Psisci / Dr. S

i think i can hear something of both sides of the issue. it sounds (by doc john's post) that psypsi is no longer posting here because firstly, he requested that his account be deleted and because secondly, he posted under multiple posting names (which is against the rules of this site).

but then we go back to *why* he requested his account to be deleted...

i want to say this again (very gently) psypsi doesn't need rescuing, drunksunflower. i know you are trying to be a friend to him but it is possible for you to support him and be a good friend to him without raging against his alleged persecutors. it can be hard (harder with some people than with others) but you can be a good friend to someone without agreeing with everything they say. i'd imagine that he is hurting right now and it is good to know that he has friends who can support him.

i also see the other side of things, however. i did think that he often presented his information in a rather authoratarian manner. if someone disagreed with him (or brought other options onto the table) then he was liable to lash out berating people for their ignorance and stupidity. not just on this board either. i've seen him interact with professionals on other boards and i've seen the same thing happen over there.

i guess that my thought on this is that people post to boards because they want to get something out of it. of course it was kind of him to come here and offer his opinion on medications and the like (there are ethical concerns around that - e.g., if he advises a medication that someone has a reaction to and they sue - but that is another topic, i guess). i would imagine that he was posting here doing that because he wanted to get something out of it too, however.

expectations...

when our expectations aren't met rage can ensue.

EVERYBODY has got their own issues.

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DocJohn said:
Well, yes and no. *How* someone answers a question is one measure, but how they respond to people who disagree with them (since there is no "Right Answer" in many issues with respect to psychiatric drugs) is also important and shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant. It is very relevant to people who often feel like they are not being heard by the professionals they interact with.

DocJohn

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Thank you.

gg

> poke poke prod prod anyone enough and they won't always act in the manner most appropriate to the situation or to the best of their character.

yes, that is most certainly true. it reminds me of something that i'm thinking about a lot at the moment, actually. seperation individuation otherwise known as the 'terrible twos'. it is a time when an infant is trying to assert their own identity aside from their mother. that involves them leaving mothers side and exploring the world and returning periodically to refuel. the emergence of 'no'.

it is meant to be a hard time all around (for the infant and for the mother). very trying. whatever attachment pathology our mothers had (and lets face it nobody is perfect, everybody has got issues) is likely to come to the fore because the terrible twos is a stressful time all round.

some people will test. why? because seperation individation wasn't such a good time for them so they repeat the cycle round and round hoping for a different ending. i know you aren't so keen on psychodynamic theory but attachment theory has been plugged into developmental (experimental) psychology too and so it is a phenomena that seems to be acknowledged all round.

if you see how people respond under stress then you get to know them fairly well indeed. that is (to me anyway) part of the appeal of reality tv such as 'big brother' and 'survivor' and 'the biggest loser'.

when someone who has seperation individuation issues (like me) and who tends to be oppositional (i disagree because i'm asserting my own identity my difference from you!) meets someone who tends to be authoratarian (i'm right because i have many years of experience!) then there can be hurts all around, that is true.

part of it seems to come down to who started it.
did posters start it by posting inappropriate things to him...
did he start it by posting inappropriate things to posters...
you know what?
i don't think that matters.
it is more about round and round and round and round we go
BUT:
the cycle has to stop somewhere.
it has to stop.

maybe a different ending can't be provided but the cycle has to stop somewhere.
maybe this is unfair... maybe it is...
but we expect better from health professionals.
it isn't about fault so much as clash of the issues.
but we expect better from health professionals.

unless psypsi only wants to work with clients who disown themselves and idealise him...

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alexandra_k said:

part of it seems to come down to who started it.
did posters start it by posting inappropriate things to him...
did he start it by posting inappropriate things to posters...
you know what?
i don't think that matters.
...
but we expect better from health professionals.
it isn't about fault so much as clash of the issues.
but we expect better from health professionals.

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Absolutely!

gg

which is why sometimes i clash with you.

it is important to remember peoples humanity too...

it IS hard.

((gg))

While I realize there seems to be a line drawn in the sand here and people are begging others to step over that line, I prefer to take the middle road with feet planted on both sides.

I too have been somewhat taken back by the tone that psisci has taken in some of his posts and in chat. I realize that people deal differently when push comes to shove but I do expect professionals to act as professionals in all dealings with folks here. That is my expectation and people may disagree with it. That's ok, I respect their opinions even if I might disagree with them.

I will also come to psicsi's defence in one aspect of last nights chat. He did make a rude comment and I called him on it, politely of course. He did apologize for his choice of words. For that, I appreciate very much.

That being said, I also feel that what happened last night was not for the good of the community at large. Being angry and upset and hurt is one thing, but for a professional to lash out as he has in the way he has, to me is unacceptable. There are other avenues he could have taken to make himself be heard.

I do not deny that he has helped many folks here. I'm glad he was able to do that and I'm sure those folks appreciate his help immensely. I too thanked him for the good he did here.

In light of the situation, I do so hope that we can calm down and get back to the business at hand of seeking and finding help, finding and making friends and giving everyone a little breathing room to recover from this situation.

I respect you all for your opinions and pray that we can all get through this together.

Take good care!
Hugssss
J

Sabau! Kinda sorry I missed all the ruckus in last night's chat. I would have been in the thick of it, no doubt!
Patty

there was no ruckus in chat last night that I saw. maybe it happened after I left. I also never went into the drug questions forum either so I can't really comment on the other issues at hand.

We are all human, yet we strive to do what we can with what we know. I think Dr Wylie did this also.
Thank you psisci for your assistance! TC and be well.

It can become difficult at times within an unfamiliar environment. Some professionals are sheltered from the constant give and take and take of the real world. Many professionals (no matter what the field) are used to being treated with respect simply for their expertise. When questioned, they might not respond the way others expect them to, thus the "we are all human" comment. I really didn't know psisci well, but I know he meant well. Let's wish him well, and thank him for all the help he gave us. He spent some 7 months here I think, and helped many members with his information, time and energy.

Before him we had Cam W, and a few members here also with some drug help. I'm just sorry psisci didn't work out. He will be missed.

I'm sure Dr Grohol understands the need for this help here, and he will find someone to provide it. If you have a problem with your medicine, or a question, write down the information or document the occurrences of the problems so that when Dr Grohol does find someone, you'll be ready.

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alexandra_k said:

i want to say this again (very gently) psypsi doesn't need rescuing, drunksunflower. i know you are trying to be a friend to him but it is possible for you to support him and be a good friend to him without raging against his alleged persecutors. it can be hard (harder with some people than with others) but you can be a good friend to someone without agreeing with everything they say. i'd imagine that he is hurting right now and it is good to know that he has friends who can support him.


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Alex, that's a really nicely thought out post, but do you really think I do not have my own mind? Do you think that I'm sticking up for Scott because oh I don't know, he helped me out on a few issues and I feel such intense loyalty that I have to defend him even though I know he's completely in the wrong?

I don't. I am stating my interpretation of this bizzo. I never said that psisci is perfect. But I think other people on this site have a fair bit to answer for as well, and I don't agree with the way that things panned out for him.

I appreciate your post, but I also wanted to clear up any misunderstandings

Nice posting Sky

Thanks DSF. We all reach our breaking points, and need support at those times. It is unfortunate when professionals find themselves unsupported (or feel so.) No one deserves that.

> do you really think I do not have my own mind? Do you think that I'm sticking up for Scott because oh I don't know, he helped me out on a few issues and I feel such intense loyalty that I have to defend him even though I know he's completely in the wrong?

i know you have your own mind :-)

i'm not at all saying that he is completely in the wrong. i think it is an unfortunate situation all round.

often people do think that in order to be a friend to someone they need to defend them in the face of their alledged 'persecutors', however. i just meant to say that very gently and it is up to you what you choose to do with it.

Everyone is so tied up in Scott's 'lack of professionalism'.

Actually, I think he was very professional a lot of the time too. Certainly the quality of advice was top notch.

One thing about an online community is, unfortunately, that in a situation like this people can be very 'take, take, take'.

I am not going to apologise for holding the view that the advice and direction and information that people received from Scott over the past 7 months or so was given out of generosity of spirit. Yes, that's right, he volunteered here. Maybe he tripped up a few times in his manner of communication. But what stands out to me is that someone made the effort to make themselves available to help who? ... ALL OF YOU.

Yes ...

Everyone here had access to him for information, which normally, you'd have to go to your doc or psyc or whatever to get. He gave up time for chats, he checked the site multiple times per day to be here so people would see him as a real resource. Don't even mention the emotional vampirism that occurred just because he's a psychologist. I don't know the contents of his entire PMs box, but I can assure you that it wasn't always pretty.

Life is all about tradeoffs. You can't have it all ways.

I find there is a real lack of appreciation for what DID go right during Scott's time on this board. It's all about what didn't. And that, my dear people, is the pity of it all.

Lambast me for saying what I just did, feel free - I'm not going to get upset for speaking my views.

I'm happy to receive PMs if people don't want to say their thoughts in this thread.

Seriously. I am disappointed in the overall response here. People raise some valid points, but they also seem to at times be a bit shortsighted about the overarching picture here. It is VERY easy to focus on the negatives in this situation.

I still believe that if someone here received something of value from Scott's time here, and they are moaning and groaning over some lapses of manners, then they should be ashamed.

peace.

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alexandra_k said:
> i know you have your own mind :-)

i'm not at all saying that he is completely in the wrong. i think it is an unfortunate situation all round.

often people do think that in order to be a friend to someone they need to defend them in the face of their alledged 'persecutors', however. i just meant to say that very gently and it is up to you what you choose to do with it.

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Okay, thank you.

But you know, there are always multiple sides to any story. I acknowledge that myself.

I just don't believe in some of the BS I have read about the situation ... it's not right ...

I think it is a shame that a doctor who put in his own time to help others here with their medication questions has been run out based on what appears to be personality conflicts. I dont like many doctors ill admit and i only asked him one question which he answered, but there are not that many doctors out there looking to give some help or guidance for free. I would be surprised if another doctor comes along and jumps with both feet into this trial by fire, after reading some of the posts. It is a shame for those who wanted to ask him for his advice and now cant.

We could discuss the details, etc., from here out. However, there's one bottom line for me...

professional or not, inappropriate or inappropriate *but*...

Scott was a member of a support community. As a member of *this* support community, his actions were inappropriate not on one, two, several, but many occasions.

I'll use myself as an example...

I can't blame others for my bad behavior. OK, well I'm exaggerating. I might be able to get away with it a time or two, but that's it. Pretty soon, after time and time again or involving myself in bad behavior(s) with others, the common denominator has to be looked at...*me*.

I'm with Sky...those that can thank him and wish him well, please do; those that can't, please keep on a keepin' on.

Thanks,

KD

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heyjoe said:
I think it is a shame that a doctor who put in his own time to help others here with their medication questions has been run out based on what appears to be personality conflicts. I dont like many doctors ill admit and i only asked him one question which he answered, but there are not that many doctors out there looking to give some help or guidance for free. I would be surprised if another doctor comes along and jumps with both feet into this trial by fire, after reading some of the posts. It is a shame for those who wanted to ask him for his advice and now cant.

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heyjoe, if you or anyone else would like his email address please PM me He is happy to help with a few questions still via that channel.

And that's a really spot-on post

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kimmydawn said:
We could discuss the details, etc., from here out. However, there's one bottom line for me...

professional or not, inappropriate or inappropriate *but*...

Scott was a member of a support community. As a member of *this* support community, his actions were inappropriate not on one, two, several, but many occasions.

I'll use myself as an example...

I can't blame others for my bad behavior. OK, well I'm exaggerating. I might be able to get away with it a time or two, but that's it. Pretty soon, after time and time again or involving myself in bad behavior(s) with others, the common denominator has to be looked at...*me*.

I'm with Sky...those that can thank him and wish him well, please do; those that can't, please keep on a keepin' on.

Thanks,

KD

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kimmy, I completely understand where you are coming from in terms of 'common denominator', and I think as a rule of life that is often a sensible one to consider.

I have a question for you though. Did Scott ever give you a hand with advice? Did he give you some of his pretty valuable, tightly stretched time, to help with anything in your own life?

IF he did, and I have no idea obviously, then he could be said to have SUPPORTED you. Even though in other ways he may not have been the perfect PC member ... MANY of us mess up, some of us (me for example) more than others.

But IMO, support comes in a lot of forms, and I don't think it's fair to class him as unsupportive, when in fact he supported a LOT of people here in his own way. Which, I might add, was pretty invaluable for many of us.

> I still believe that if someone here received something of value from Scott's time here, and they are moaning and groaning over some lapses of manners, then they should be ashamed.

well...

i receive something of value from every member here. people post their experience and i can identify with that and feel less alone. people post about things that they know about and i learn something new.

i still don't think that that excuses members lashing out at others. it doesn't excuse it.

and i don't think that people should feel ashamed of feeling upset about bad manners, either.

it was his decision to leave. i don't think we should forget that.

i hope that in time he chooses to come back. and i hope that in time... he is better able to refrain from lashing out at others when he perceives that they aren't giving him the reverence / appreciation that he expects in exchange for his time.

DSF,

We're going back and forth on the same issues.

We hear you and I understand what you're saying. He did help with answering questions. That's understood.

You feel the "trade" was worth it. I get that. I understand that from your POV. From my chair I have a different POV. We need to remember that there is more that occurred than just a few inappropriate comments.

We'll have to agree to disagree and let it rest, especially at this point.

Scott is no longer with PC. We wish him well and success.

Thanks,

KD

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alexandra_k said:

i receive something of value from every member here. people post their experience and i can identify with that and feel less alone. people post about things that they know about and i learn something new.

i still don't think that that excuses members lashing out at others. it doesn't excuse it.

and i don't think that people should feel ashamed of feeling upset about bad manners, either.

it was his decision to leave. i don't think we should forget that.

i hope that in time he chooses to come back. and i hope that in time... he is better able to refrain from lashing out at others when he perceives that they aren't giving him the reverence / appreciation that he expects in exchange for his time.

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I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think he ever wanted reverence. And a lot of people did show their appreciation.

Just a shame there often wasn't a lot of respect.

And I'm not sure, from John's post, that there was too much choice about staying / going in the end ... or even at the start ...