Support or... honest critique?

I'll try to make this brief...

I principally come here just to, well, "talk" to someone, but I never expect a reply, suggestion, etc.

Surprisingly, I had a great suggestion today from one of my posts. A post that offered a personal experience as a possible solution to a dilemma that I've been having. A wonderful and helpful suggestion that I will implement tomorrow.

So whilst rooting around the forums, I came across the post of a new member that was so contradictory, writing of how wonderful his life, but in the following paragraphs he wrote things contrary to the "I love my life," statements.

No need to find the thread, I'll just say that my reply wasn't what would normally be thought of a reply of "support". It was, however, honest. I pointed out the contradictions in what he had written. As he had praised himself so much, what he described was anything but healthy, and I challenged him to be self-critical (as in judging well, not severely) for a moment. I posted the message.

Then I read it again. As I said, it wasn't a usual message of support: not a "hang in there," "be good to yourself," etc. But even with a sixth reading of his message and a third of mine, I couldn't find anything to change in my message and that led me to wonder...

...is it okay to offer healthy criticism here or should we limit ourselves to upbeat support phrases?

Personally, I would hope that if I wrote a message on here saying that I loved all animals and then, a few sentences later, saying that my main hobby was the vivisection of kittens, that someone would call me out and tell me that my one statement seemed contrary to my practice.

Any thoughts?

I don't think that people come to this site for a telling off, or "healthy criticism".

Most the time, I try to think what the person's reaction would be, upon reading the reply I wrote.

Sometimes I come as far as writing a lengthy and detailed response, then just before I press the "Post" button I realize that I am not "Mr Know It All", that every person who created an account in this site did so for a very special reason, that I don't know really what's on that person;s mind to make him/her write what he/she wrote, and also that it would be thoughtless, at the very least, to presume that whatever I write back will "open that person's eyes", and that what I think is in fact the reality of what they are going through.

But then again, what do I know...

No, you offer points that I thought of before I let my post stand.

I don't, by any means, believe that "telling off" and "healthy criticism" are the same thing, however. If I had felt, at all, that I was reprimanding the poster, I would have deleted my post.

And I didn't need to make any assumptions about what was written. The contrary statements were largely, but not entirely, "black is white," "red is blue," statements. And I know that there are those who may truly believe that red is blue, may structure their lives around their perception but... if they come here and we don't want to appear as a "Mr. Know It All," is it our place to play "Mr. Know Nothing" and agree that red is blue, to forget what the poster wrote ang glibly post a sort of "Have a nice day! " encouragement, critique the reasoning, or just delete anything you may have written because it would be "thoughtless" to point out in-your-face contradictions?

I have never thought of "support" as blindly encouraging. I am crazy. I have been for almost twenty years. But when I'm in conversation with my dead father it doesn't take me long to recognise that I'm having a delusional episode again. I would hope that if I came here, writing randomly as I do, and began writing about my dead father and talking of our wonderful daily conversations, that SOMEONE would have the guts to point out the contradiction instead of letting it slide because they don't know me well enough.

I do think, though, that the majority here share your opinion. That we are not here to try to help others that come here because we don't know their reasons and we're not professionals. And asking "what are we here for" is implicit in my question.

You did a good job of explaining why one shouldn't respond to a post but nothing to suggest why you would respond. I don't know you, I don't follow anyone here, but am I to assume that because you "really don't know" what's going on in someone else's mind that you don't respond at all?

God knows I am not trying to start any dissension. I'm trying to figure out the "rules". I know that I first came here because I am close, again, to insanity. I am dreadfully lonely, confined to my room for both mental and physical reasons, on and on. At present, my mind is twisted but not broken. I have periods of delusions, loss of lucidity, memory loss, etc. But I am lucid now and asking a question.

I have no idea if anyone else will reply, but thank you for yours.

I don't believe support should always be wrapped in a pretty bow.


That's just not realistic for certain situations.

Imagine an abused woman is posting about how her hubby beat her to a pulp yet again, but its ok really, its all her fault this time around because his dinner wasn't ready when he walked through the door...


What am I supposed to say to that? "Its ok hun, go ice your face, put on some make up and be sure to start half an hour earlier tomorrow." ???

IS THAT SUPPORT????


Because if it is, then I certainly don't want it!!!!


Its also important to take into consideration, that sometimes the bows are distracting and the support is then completely overlooked.


That being said, its not a very popular approach and not really welcomed by many.


Not everyone can stomach info minus sugar coating.


What did Mary Poppins sing... "Just a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down...."


But the mods haven't chased me (or others) off as they understand that just because it isn't a and a "there there" doesn't mean it wasn't supportive or that it was sent with malicious intent.


I think that if you're brave enough to open yourself up to this kind of community, you have to be brave enough to come across some ugly truths. Truths that others may be able to see clearer than you, not because they're a Mr Know It All, not because you're in denial, but because they've either walked an extremely similar path, or can simply see the trees beyond the leaves.


And I'll say this, for all the people that have given me flack, accused me of being harsh, or direct or too blunt, and almost made me feel bad for my posting style and have me second guessing myself....


Its worth it when every once in a while, a member goes, "wow, I appreciate you being straight with me, you've given me food for thought, thanks".


They make it all worth it.

But I do, that's why I wrote so. I have had plenty of people in my life who used the term "Healthy Criticism" when emotionally abusing me, so I am talking out of experience.

"Healthy criticism" or "constructive criticism" are terms that triggers me somehow. I see red when people use it. Go figure... maybe one more reason why I'm making use of this site.

I prefer to simply admit that I don't have all the answers or enough knowledge or experience to pitch in.

Sometimes, "Have a nice day" is all the person on the other side really needs to hear (or read). So I try to restrain myself to that answer.

I try to only answer to posts when I can relate to what the person is talking about, and when I can share my experiences, sometimes as an attempt to help myself too, maybe exchange some ideas, maybe get something useful out of it in the end.

I don't know how to fix everything I see and everything I think is wrong.

And in answering to your post, I think I proved my own point.

I didn't know nothing of what you're going through, and like you, most people simply don't reveal their struggles until after someone throws in an answer, so in this case I would be better off just skipping your post rather than answer to it.

I commited this mistake many times, and it seems I never learn...

Anyway, what is done is done, and I'm sorry if I disturbed or made you angry you in any way.

Fortunately, the poster understood my intention and responded with a really upbeat message.

Must go shower...

holding a mirror up is healthy support. As long as it is respectful. Having different perspectives and opinions is part of life and what makes PC work.

My screensaver on my computer is this:

tumblr_m17mecJaWW1qf58sfo1_500.jpg

I do my best to live up to it. I am not always successful but when I fail, I try to remember to apologize.

I am fine with someone honestly telling me anything at all. Some people can not handle it and report it. I have been warned in several cases.

I think some people will take it and think about it and others don't.

Everything tripping said I agree with. It does no one any good to keep "helping" them pull wool over their eyes
I think the way to do it is common sense....obviously not in a way that's mean for the sake of it

I don't believe in support always being fluffy and candy coated.
Some people need to hear the hard truth to open their eyes, but one should use discretion for when to be honest and straightforward and when to simply pat someone on the shoulder and tell them you're there to listen.

Agreed. And sometimes it is hard to tell who can be open enough to hear the truth.

yagr,

It is so strange that your message is the first that I read upon opening my iPad this morning.

Yesterday as I sat in my psychopharmacologist's office a sign of about 3 feet tall and 2 feet wide hung on the wall across from me with those exact words. Strange that I should see them back to back like this.

I almost had to stifle a laugh when I saw them yesterday because my pp is ANYTHING BUT any single one of those things. She has lied to me on multiple occasions, she is so far from helpful that she "forgot" to call in a Seroquel refill so I was in withdrawal for a week (despite daily messages left by me and my pharmacy), she could bring Superman down with her negativity, she is quick with a roll of the eyes and even quicker with a dismissive remark (my favorite yesterday : "well, we don't always get what we want in life." Um, I never even came close to insinuating that we did?) and at least one of her colleagues refers to her as a "rattlesnake" and that's a good description of the type of kindness that she practices. She's 28 years old and seems to be in a constant state of fury.

So you see why I almost laughed when I saw the sign yesterday. It's new, never been there before, and I wondered if she had purchased the sign as a reminder to herself or if a colleague may have brought it in.

When I read your message I felt a bit embarrassed. Because the sentiments on the sign are all extraordinarily important and the final summation common sense. I'm one of those people who is usually quick to give others a break, if for no other reason that I know my own faults so well (and wallow in them minute by minute). So should I cast a stone?

Well. Yes, sometimes I think I should. When I'm told a lie, I should answer with the truth. When I hear or see someone being meaningfully hurtful, even to myself, I need to offer help by calling that person out. No need to go on.

Sometimes ya gotta be cruel to be kind.

I don't literally mean that, of course – it's just a jingoistic lyric that, stabbingly, makes a point (pun). The most important part of that sign is in the first question but I would replace the word true with "honest," because, honestly, one may not see the same as true as another. But honesty is something that both sides in a courtroom need prove – proof of lies on one side is usually a sure victory for the other.

Each can read those five words and a crowd can come away with one hundred different answers. Spare the rod? Let him dangle? You say tomato?

I cannot say that there have not been times in my life when I have believed honesty much more important than, for example, inspiration. It's honest to say, I think, that what inspires me may not inspire you. I need to wrap this up as I'm flogging the already flogged to death dead horse.

I have used words at least a dozen times in my life to shred destroy and twice as many times to maim. And I was deeply, deeply ashamed afterward. It wasn't until I was 31, in therapy, that I began to talk of these even-tempered outbreaks and that was after the last that had resulted in wholly unintended (?) consequences. We never reached any real answer but in looking at each situation I had been verbally destructive toward someone who had lied to me. I guess that I felt anyone who lied to me, or in two instances cheated on me, deserved punishment as severe as I could dish out. And I was so *******ed cold. I never raised my voice, I was never physically threatening, but I was so cold. Never feeling anger before, during or after... just a feeling that I had the right – maybe even the responsibility to myself – to somehow retrieve the trust that had been taken from me and put it back inside of me and to be whole again. As to why? Because I could. I have used my fist to hit one person one time in my life; at summer camp and with a boxing glove.

So. I have been verbally cruel in my life but not for the past 26 years. I know very well the difference between being cruel and being honest and I also know well how to be honest in an open, friendly fashion. And THAT is what I mean by honest critique. I cannot stomach the trite. As an example, I dated a woman for almost two years who was an alcoholic and attended AA meetings at least once a day. I genuinely wanted to support her and so I began to attend the meetings with her 3-4 times a week. I just couldn't stand it after a couple of months. The entire structure seemed geared toward the lowest common denominator and the phrases and Big Book stories were so repetitive and unrealistic that I just couldn't take it.

That's an example of what I mean by trite. And yet I am a faithful Roman Catholic and, until my most recent amputation, attended mass whenever possible and each and every time that I heard the most repetitive words in any mass, each time that I heard any Psalm from the Catholic Big Book, I felt a flood of emotion that I cannot describe.

Maybe the dichotomy can be answered with honesty: the wine at mass is much better than that served at AA meetings.

As you can guess by now I'm having a hypergraphic episode. As I have been writing I have been wrestling with, and losing, a battle to stay within reality. I really will wrap this up by saying that I still don't understand if honest critique is acceptable, or welcome, here or not. If I came here and complained of the blood dripping from the dead puppies hanging from my ceiling (my delusion yesterday – for weeks now they have been built around dead puppies) I would hope that someone – someone – would be honest enough to issue a reality check of some sort. I don't tend to read a lot of messages here, much less respond, but I read some messages about "dead puppies" with 90% of the responses being "turn around and give yourself a pat on the back!" And that doesn't seem like "support" to me.

Last night I had to get out of bed to help my grandmother feed my cocker spaniel, Susie. My gran died in 2002 (guess that's why she needed help) and Susie died in 1992. This didn't occur to me until I was rustling around the bottom cabinets trying to find the food and then going into a full panic attack because I was afraid that I had forgotten to buy any.

So I went from delusion to panic to just sitting in my wheelchair bawling within 20 minutes.

Let go and let God!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ValentinaVVV,

Something similar to that crossed through my mind during the night (I've not slept since last Wednesday night – drugs on the way I hope – so I've been thinking, having one or two delusions daily and going in and out of hallucinations as the minutes tick by) and it reminded me of a conversation that I had with my doc last month.

He brought up the subject of trust. I had not been completely truthful with him about a particular symptom and I admitted the truth. He said something about the importance of being truthful with him and he asked me if I trusted him. I reminded him of the sexual abuse that I went through with the second psychiatrist and of a more recent incident when my GP wrote the wrong prescriptions for me, and I told him that I didn't have blind trust in him. That I had tasted the fallibility of the medical professions and that, no matter how much it irritates him, I am going to read about any new medication before putting it in my mouth.

I don't know the demographics of the participants here but I assume that at least half are or have been some crazy Fokkers at some point, just like me. And I am in a tenuous struggle again to stay sane. And, again, I assume that others here fit in that category, too. So many of us are mentally ill and have had treatment and are aware that it's not easy. Personally, not only have I ever experienced a quick and simple fix to any mental illness, I continue to go backwards (pun). Doc asked me yesterday what I thought of 2016. I told him that it meant that I was entering my 31st year of being treated for mental illnesses. And he made me laugh with, "guess that makes you feel old."

I know that people only find these forums by searching for them and only sign up and post because of personal concerns or edification. I don't read a lot of the messages here (as I have overstated previously) but I feel that there are more milquetoast replies than helpful much of the time.

There should be, I don't know, 3-4 people that have the experience of being under mental health care that might be able to discern between those who can or cannot handle a bit of honesty. Maybe the word critique sounds too much like criti...

(YEAH!!! My psych meds were just delivered!!! As I've been writing this I've been slipping in and out of reality and I thought that someone was knocking at the door but there was no one there... but this time there was. I was out of all of my psych meds... taken now, maybe I can sleep.)

So... critique sounds too much like criticism? But a film critic or a book critic don't "criticize" movies or book in the sense of being severely judgmental, but rather they offer a knowledgeable opinion of the work. Is anyone here knowledgeable of mental illness? By God if I haven't learned something after 31 years then I've wasted a lot of time and money trying anything to, more or less, just "feel better."

It's taken me over three hours to write this and I should eat since I just took those meds. I agree that it may be difficult to discern between those who may or who may not respond well to supportive criticism, but I've yet to hear a good reason why one should not offered from time to time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi ciderguy,

I read the post that this thread is referring to, and I thought your response was excellent. It was so spot-on that I felt no need to add a reply.

I thought your advice was very supportive.

i have stopped posting in almost all the forums, even stopped reading most of them, because i am so strongly oriented towards progress, not sympathy. if you get a reply from me, you can believe that i said what i thought, not some socially correct version of what i thought you wanted to hear.

I need to add something that I believe is the key: There's nothing wrong with an honest critique AS LONG AS IT'S NOT MEAN-SPIRITED.

Your response was not mean-spirited.

Ciderguy brought up an important view point about criticism vs cirque. In classes for art or writing the best instructors use feedback from peers not to hurt but to help by presenting an other POV(point of view).

The Difference between Critique and Criticism
Criticism finds fault/Critique looks at structure
Criticism looks for what's lacking/Critique finds what's working
Criticism condemns what it doesn't understand/Critique asks for clarification
Criticism is spoken with a cruel wit and sarcastic tongue/Critique's voice is kind, honest, and objective
Criticism is negative/Critique is positive (even about what isn't working)
Criticism is vague and general/Critique is concrete and specific
Criticism has no sense of humor/Critique insists on laughter, too
Criticism looks for flaws in the writer as well as the writing/Critique addresses only what is on the page

I struggle with inconsistencies.

The one I come across most is this. A person describes horribly abusive parents, and then says 'I know they love me'

And ya know what I want to say?

'Wake up, they do not love you at all, who are you kidding!! they are unfeeling narcissist/sociopathic/psychopathic b###ards!! They are not capable of love.'

Personally I spent a life time trying to be good trying to ingratiate myself, always desperately desperately trying to please mother. If only I was good enough, worked hard enough mother would love me
Right?

WRONG.

One day I sat and googled something I just could not understand.
Why does my mother hate me?
A website popped up.
Daughters of narcissistic mothers I ignored it, nothing to do with me.

Then it popped up again and I started to read.
An epiphany.
I recognized my mother. My mother was one of these. Mother was a narcissist!

My mother was incapable of love, my mother did not love me and never would.

I wasn't upset I was relieved so relieved! None of this was my fault, I was not faulty! She was. That cold, spiteful, self absorbed, lying, manipulating b##ch was faulty not me.
No longer would I tie myself into knots trying to please this creature who was impossible to please. It had all been a waste of effort and time. There was no love to earn, she was incapable of love.

And because it was a relief for me to be aware of the truth I want to inform others.
You get people ranting on about 'wonderful' parents who then go on to describe nothing but abuse.

But I don't tell them. I guess they don't want the truth. Its too painful.

When I found out what mother was I cried for a month.
I was unloved.
But then I felt better, free. I didn't have to bother with her any more.

I tend to use personal experiences as examples or questions that bring about thought that is not in the line of thinking that goes withbthebdirection of the poster.

I'm with Tripping & Gus....in now going to continue to read without saying something when I see the person hurting themselves or destroying their life.....& give them a "poor baby" reply. Yep some report....most don't. I take being honest in a kind way. If I can't figure out how I don't botherntonreply at all.......& then there are some who counter EVERYTHING You say with their reason for WHY....just like I used to do worth my psychologist before I was finally able to break down the wall. After so long....I just don't bother any longer...not worth my time or effort to try & get them to understand....can only say the same thing so many ways before you realize it's a WASTE OF TIME.