[Michael2Wolves]

Yes, that's right. ITT we discuss ways to resist what I perceive to be the human tendency to slip into despair when we invariably wind up, mentally, at the door of existential nihilism.

A bit of backstory. I have never picked up a single philosophy book, and sort of arrived on my own at similar conclusions that existential nihilists propose for their schools of philosophical thought, especially those of Nietzsche, from the little I've read. Due to life experiences, I sort of figured out on my own that life has zero meaning, that there is no ultimate truth, and that nothing we do has any significance whatsoever.

This is not a place I want to be. I don't want to be an existential nihilist; yet, what other choice is there for the rational mind with too much time on its hands to ponder questions that should probably never be pondered? It's like peeking into a Pandora's Box. What is seen can never be unseen, what is experienced stays with us forever.

The terrifiying feeling of being dragged, forcibly, to the brink of Nietzsche's abyss, and then made to gaze in until it finally gazes back into me, has been traumatic to say the least. It is unwanted and intrusive. It probably also has something to do with my OCPD and PTSD, but that doesn't matter because the path by which I arrived at this point is not important. The fact that I have come to this point at all is what disturbs me more.

How does one resist that darkness and back away from the edge of existential nihilism? For me, existentialism is a cancer to be carved out--I am incapable of giving my life meaning myself because that rage inside of me demands that my life be one long act of self-flagellatory, masochistic suffering to atone for where I feel I fell short of my own expectations. Now that most of my life is over, I have nothing but regrets and nostalgia.

This quest has lead me to uncover the Pattern, a mathematical symmetry to life that I keep finding repeats, like certain numbers, certain occurences, certain circumstances...and it certainly feels as though that symmetry is generated externally and not a product of my overactive amygdala (the part of the brain responsible for pattern recognition). I have driven myself to distration and neuroticism in my quest for the ultimate truth that seems ever more elusive.

This has boiled down to:

1. What is reality?
2. Does God exist, and if so, what is His absolute nature?
3. Why has consciousness evolved?
4. What is the ultimate fate of ourselves, and this universe?

Because from the way it's looking to me, life is nothing but a joke.

[amicus_curiae]

Quickly:

1. Neurological processes, the quaint nature of synapses; nothing more, nothing less.
2. No.
3. Darwinian evolution — cut, yea, dried, science.
4. Ourselves? A fast track to nothing. The universe? Who knows? I like the idea of multiverses that are born of dense energy and matter and that expand and contract and which overlap and collide. But honestly? We, as a race, are going to become extinct before solving universal puzzles.

Well, no. A joke assumes a narrator, of sorts, and a created narrative. Life is so much less than a joke. And so much more in it’s random abandon and it’s evolutionary nature. Confusing philosophy and astrophysics or astrophysics with philosophy begets another Tower of Babel with no common languages or alphabets.

The best that we can do, as we live and die, is to be kind to one another.

Everything else is a hobby.

[Michael2Wolves]

What a terrifyingly lonely and pointless existence we all live, then. We are all solipsists at the end, then, because when we die, when the us inside our heads dies, it's as though the universe ends.

If there is no point to life other than what meaning we give it, then I have no life in me because I have no meaning to give life anymore--I have nothing to offer anyone. Used up, burned out, and bitter at 38. Nothing is meaningful anymore; I have become, therefore, the ultimate cynic. Jaded to the point of no return.

We each owe a death--there are no exceptions--but oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long.

[ShadowGX]

The thing is, no one can be 100% sure on any of those questions... As decisive as some might seem in their answers, they too don't know the full story. Life could be entirely pointless, or it could have meaning we just can't understand in our limited capability as humans. We're always learning new things about the world and life as we know it.

I have no real answer for you, just that I think we need to try to find our own place in the world and not worry about any divine plans that we'll likely never know about if they exist.

[marvin_pa]

1. Increasingly, I believe that it's what you voluntarily/involuntary make of it
2. Yes, if only only to have ultimate responsibility for providing answers to the unanswerable.
3. I take it to be possible proof of #2 & that the almighty likely possesses a sense of humor.
4. Cosmic stardust for both.

[Michael2Wolves]

No, no one can be certain, but I keep getting this mental itch to seek, and the more I explore that inner space, the more I get this feeling that I am this close to understanding the entirety of it. It's like that feeling you get when you're trying to remember something, and it's right there at the periphery, but you can't quite grasp it.

It's not necessarily about divine plans; it's to know with certainty as to whether there is some thing beyond that gives meaning and context for human existence. I do not believe life on earth happened by chance--the mathematical odds for such an occurence are so astronomical to be almost impossible. There are over two hundred variables that must be exactly right to form life.

But it comes down to the fact that I can find no meaning in my life beyond others' need for me. I saw an insight I wasn't ready for, I think, and now, all I hear are its echoes in my head.

For example: When I die, the universe itself might as well be dying with me because it will all be the same to me. This is why I said that we're all solipsists in the end. Worse, I've squandered my life, and that will haunt my thoughts every day for whatever is left, and will probably flit through my dying brain with capricious glee at the end.

This is the despair that I refer to when I titled this thread Resisting Existential Nihilism. What else could I call it?

[DechanDawa]

Sounds like social isolation.

[amicus_curiae]

Well, yes, when our brains and bodies cease functioning ‘our’ universe (what extraordinarily little we’ve known of it) dies with us. By no means does that make the years that we’re here pointless or lonely (terrifying, yes, but not all terrible). You seem to feel that only a god-given destiny of some kind gives meaning to life but that’s not tenable. Even we have obscenely limited power in determining the ‘meaning’ of our lives, much less any type of overarching, universal meaning. It may have been (but probably wasn’t) Bertrand Russell who said that we have to accept that the world is a horrible, horrible place before we can be happy.

I’m quite proud of my cynicism, really. It’s ingrained in us, I think, in our gray and white matter as ‘self-preservation’ and likely helps in our selection of mates (amongst a host of other primal — and not-so-primal — decisions).

Of course you have something to offer others! You made me think, you made me write; you offered those same chances (pun) to thousands of others. Pretty phenomenal, yes?

I swear I’ll not resort to the banal.

We are evolutionary creatures. And completely and wholly random. Yet each different from one another — think Kinsey and his massive collection of millions of gall wasps. Each. One. Different. From. Others. We are constantly evolving. Human apes. If we procreate, we pass evolved mutated genetic material onto our offspring.

You want meaning? You really need others, I learned. As a hermit I only thought of the cruel hand I’d been dealt by chance. And the cruelty that I’d dealt festered and I believed myself to be the model for evil. I don’t know how I rid myself of agoraphobia — maybe placing one fear above another? — but I have found happiness in and with others again and I am, minute-by-minute, constructing a thesis that might explain why.

I think that meaning is a construction, too. Oh, I don’t believe in self-assigned meaning to any great degree! I think that others construct our meaning and it’s reflected back upon us, a gift (sometimes unwanted and unwarranted) given from other apes. If we have a conscience I think that we might practice kindness and evaluate the reflections that we receive.

If you’re capable of recording what you are, you’re capable of determining what you’d prefer to be. There’s no destiny guiding you and the impediments may be great but to escape the need for gods you can have the energy to construct your own “immortality project.” (Becker)

[ShadowGX]

Originally Posted by Michael2Wolves

No, no one can be certain, but I keep getting this mental itch to seek, and the more I explore that inner space, the more I get this feeling that I am this close to understanding the entirety of it. It's like that feeling you get when you're trying to remember something, and it's right there at the periphery, but you can't quite grasp it.

Mhm, I've always been very curious about it as well, but like... How do you even find these answers? I mean, there's the scientific view of course, but science doesn't know it all (sorry science, you're still learning too) and there's definite flaws in all religions... I've just sort of been piecing together what I "feel" is right and while I definitely don't think I know everything I think I have a better grasp on it than most people do who just believe what someone else tells them to. =\ It's a tough topic for sure.

[DechanDawa]

Buddhism proposes that emptiness is not a void. It is what remains when all thought and conjecture are removed. The "is-ness" of emptiness is reality, according to the Lamas. Well, Buddhism can be fun to study and can provide relief from the bleakness of nihilism.

[avlady]

life is love i think and we are here to help each other i think too. i go nuts when i try to answer your questions, have no idea about the reasons why some things happen, but sometimes i see God's humor in life alot.

[Michael2Wolves]

It is socially isolating, because how can you relate to people when you know that ultimately, you will face the end, like they themselves, alone? Moreover, there is a fear of contagion: that these ideas are somehow contagious and will yet cause others to suffer from the same doubts if I give them voice to release the psychic pressure from my own mind.

The Buddhist and Taoist ideals have been kind of a driving force for me, especially Taoism, with its duality reflective of the binary nature of reality. I learned a little about the original Buddha on PBS and how he had a very similar line of questioning that lead him from one yogi to another in search of ultimate truth.

But all of this comes down to, how do you resist that despair after such a starkly terrifying and bleak insight? How does one cope with absolute nothingness? How do you overcome that visceral fear so that you can actually go one with your life?

Or maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way because it's part of my OCPD where I've just found something to obsess over that is the ultimate obsession--the obsession that can never be overcome? It seems like as the periphery of my circle of knowledge expands, I realize more and more how little I actually know, and that in itself is rather disturbing.

[marvin_pa]

Originally Posted by Michael2Wolves

But all of this comes down to, how do you resist that despair after such a starkly terrifying and bleak insight? How does one cope with absolute nothingness? How do you overcome that visceral fear so that you can actually go one with your life?

As something that I've probably spent waaaaay too much time pondering, the conclusion (such that it is) that I've thus far reached matches your own observation that the more one learns, the more one realizes that your understanding of the great scheme of things is likely minimal.

However, that sense that each step I take brings me one increment closer to grasping some greater handle on that entirety, is something that I find ultimately drives me onwards, rather than causing paralysis over the apparent hopelessness of ever gaining full understanding.

What makes life/existence/consciousness both simultaneously terrifying & fascinating is the simple fact that I don't have the answers. If there is a point, surely finding those answers as they pertain to you, must be it?

[DechanDawa]

I remember a story about someone who asked the Buddha a very complicated question and in response he handed the questioner a flower and smiled. That was it.

For me, life if often so very painful on all levels, a lot more giving and receiving of flowers might be the "temporary" answer.

This has been a interesting thread. I have enjoyed following it.

[Michael2Wolves]

I get that shifting my focus would probably be healthier than obsessing over something I can't control; however, it feels like by doing so, I'll just be burying my head in the sand and ignoring the frightening reality of the situation for the sake of temporal expediency. I think that is one of the reasons I searched previously so hard for a partner--to one distract myself by focusing on the needs of another, and two to ensure that I'm not wasting my life worrying about what I'm missing out on.

[marvin_pa]

Originally Posted by Michael2Wolves

I get that shifting my focus would probably be healthier than obsessing over something I can't control; however, it feels like by doing so, I'll just be burying my head in the sand and ignoring the frightening reality of the situation for the sake of temporal expediency. I think that is one of the reasons I searched previously so hard for a partner--to one distract myself by focusing on the needs of another, and two to ensure that I'm not wasting my life worrying about what I'm missing out on.

I think that to a greater/lesser degree, concentrating on the moment (or at least a smaller window of reality) is the way you have to go. Life's unanswerables/unfinished business are too large a bite to chew/deal with in one go.

[Michael2Wolves]

Unfortunately, I'm obsessive/neurotic, so not focusing on the bigger picture isn't realy an option, and the one thing I had going that was helping (my gf) I no longer have, so...yeah...

[marvin_pa]

Originally Posted by Michael2Wolves

Unfortunately, I'm obsessive/neurotic, so not focusing on the bigger picture isn't realy an option, and the one thing I had going that was helping (my gf) I no longer have, so...yeah...

Try thinking of it as focusing on a small portion of that bigger picture - it's still the same picture, but at higher resolution/detail. Those details are less a distraction, instead being more relatable/tactile elements that you can grab hold of & work with.

[dlantern]

What do you think about clones and humanoids? Multiple personality disorder ptsd and also gangstalking?....Similar theories here right?

[Michael2Wolves]

Um...no? I think?


I speak only of the inevitable realization of mortality, the abyss below us as we cling to the ceiling. The fact that at the end of our lives, we realize we are alone and when we die, so might as well the world because for us, it's as if it doesn't exist anymore because we, in fact, cease to exist.

How can anyone not gaze long into that particular abyss and not taste madness?

[marvin_pa]

Originally Posted by Michael2Wolves

Um...no? I think?


I speak only of the inevitable realization of mortality, the abyss below us as we cling to the ceiling. The fact that at the end of our lives, we realize we are alone and when we die, so might as well the world because for us, it's as if it doesn't exist anymore because we, in fact, cease to exist.

How can anyone not gaze long into that particular abyss and not taste madness?

At the risk of sounding glib, I eventually concluded that the absolute finality of that scenario was in a way, comforting. Game over, no more worries about losing your save points, or screwing up boss battle #9...

Personally, the hard thing to deal with is that consciousness is seemingly a singular experience that cannot (barring events currently considered paranormal/afterlife) be directly shared with another sentient soul. On the other hand, having that ability to directly experience another's consciousness has already been explored in the realm of sci-fi & comes with it's own set of pitfalls...

[Michael2Wolves]

I think the closest we can come is through the absolute love of another where our thoughts transform from selfish desire to ones of selflessness. When we lose that, perhaps it hurts so badly because in that moment, we glimpse paradise only as it's moving away from us, and only then are we cognizant of its loss.

The most disturbing theory I've heard yet on the nature of existence is that everyone of us is the same person having a different dream, which begs the question, which one of us is the one dreaming, and which of us is the dream?

[amicus_curiae]

Originally Posted by ShadowGX

Mhm, I've always been very curious about it as well, but like... How do you even find these answers? I mean, there's the scientific view of course, but science doesn't know it all (sorry science, you're still learning too) and there's definite flaws in all religions... I've just sort of been piecing together what I "feel" is right and while I definitely don't think I know everything I think I have a better grasp on it than most people do who just believe what someone else tells them to. =\ It's a tough topic for sure.

And there is the beauty of science! Ever, always evolving! So, are we! As individuals, as a species.

What I feel is right is that we — we’re creatures of chance. We adapt, change, mutate, evolve.

I think that we’re pretty fantastic, really, if we’ll punt religion and accept the wonder of this brief existence without trying to weigh it down with so much STUFF.

[amicus_curiae]

Originally Posted by DechanDawa

Buddhism proposes that emptiness is not a void. It is what remains when all thought and conjecture are removed. The "is-ness" of emptiness is reality, according to the Lamas. Well, Buddhism can be fun to study and can provide relief from the bleakness of nihilism.

I think nihilism gets a bad rap.

Is it really bleak to admit that our lives have no external meaning? We attempt internal meaning but that quickly turns farcical, doesn’t it?

Need we create bizarre myths to live?

I’ll take nihilism.

[amicus_curiae]

Originally Posted by marvin_pa

As something that I've probably spent waaaaay too much time pondering, the conclusion (such that it is) that I've thus far reached matches your own observation that the more one learns, the more one realizes that your understanding of the great scheme of things is likely minimal.

However, that sense that each step I take brings me one increment closer to grasping some greater handle on that entirety, is something that I find ultimately drives me onwards, rather than causing paralysis over the apparent hopelessness of ever gaining full understanding.

What makes life/existence/consciousness both simultaneously terrifying & fascinating is the simple fact that I don't have the answers. If there is a point, surely finding those answers as they pertain to you, must be it?

Points. Answers. Understanding.

What if there is no point? No understanding or answers?

We are oddly created. If we’re lucky we grow and never stop learning until we die and, if you must have meaning then, surely, our legacy is found in the memories of others and the paper/digital trails that we leave behind.

No one has answers, much less the answer.