I just rented the movie "Sicko" by Michael Moore("oh boy, propaganda"-- some might say)

I really was reluctant to watch as I was concerned it was another one of those-- "hate America"-- type things..... but I did see it..... I don't regard it as hateful but as a WAKE UP call..... and I feel so sad for those that are in the situations of such atrocity.

I know that before my husband was going to quite his job and work for himself-- we investigated being insured. Out of 5 companies -- 4 denied coverage because I have hypothyroid!(I've had this all my adult life and it's controlled with medication that I buy on my own--not through insurance!) the 5th company would charge us so much we couldn't afford it.

Why can't we learn from countries like Canada, UK and France? They enjoy a longer life span, have lower infant mortality rates and I wouldn't doubt less stress as they don't have to decide-- do I eat today or get medication today--- or-- do I pay the electric bill or go see the doctor.........

Well, was just wondering if anyone saw it and what your views were.

I found this webstite where people made comments about the movie and the predicament(my country) the US is in: Sicko review/comments one comment in there is from a doctor from the UK-- this whole thing has been so upsetting to me.....

mandy

[I_WMD]

Mandyfins >>> I just throw the bills out ,,, get beligerent,,,,, and in time the big hospitals absorb the costs . As if we are the only ones that cannot take care of our health care bills ...ppppppssssst!!!!!I find it in me to make the collectors stop calling ,,,, I send them a box of tissuse,,,,, And the universal number 1 800 whaaaaa !!

And when they say we cannot treat you ?? I say well the unpaid bill will be more if I go through the E R department <<< and then the referal has to be looked into so as they can cover their butt in so far as medical malpractice insurance,,,,,,,,, on and on and on .>>> Better if we had National healthcare coverage . But>>>>>>>>>>....

Mandy I hear what you are saying...but don't believe everything you read on the UK health service......Mental Health treatment is almost 0....years of waiting lists...if we pay private it is very expensive, yes, our docs are free and available and they are good I must say, mine is great and supportive....not all the same, depends on which part of the country you live in... post codes are dependant on what treatment you get or dont and that includes treatment for cancer and other terminal illnesses.....
I am not seeing and NHS pdoc, I go to a crisis centre which is run on donations and very kind trained people whi give a %#@&#! about people with mental health disorders such as my own....

Our hospitals are filthy, yo have more chance of leaving with a superbug and being worse off than you went in and that's the truth.

I feel I should be more grateful, but it really isn't all you think it is....

Jinny xxxxxx

[(JD)]

I've heard similar comments about waiting for health/doctor care for months in Canada... hopefully someone from there will weigh in also?

I like going to the doctors I pick and being able to get treatment when I need it here. I'm upset because the line for mammogram imaging etc...now I have to wait 3 months! If the whole system was that way, that would be intolerable for me.

I live in Canada, the waiting lists in the provinceI used to live in (Québec) weren't good for certain things, and as a result I never really went to the doctor unless it was something super super urgent.

(That's partly because Québec has less doctors then other provinces because of language issues and political issues, so I think other provinces have better waiting lists.)

But it is still nice to have universal health care, and the hospitals were pretty clean in my area. There were fewer English-speaking doctors, although that wasn't a huge problem for me because I speak French. There was also a good anonymous clinic service.

I too live in canada.

My thoughts on the situation - yes, for some things you definitely have wait lists. BUT - if I had to pay for my care out of pocket, I would be lost right now because i simply wouldn't have the money to cover it. Insurance wise we have of course our provincial/federal coverage. Most insurance companies will not cover me because of extensive issues I have had before in the past. So all in all I have to say I am pretty thankful that things are they way they are here. Could be better, but sure could be worse too.

Looks like you have a plan there wmdwright. but yea, national healthcare would be nice- IMO.

Oh jinny I'm sure with any thing there is room for improvement.
but-- jeez-- what goes on here is unthinkable in most other developed countries......
Like sick people taken out of their hospital beds and given a taxi ride to the nearest homeless shelter-- because their insurance had max-ed out. How about a man having to decide which finger to have sewn back on because he can only afford to pay for one. Not to mention all the denials for insurance in the first place...... it's just awful.

If my husband does go on his own for work..... I will be without health care at all....... I'd rather be on a waiting list than not have help at all..........

And yes, our hospitals are filthy too-- they say if you aren't life threatened to not go-- that way you won't be sicker when you come out.(I have a sister that is a nurse at a hospital)

Not trying to discount you at all....
I'm just upset that some of us here(In US) have NO option at all. I'm sure your system is not perfect but from what I've read and seen they do care about the patient-- more than the dollar sign.

thanks for your input-- It's always appreciated.

mandy

[(JD)]

I agree that some situations here in the USA are not suitable for human consumption. However, what we have already seen is a mass exodus from the general medical areas to specialty areas where they can make the profit they want. If socialized medicine (read socialistic/communistic?) were to be implimented, then I suspect that even more doctors would leave the field, and fewer enter it because of the pay caps. That would leave us open to third world country's doctors coming and providing service? IDK.

We do have our problems, but from what I see, those problems are because of what governmental sanctions are already placed on it. A true capitalistic (supply and demand) medical system without any mangled handling of government itself, might be the better way to go?

thanks for your replies Sky, Ledgewood and Rainbowzz.

Has anyone seen the movie? I was wondering what others thought of it, especially those not in America.

In the movie they interviewed people from Canada, and some in the hospital in England and also Americans that now live in France and how thankful they are to be able to pick doctors, have house calls and not have to pay a dime.

I was curious if others that have watched the movie were aware of what a sad state health care is in, here in the US.

Some that work fulltime here in the US and are barely getting by on low wages-- they are most likely uninsured or underinsured.

anyway-- sorry --- I'm on a soapbox lately.

I get the feeling some americans are afraid of a national program or indifferent-- those that have adequate care-- for the time being.
all I can say is I hope that those people don't loose everything, when they find out what little their insurance -- in the end, pays for. People are loosing their homes due to "non-payment" from their insurance-- leaving the patient with thousands of dollars of debt. One woman was denied payment because she forgot to put on her application that, five years ago she had a yeast infection-- so she was billed the total amount of her bill -- over $7000.
something is skrewed up.......

I'm exhausted......

mandy

**gasp** !!!!! am I in violation here?!!!???

Is this too political? I sure wouldn't want to have done something against the rules....... *bites nails*.....

Oh dear, now I'm going to worry until I can come back on here...........

[(JD)]

(((mandy))) That's one reason I like Florida, you can't lose your home for stuff like that. TC.. .it sure needs some fixing, I agree.

[Danialla]

I have not seen the movie yet Mandyfins but intend to soon.

I feel that people's opinions about national healthcare are skewed by whether they carry private insurance, have medicade (goverment paid ins), or don't and can't get health insurance.

My husband and I both deal with chronic health conditions, If I were to lose my job (I carry the insurance) we would be in real trouble. One of my husband's medications costs close to $7,000.00 a month plus the hospital costs involved in administrating it. I am in a constant state of worry that something will happen and we will not have health insurance.

We recently had a local husband and wife complete a suicide pact because of their poor health, high medical bills and their lack of health insurance. I think that was the only way they felt they could put their fears to rest.

I have stood behind elderly people in line at the drug store and watched them have their medication doled out in weekly (or less) increments based on how much money they could afford. Sad, in a wealthy country like ours, that we allow hard working people to end up like that.

National healthcare...........Please God, YES!

[Greenleaves]

I live in Canada and I'm grateful for our healthcare system. I see my pdoc every week for therapy and I don't pay anything.

My little cousin had a bowel obstruction and had to have emergency surgery and they didn't have to pay a thing.

Now at work I have extended insurance too so now meds are covered 100%, dental and vision are covered too.

Taxes are high, but it's worth it. Everyone is treated equally.

Mandy,

yeah, I see what you are saying, I suppose I'm so used to people moaning and groaning over here and I've seen my best friends mum being treated so badly because of staff shortage and underpaid nurses who are overworked, but at least we do have it in place and can get emergency treatment if we need it, I hope things improve, I will watch the film when I can. We do pay something called National Insurance over here which goes towards healthcare it is taken out of our wages, and also heavily taxed on everything which goes towards our NHS, but people who are out of work dont pay NI and still receive care so we are lucky, it is very expensive to live over here, our petrol is over £1 per litre now!!!so much tax....but I'm deviating, sorry.....I will watch the film, and I do hope things improve in the USA health wise, governments, sorry but they make me sick.......

Jin xx

I'm from Canada and I've see the Moore film. I was shocked to hear the numbers of people without any insurance coverage at all in the US. 45 million people... was it? That is 10 million more people than live in all of Canada!! And worst the number of people denied insurance and actually denied services. I think I always assumed that it was treatment first and payment later in the US cuz I couldn't image anyone being able to turn someone away knowing they were giving the person a death sentence. I can't image what it is like to be a doctor or nurse or hospital administrator or even a insurance claim person in the US who has to turn someone away to die. That must be horrid for them.

Like others have already mentioned it is comforting to know that no matter our economic or social status or our health circumstances we all have equal access to medical care. While there may be wait listed for non-life-threatening care we are always given front of the line service if time is a factor to the course of treatment.

It's not perfect and it is costly to support but I for one would prefer paying the higher taxes for a universal system than be on my own to pay for high priced medical services. I think I'd be in a constant state of anxiety if my primary and emergency health care was dependant on qualifying for private insurance or my own ability to pay.

Like in the UK our cost of living is much higher here than in the US. That is related to the amount of taxes we pay on everything short of the food we eat. The average person pays on average about 30% of our income in tax. Interesting to note here that in Canada wages on average are about 25% higher than in the US for the same job. We also pay sales tax on everything but food in some provinces (7% in BC, )% in Alberta) and a 6% (just dropped from 7%) goods and services tax on everything including food. Since the Canadian dollar as surpassed the US dollar the difference in prices in Canada compared to the US has cause us to raise concerns about why. Again it comes down to taxes and tarriffs added to goods and services entering Canada that are passed on to consumers.

We don't have a universal prescriptions program (yet) but most people have an extended private insurance plan that they cost share with employers. Low income people are provided these benefits for free. People like me who are middle income self employed don't usually have any kind of extended health benefits so scripts, dental and vision care are out of pocket expenses. In this small way I can relate to the US situation. Because I don't have extended health benefits I don't take good care of my teeth, I don't get my vision checked even though I know I need glasses and I don't take the psych drugs prescribed to me cuz I can't afford the $400+ dollars a month to keep on the drugs. Still I know that if I become seriously ill or injured that there will be no discussions about who is going to pay for the treatment. I will be treated with the same urgency and care as the next guy or gal regardless of my ability to pay.

I don't think Moore painted a totally balanced view of the Canadian situation because it does have its serious flaws for sure. We have shortages of doctors and nurses and much of that is because of what Sky suggested around caped salaries. But it also has to do with the high cost of education and the declining numbers of people willing to accumlate the level of debt they need to get through their training to be a doctor. Plus we experience the "Brain Drain" that has Canadian doctors going to the US to enjoy the higher wages. The US recruit aggressively in Canada and offer doctors and nurses unimaginable purks and benefits. Canada can't compete so we loose a lot of people that our taxes helped to educate. It also has to do with a general decline of people (worldwide) who are chosing the helping/serving profession. The same trend is evident with recruiting police officers and soldiers and other high risk jobs. Few people are entering those professions than in previous generations.

I know I"ve babbled on more than any one need to hear but one last point I'd like to make from something Sky said. The suggestion that socialized national programs are somehow related to communist idiologies is something we hear a lot from Americans. I don't get the parallel myself. Socialism and communism are two different things.

And lastly I agree with Moore that health care should not be a business that requires a profit to be made. That is utterly obsurd and shameful in my opinon. It says volumes about the values governing those decisions. Money over human life. I hope things improve for the average citizen of the USA. No question the US has some of the finest doctors and facilities but the fact that they are not accessable to everyone and anyone is beyond reproach in my opinion.

Sorry for being so gabby.... I'm pretty hyper right now and have lots of restless thoughts racing in my head. Thanks for putting up with me. It's been a good focusing distraction to comment on this discussion. One way I cope with these kinds of episodes.

Take care everyone.... my your next health care need be within your reach.

[SeptemberMorn]

It's supposed to be a good documentary. No "Hate America" this time.

It exposes the insurance companies and all the games they play. Michael Moore even takes a boat load of sick people to Guantanamo to prove a point. Those people get all the medical care they need, but US citizens are suffering.

Don't quote me, but I think some of the people on the boat get medical care in Cuba. I saw an interview with him quite some time ago so I've forgotten the particulars. I'm all for it, though! Will probably see it.

[AlteredState01]

, Chocolatelover.

As a Canadian who has benefitted from our universal health care system my entire life, I can say that I wholly support having this system in place.

I can't imagine what it would be like to have to worry about making the choice to either pay for health care and/or prescriptions or to eat/pay the rent. I can only imagine that I would be homeless, severely ill and still in the violent throes of my addictions, if not already dead!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Like others have already mentioned it is comforting to know that no matter our economic or social status or our health circumstances we all have equal access to medical care. * While there may be wait listed for non-life-threatening care we are always given front of the line service if time is a factor to the course of treatment.

It's not perfect and it is costly to support but I for one would prefer paying the higher taxes for a universal system than be on my own to pay for high priced medical services. I think I'd be in a constant state of anxiety if my primary and emergency health care was dependant on qualifying for private insurance or my own ability to pay.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
*bold-face added.

I can understand why many(?) Americans have difficulty with the concept of government having "control" of such a large part of a person's "life." And I don't think money is the issue as much as people think. It's in the concept of how Americans feel about how democracy ought to work (and does). We Canadians think a little different in our concept of what democracy is, or rather, how it should work, and this allows us to continue feeding this dream (and reality) we have(!) about this precious benefit. That, and like someone mentioned, we ARE only 10% the size, population-wise...

Getting too political?

Anyhow, haven't seen the film yet, so probably shouldn't be responding.

[AnnieL]

Hi Mandy

I am from Canada, and live in a remote part of my province. The only time I have to wait for service if at all...is if it is elective surgery. There is a 3 day wait from the time I call the clinic, until my appt. If I need to get in sooner...the clinic has an advocate that gets me in right away.

When I lived in Toronto....(5 years ago) I still only had a 3 day wait.

Truly...anyone here who is very ill...cardiac issues...cancer...many others...are given priority care. I dont mind waiting a few days if it means someone really sick gets in.

It costs me nothing ever to see a doc...and I pay nothing for my medications. I was in treatment for 6 months for anorexia....not a thin dime did it cost me.

We have difficulty yes...no system is perfect. I am proud however, to know we would never turn someone away from a hospital or a docs care because they had no insurance.

Do we pay a bit more in taxes...yes of course. I can tell you though, that its money well spent from where I sit. Our hospitals are clean...our staff well trained. The real problem where I live is getting specialists...but when needed, we are flown to the nearest city.

Annie

Really Sky?-- one can't loose their home in Florida because of overdue medical bills? at least that's something.......

Danilla-- Oh dear, I'm so sorry you are in a constant state of worry about losing your insurance--- SEE!!-- this is just what you don't need to be dealing with when you and/or your family have health issues!! argh!! I'm so so sorry. and also so sorry about the husband and wife completing a suicide pact....... it just doesn't have to be like this.......

Please take care-- my heart is with you and all those that worry like us.

mandy

greenleaves--
I'm glad for you that you can see a therapist weekly and don't have to pay. And now you have dental and vision too!! wow- that is so awesome! I've never had vision coverage my whole life but just the last couple years I've had dental-- it's sure nice!

You know I keep hearing about high taxes -- I found some statistics-- it states: Canada: 15%-29% (fed tax); France: 10%-48%; UK: 40% and US: 35%...... we have tax on merchandise here too and on services and not only that we have to pay a monthly fee for insurance, that's if you can get it, and most of us also have to pay -- in addition, a co-pay when we see a doctor-- it's rarely free if you have insurance. Like my co-pay is $40 dollars for each visit and my monthly fee to have insurance at this time is $250/monthly. I am only allowed a certain amount of days in the hospital-- no matter what-- so I'm hoping with all my might that I don't get very sick!!

Oh! I'm sorry again-- I'm back on the

jinny--
thanks again dear one. I understand your system there could use improvement-- I wish it could be better for all of you there.
Yes, things seem to be expensive just about everywhere-- here our gasoline is over $3.00 a gallon(just bought some today for $3.09)-- which is, about 1.5 pounds in UK money.... I think....
I hope you get to watch the film and please let me know what you thought-- especially how they depict things in your part of the world.

thank you both!

mandy

chocolatelover--
first would like to say-- I LOVE your screen name! that is ME too!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I couldn't image anyone being able to turn someone away knowing they were giving the person a death sentence.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> yea, it's so upsetting-- but it happens here.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
We also pay sales tax on everything but food in some provinces

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> we do too.... where I live it's close to 7% sales/service tax.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
In this small way I can relate to the US situation. Because I don't have extended health benefits I don't take good care of my teeth, I don't get my vision checked even though I know I need glasses and I don't take the psych drugs prescribed to me cuz I can't afford the $400+ dollars a month to keep on the drugs. Still I know that if I become seriously ill or injured that there will be no discussions about who is going to pay for the treatment. I will be treated with the same urgency and care as the next guy or gal regardless of my ability to pay.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I see-- thanks for sharing. I can imagine if things became dire-- having that peace of mind is worth it!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I know I"ve babbled on more than any one need to hear

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Oh NO no not at all-- I appreciate your input very much as I do everyones!
</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
The suggestion that socialized national programs are somehow related to communist idiologies is something we hear a lot from Americans. I don't get the parallel myself. Socialism and communism are two different things.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I think you hit the nail on the head there!! makes me angry though that, as a country, we choose death for some, over socialized medicine!

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I agree with Moore that health care should not be a business that requires a profit to be made. That is utterly obsurd and shameful in my opinon. It says volumes about the values governing those decisions. Money over human life. I hope things improve for the average citizen of the USA.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Oh yes-- I totally agree!! and thank you, I hope it improves too. kind of makes me embarrassed to be from a country that is so "missing it" ......

thanks again for sharing-- it's much appreciated.

mandy

phew!! I have to go rest. I'll be back.

Only ever posted in General a couple times in the almost three years I've been here-- it's kind of overwhelming--
but-- in a good way.

mandy

Thanks Mandy.... its always nice to have feedback. Specially when I'm feeling a bit off balance. I always enjoy these kinds of discussions where people express their views on issues that effect us all. The more global we become the more our issues overlap and the more we look to one another for support and creative thinking to improve the quality of life around the world.

Health care is one of those issues that bind the world together as the human race. Canada was fortunate to have a man named Tommy Douglas at a time when people would listen for him to make it his life mission to secure national health care for all Canadians. He was named the Greatest Canadian Ever in a national poll last year. It was part of a TV show on our national network. Clinton #1 tried to be your Tommy Douglas so one can hope that another will try again in the near future.

Thanks for raising the topic. Been interesting to hear other views and circumstances.

Walk in Beauty......

Wow Mandy....... those are quite the stats!! I thought our average in Canada was higher than that but I really expected to see the US much lower. I always heard that taxes in the US were half that in Canada so that was news to me.