[seeker1950]

Well, Dr. John, and all of you here...
This whole issue of the Men's Forum was started by a member who, apparently, is no longer here on PC. This same member insulted me numerous times in other threads because of my comments. At one point, I even deleted all my personal information because of his responses. The man was angry and wanted a Mens Forum for that reason, in my opinion. There was a long discussion about it....remember...and we finally all agreed ...with OK...go for it.
But I don't know, but I tend to agree with AlexK about this.
Patty

[Rhapsody]

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alexandra_k said:
sub-grouping is a fairly common phenomenon, yeah. as is... stereotyping. as is discrimination on the basis of gender or age or whatever...

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I personally do not see how one can stereotype me by referring to me as a WOMEN for I was born a FEMALE (with breast & vagina) therefore, I am a WOMEN.

BTW - I for one would not have a problem with your male alter posting in the MENS FORUM (if the men don't) as long as he identifies himself as the one posting under your name.

[Rhapsody]

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DocJohn said:
If you'd like to suggest a new forum for identity issues, or transgendered, or the like, you're more than welcomed to do so.

Best,
DocJohn

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Thank You DocJohn for doing the best you can to think of every one here on PC....... You are Appreciated!

[heyjoe]

i detect the odor of bra's burning

I would have thought that the beauty of a place like this would have indeed been that people could choose where they wanted to hang out and share, and see whether they liked or identified with a particular forum etc.

When one makes forums with restricted membership (e.g., males only, females only, over 21 only, under 21 only - one limits choices. One says 'this is the basis of the in-group identity and there are a whole bunch of other people who simply aren't welcome here'.

I don't see anything wrong with attempting to foster certain things. E.g., 'this board is for supporting guys with issues guys bring up'. When it amounts to 'we have judged that you aren't a guy so %#@&#! off' then I do find it hard to see how this is being accepting of others - or giving others more choices.

> I would feel uncomfortable trying to second guess what their emotional or psychological or other needs are and throwing them all together in one big forum and say, "Here you go, good luck!"

I don't see how the absence of closed forums would be doing any of those things. Isn't the creation of closed forums trying to second guess what peoples emotional or psychological or other needs are more than their absence? The presence of moderation means and you aren't simply 'throwing people all together'. The different boards with their different posters (this happens even when anyone except the pedophiles are able to join) are diverse environments and people have choices already as to their niche. Except for the people that are excluded altogether, of course.

Like having thoughts / urges / desires to abuse others...

Even though that counts as a mental disorder. Pedophilia: The new schizophrenia. Society simply has to hate / fear some group, I suppose... Sigh.

[ECHOES]

I have to admit I never realized there was the NO WOMEN POSTING note on the Men's Forum. I don't know if I've ever been there before seeing this thread. I assumed it meant Men's Issues, not Keep Out! Not Girls Allowed.

The stereotyping comes from:

This idea that women have issues that only women can understand. This comes up already in some contexts. It is often said that only addicts can understand and help other addicts, for example.

Counter: Human beings are alike enough in knowing what it is like to experience pain and suffering and fear and hurt and anger. Human beings are alike enough in fearing death and so on. Instead of pre-judging 'non-females' or 'non-males' or 'under 21's' or whatever 'simply can't understand' - why don't we try and promote understanding?

The idea is that women will talk about stuff that guys won't find interesting. Well... Why not give them a chance.

People are people are people are people.

%#@&#! the stereotypes.

Whose %#@&#! business is it how old I am what sex I am what gender I am.

We gonna start up a 'non-jewish forum' anytime soon?
In the interests of promotion of freedom of choice
and in-group identity?

When will people %#@&#! learn?

[Raynaadi]

The intent of this thread was to clear up misunderstandings about a particular forum, which DocJohn and others have done.

The world will always present things that don't sit well with everyone. PC is a microcosm of the world; a community online with many different views and opinions.

Self care tools are key here. There is a favorites view option which is very helpful in organizing the forums one wishes to view.

If we were to do away with labels here, PC would have to be one giant General forum with no separate forums.

I'm sorry. It is just that this is something I feel strongly about. I've been subjected to a lot of stereotypes over the years. Stereotypes about my gender, about my sexuality, about my age. And it is hard for me to see (what seem to me to be) the promotion of stereotypes on a forum that is extremely well placed to not go there (since we have no way of knowing or verifying peoples sex / age etc).

[Raynaadi]

I don't believe its the intent of DocJohn and the community team to invite stereotypes. We create forums and limitations based on the needs of the members.....many of the recent creations, ie mens/womens, sexuality, games, videos....were all asked for by members. It wasn't mean to discriminate.....it was just provided to offer a place for the members to share with others like them.....some women want to only share with women, men with men etc. That doesn't mean ALL. Some women don't ever post in women's and same with men. Some poeple don't view sexuality. I don't view a lot of forums because its not something I relate to or have experience in.

We're all just so very different.....and thank goodness for that right? I mean how boring would the world be if we were all the same?

Nothing that happens on PC is meant to harm.....everything that happens here is in consideration of the entire community, which has gotten HUGE and continues to grow.....I hope that we do the best we can for everyone. We sure do try really hard. Unfortunately not everyone can be happy all the time, heck I'm not even happy all the time. But we really try and make this place the best support site.

I do appreciate that the exclusive forums weren't intended to promote stereotypes etc. What I'm wondering, however, is whether - despite the wonderful intentions behind their creation - if that is one thing that they serve to do in fact.

I know that members asked for the forums and that providing them was a response to that request. What if a member asked for a 'non-jewish' forum, or a 'non-islam' forum, or a 'whites' forum, however?

>it was just provided to offer a place for the members to share with others like them...

What I'm questioning is whether such things as age and gender really are as relevant as people seem to think they are for how much another person is 'like me' in the interests that people really have. To say that age or gender really is predictive of my concerns is to... Say something that gets me worried about what on earth my concerns might be (and the way that I'm characterising these groups of people). Because these groups really are incredibly diverse.

I'm not saying that people aren't different. I'm saying that age / gender etc aren't appropriate ways to be carving up 'different' or the 'same'.

er...

and that is (partly) why there are anti-discrimination laws about those kinds of categories...

[Raynaadi]

For some people, they are though. For me it is.....I can't talk about my work day with an 8 year old for instance. I prefer to talk about my female cycles with other females who experience it. I can't talk about being an alcoholic with someone who has never had a drop of liquor and expect them to understand. So for me, yeah, I like talking to similar people. I also like talking to people about things I might not have experience in, to learn.

Of course there are limits to the kinds of forums created. There have been requests for types of forums that have been denied.

I understand that you're unccomfortable with the mens/womens only forums. There are those of us who like it too though. I understand that its your belief that age/gender aren't appropriate ways to be carving up different or same, but still others believe it is appropriate.

This is precisely why we limit political discussions. So many varying and strong views. And thats ok in places other than a support site. I know for me, I come here to relax and hang out with folks who struggle like I do. Its hard when these kinds of discussions come up and thats why we limit them.

[Rhapsody]

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alexandra_k said:
The stereotyping comes from:

This idea that women have issues that only women can understand.

Human beings are alike enough in knowing what it is like to experience pain and suffering and fear and hurt and anger.

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Alex I am sorry that you are having such a hard time with accepting that many of us do indeed want the separate forums, for while it is true that we are all humans and understand things like fear, love, hate, pain and hunger as a whole....... the fact also remains with out a doubt that there are many other issues under the sun that only our same sex gender can truly connect with and understand.

And that is what I feel the two different forum were created for "Same Sex Advice When WANTED"

> I can't talk about my work day with an 8 year old for instance.

Well... Firstly, there aren't any 8 year olds on this forum. Secondly... I guess I'd ask an 8 year old how their school day went, and tell them how my day went... Sure you cater things a little to the audience, but that is life.

> I prefer to talk about my female cycles with other females who experience it.

But is this because you think that people who don't experience it simply can't understand? I guess I don't see how experience inevitably helps with understanding (people who have been hurt can often be so focused on their hurts that they are blinded to the hurts of others). And I don't see why people who haven't been through precisely the same thing can't understand. I mean... There is a sense in which nobody can precisely understand our experience anyway - because while their experiences may be similar their experiences are never exactly the same.

> I can't talk about being an alcoholic with someone who has never had a drop of liquor and expect them to understand.

I think that there are certain things that you could expect them to understand, sure. Part of it is about learning how to communicate to facilitate understanding. A person might have difficulty with gambelling such that once they start... They feel unable to stop. I don't see why they couldn't use their experience to understand. Who hasn't been in a situation where they have done something they regretted? How many people who smoke think about smoking a great deal... How about other compulsive urges? I simply don't accept that there is something that is so wonderfully magically different about a particular persons experience with alchohol that makes them so un-understandable to others.

> I understand that its your belief that age/gender aren't appropriate ways to be carving up different or same, but still others believe it is appropriate.

I know others believe it is appropriate. I guess I'm just asking people to have a think about why they believe that it is appropriate. And to have a think about the stereotypes that might be promoting their belief.

> the fact also remains with out a doubt that there are many other issues under the sun that only our same sex gender can truly connect with and understand.

I deny that supposed 'fact'. It is beliefs like that that... Well... There are many examples in history... There is enough alienation in the world without or pre-judging it...

It makes me feel very sad.

I guess that people have had bad experiences. People who haven't had a problem with alchohol who have been unsympathetic to ones problem with alchohol. Males who have been unsympathetic about PMT. Females who have been insensitive to concerns that males have expressed. I'm sorry that people have had bad experiences. But to generalize from 'all people who haven't had a problem with alchohol' or 'all males' or 'all females'... Is an unwarranted generalization.

Except insofar as our beliefs about it... Make it so.

"> the fact also remains with out a doubt that there are many other issues under the sun that only our same sex gender can truly connect with and understand."

I disagree. I am blessed with four male friends that I can talk to about anything. And they talk to me about whatever their issues are.

I don't believe that same gender stuff is written in concrete. It can vary so much due to how a person processes life and the issues that they want to share with a close friend, regardless of gender.

Pat

I mean... Lets say that I haven't had a problem with alchohol. If I hear that only people who have had a problem with alchohol can understand a person having a problem with alchohol then I'm not even going to bother trying to understand. Why would I bother trying when everyone is telling me I'm doomed to fail?

Similarly... If I think that there are things that matter to guys that I simply can't understand or relate to in any way... How hard am I going to try to understand? I'm not going to bother.

And how much am I (if I'm an alchoholic or a guy) going to try and explain where I'm coming from in a way that people can relate to? Not going to bother... Just going to say 'you can't understand so that is that'.

And I think that situation is very sad indeed. Doesn't do anything at all to promote gender relations (is a positive impediment to them). Doesn't do anything at all to promote that people with addictions are people too. Doesn'nt do anything to encourage empathy and understanding and humane interventions.

And I think that is sad.

I've never had a problem with alchohol and worked in a psych hospital and dealt with alcholics every day. I was very good at therapy and saw a lot of people who were still sober a year or two later and came to me to tell me that I had helped them get to the place where they could change.

So Alex has a male alter, it's a mental health challenge and should be treated as such. It's a sad day when people line up and object to something that they probably don't know anything about.

Stretch and leave a comfort zone. I was surprised how much I grew by leading with an open heart.

Pat

[bebop]

I think the point has been missed as to why there are men's and women's specific forums here. a man asked for a men's forum. he got it. so doc made one for the ladies as well. there are many specific forums here at pc that cater to certain illnesses or disorders and no one argues about that so why argue about this one? Let's just move on. it isn't going to go away.

I'm not trying to pick on the mens forum. I'm talking about the more general issue of these kinds of forums:
- mens
- womens
- under 21
- over 21
and so on.

> a man asked for a men's forum. he got it.

Right. But just because you ask doesn't mean you are entitled to get. How is a mens forum different from a whites forum?

> there are many specific forums here at pc that cater to certain illnesses or disorders and no one argues about that

Actually... I did express some concerns about the in-group identity stereotypes that are potentially fostered with respect to some dx's in particular (e.g., dissociative disorders, alchoholism, anorexia etc). I'm not saying that we should do away with them - but I am saying that we should critically examine the stereotypes / prejudices that we have about what that in-group identity consists in and whether it is justified...

Sometimes one expresses oneself... Not because one thinks that what one thinks is likely to be adopted as policy. But more because one wants to express what one thinks simply so that others can see some of those considerations and... Well... Factor it in to future decision making processes, at least.

Increased awareness. That is all I'm trying to promote...

[I_WMD]

Holy Bat cave >>>> ( Is that you ???? Robin )

I have not been in the best of places for a while with IRL,,, So forget I posted here ,,, BUT...................

Why in Blue Blazes is this thread 7 pages long ,,, when it would be by invitation only . To give an opposites genders opinion .??

And even then ,, I Never open up womens forum for personally I think that is there own domain .. And vice versa as to mens forum.

But then you know what they say about the cat and curiosity.....

[heyjoe]

sometimes men just want to get away from women for a while, women away from men, kids away from adults and adults away from kids. Thats just the way it is in 2008. People are allowed to relax and talk to who they want to and feel comfortable with sometimes and it is healthy, they dont always have to be politically correct. Wether or not you feel that many people with various experiences can understand an alcoholic for instance, doesnt mean that the particular alcoholic doesnt feel more comfortable at that time talking to another alcoholic and will open up more readily to someone who they think will understand them better. To equate a mens or womens forum on a mental health site with a whites only forum is a gross exageration and stretch of logic in my opinion. I find it amazing how much it irks some people not being able to post on one forum out of so many.

[Mouse_]

AK, Your raise some good points, but I think sometimes people need a point of reference and then they can decide where they want to evolve to from there. For me personally if it weren't for AA I had no idea where to go too in the beginning for my drinking problem. The point that anyone can understand anyone hasn't always been true in my experience. Those that hadn't experienced what being a drunk is really like would soon mist over when I tried to explain there's something wrong with me but I can't work out what. Oh they'd say no you just need to have better control when you drink, but that didn't seem to be the answer. I'd then see them drinking ok and wonder whats wrong with me? I must be bad, it was only when I walked into AA and heard stories just like mine that I knew I wasn't bad but ill...Yes perhaps there are others that are not alcoholic that could have pointed that out to me, but unless they walked around with signs on their forehead proclaiming to want to understand a drunk I didn't find them. Yes people can then identify with their "label" and stay there for much longer than needed, but I think thats more about the person then the group? I found AA and have now moved on and see the plus's and negatives about it. I wonder if sometimes peoples personal angers do not sometimes cloud the realitys of in imperfect life? Humanbeings will always want to be with like, its what we do.

[coralproper]

ok, I'm gonna be stupid or brave here

Alex alexandra ... pretty cool name for someone with a gender issue ... I have never had this problem so can not relate ......... but

What your saying is like there should not be a Girl Scouts for just girls or Boy Scouts for just boys

this is not the same as racial discrimination in my opinion

All do respect .... and I don't care personaly .. but reforming to rules of socity is just part of day to day life

You can either reform or rebel ... but if you rebel .. it is better to atleast have a good cause first .. in my opinion

[nowheretorun]

one thing for sure i want to say is you have my friendship

and society adds to the stigma with pre-suppositions...

when i see a male in my store there are a certain number of assuptions i make... (confession time) ... and if the customer is female, i will make a mental list of how to respond to her based on being female...

what i get from alexandra is that the pre-suppositions are stereo typing and prejudice...

i can see what you're saying alexandra.. it could use some examination... in my job its important to think about because of the wide cross section of people i intersect with... im always looking for ways to relate better to the people i meet... the people of my society.. my neighbors, friends, fellow citizens...

i will speak out and say they DO matter... whether they're like me or not... they are in my community which is a part of me, which is a part of a larger whole....

in my view, when the whole is healed, my healing is more complete....

it is so hard alexandra to swim upstream, and to do so for a lifetime is exhausting... i hope you find adequate shelter for times like this... i know how upsetting it must be to feel the entire world is against you... but you are not alone and sometimes a fight for one is unknowingly a fight for many....

we all deserve a voice and we all deserve consideration... i dont believe whole healing is possible without these two things..

what coral says also struck me....

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You can either reform or rebel ... but if you rebel .. it is better to atleast have a good cause first ..

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to me, the cry to be heard, accepted, and the right to express personal freedom is a worthy cause... just know when to rest alexandra... take care...