Vegitarianism

((((((Angela)))))))
Luckily you've encountered another 'freak out' master, so please don't apologize. I can see where you were coming from, and I'm sure others can too. But do remember we are all friends here and sometimes a good intellectual debate on certain subjects is cleansing to the mind. Well, sometimes it makes me feel better that I can actually make sense out of this haziness in my head. lol.

(((((more hugs)))))
Kimberly.

Angela, I'm so sorry if what I said offended you. I certainly don't think you are an uninformed and easily persuaded twit. To be honest, I was mostly thinking about other people who might visit that link.

Also, I must confess, I have a deep resentment of PETA, mainly because they have supported violence. So that probably colored my reply. I'm sorry if you got hurt by my own knee-jerk reaction.

*big hugs*
Jo

It's ok Jo. I know how quick to react I can be. Also, I was not aware that PETA had supported violence. My goal was not to support PETA anyway.

((((((((Jo))))))))

Thanks for understanding MY knee-jerk reactions, everyone!!

((((((((Jo, Kimberly, and all)))))))))))

Rut roh. These 2 sites (activistcash and consumerfreedom) are owned by a lobbyist named Rick Berman. To have Rick select charities for you would assume you agree with his political philosophies regarding the tobacco industry, his stance against Mother's Against Drunk Driving (MADD), etc. You can learn more about Rick by searching the internet.

For charity research, I use the Better Business Bureau's charity site.

I orginally found that site on the Federal Trade Commission's Charity Fraud web site.

Sorry to drag this out, but that Berman guy is annoying. I'm now realizing that I've gotten too political, and better shut my yap.

Emmy

Emmy:

My reasons for posting those two sites were that there were several NEWS articles regarding PETA (and as MJ stated) and their support of violent actions. Some of those articles were actually written by such reputable news organizations as CNN and MSNBC. Maybe not on that particular site but on others I have found. It is mostly a condensed version that is simple to read. I have NO CLUE who Rick Berman is. I do, however, know there is a disclaimer at the bottom of each of the sites that is easy to read. If you want to read it, read it; if not, don't. I just posted it for those who wanted to, same as I did not visit the PETA site, I have been there before and knew what it was all about.

You assume too much. I am a tobacco user, which is my own personal choice.That does not necessarily mean that I support his political philosophies regarding the tobacco industry. I also support MADD. It's a wonderful thing we have here, the freedom of choice and to believe the way we want. It was not my intention to get into a political debate with anyone. Politics has their place and I believe here is not it.

My knee-jerk reaction (which is my own fault) was regarding PETA in general, as I explained earlier.

However, I did NOT attack anyone or assume too much. I just simply stated a fact and offered a website to visit IF YOU WANT TO, there was no obligation to even go or to acknowledge.

I was more concerned about the young impressionable people who are members of these forums. I am under the impression it's for age 13 and up. My 15 year old neice was supporting PETA and making uninformed decisions. I'm not totally against PETA if you want to support it or whomever. As I said, live and let live. Everyone has the right to know and to make their own informed decisions regarding anything they want.

It's a wonderful place where people can have their own opinions on things and still be friends.

Take Care and I hope everyone is well.
Kimberly.

I apologize that my wording was upsetting. It wasn't meant to be. I really didn't mean you specifically, I meant the general "you the reader " having him pick out your charities. It's just good to know who he is and who pays his salary...imho.

Of COURSE we can have differing opinions of MANY topics and still be friends!! Heck, otherwise what would we talk about at parties??? The weather??? Heck no!

My friends come from ALL political persuasions and I love them all madly. Some are just better at cooking tofu than others!

BIG apologetic hugs (((Kimberly)))

Emmy

(((((((((((((((((((((EMMY))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Definitely don't want to talk about the weather. That's the sort of conversations I have with my mother. LOL.

Please don't apologize. I apologize to you. Seems today I must be a hormone fueled machine because I have just been on the verge of tears.

I am so sorry that I made you feel like apologizing.

(I have no clue what is wrong with me)LOL. Yes, I do, Angela is a good friend of mine and I feel like I upset her and the chain reaction. I'm a silly creature sometimes.

lol I would be lost if you asked me to cook tofu...although I have considered it before. If you'd post me a good recipe (especially if it had onions and mushrooms) I would definitely give it a shot! LOL.

My husband and I pretty much stand alone as far as political persuasions go. We have to brunt attacks all the time. LOL. But what else is family for ????

Anyway,please know there is no need to apologize.

BIG apologetic hugs ((((((((((((EMMY))))))))))))))) back.

Now..please tell me are we all friends again ???

Please say yes...
Please say yes....
Pretty please with sugar on top.

Hey, it works for my kids

((((((((((((((((HUGS ALL))))))))))))))))))))
Kimberly.

There is a brand of chicken here called "Pilgrim's Pride"....there was a video on the news of the workers kicking the chickens, like footballs, before they killed them. I am from southeastern Oklahoma and Tysons has chicken farms everywhere down there. There is tremendous cruelty exercised at these places...there is one two miles from my ranch and I KNOW what goes on there. The owner is my cousin. I raised feeder steers for years.......the reason? I knew that they would at least have 105 days of pure joy, living on my ranch. I had a dear friend who ran a feedlot in OKC for years and he told me what went on at the processing plant across the way. There is a tremendous amount of cruelty going on at slaughterhouses. Being a vegetarian is the healthy way to go for me. There are small farms where the animals are treated well, but that is not the norm. The small farmer/rancher has been driven out of business by interest rates, big corporate farms and ranches....ask Willie Nelson! I used to work for him and he puts on FarmAid for a reason. Small farmers/ranchers are going under by the dozens every day! SUPPORT SMALL!!!! PAT

Pat:

Tyson is big here too. (In AR) They've made their business even bigger because now they've expanded beyond chicken and now have the pork market cornered. Oh my aunt used to work for Tyson. She won't eat chicken now. I can understand that. She worked there for years and knew what went on but when you're poor and you depend on that money and live week to week (best paying job around) you just kinda don't have a choice.

Does this mean we're neighbors ???

Take Care,
Kimberly.

Of COURSE you silly goose!!! We weren't never not friends, or something like that!

TOFUbutt

"SUPPORT SMALL!!!! -- Pat"

So, ya mean...size DOES matter?

em

P.S. Ya know, I've known you all this time, and I don't think I ever you knew you were a veg before.

I'm just sitting here LMAO at the size remark Emmy. You should be getting paid, a professional comic

Still laughing,
Kimberly.

I bet I really look silly.

Em, honey, does that mean I won't be banished for being a face-eater? I know where meat comes from, and I don't mean a supermarket. I buy from local men that tell me how the animals have been raised, and how they're handled. And i just trust these guys. Getting that mad cow border closure sure did mess up the economics of the beef trade (over half our production used to be exported to the US), but now the smaller farmers are banding together to produce and market local/regional and value-added meat co-ops. It's a silver lining in the whole mess. People/families who have been in the busy for two hundred years going bankrupt.....I really think that a few bad operators have just made everybody look bad. If tofu tasted like a steak, I'd make the switch.....but I dunno. Unless, that is, tofu butt tastes like rump roast.....then we're talking. I just don't feel okay if I stop eating meat.

Rambling thoughts of a sleepy brain. Good night.

Lar

Oh, Ems, size matters!!!! Oh yes, it does.....I've been a veg for about 20 years.............

Larry HOOVER! You wicked trollop! Only you could get away with that rump roast comment......and just barely!!

If you were just a face eater, well, that's your own decision and I have never nagged a soul about that issue. Even you. It's that other stuff you eat that makes me wretch! I dare you to tell them the rest of the story! (while I go get my barf bucket ready)

Tofu Derriere

Here I am chiming in late again. I'm essentially a vegetarian because the way animals have been abused, and unappreciated in our society got to me, and I don't want to contribute to it. I do eat fish, because it seems to me that the fish industry is not as cruel as other meat industries. I feel that in times past, eating meat was not a moral problem because people raised their own, or hunted in the wild, and those animals generally had a good life and were appreciated.

But I feel that changes in our modern society have made abuses much more common. For one thing, most people have no real concept of where their food comes from (not just meat - vegetables come from living things also), so they don't have a real appreciation for it, and they overuse it and waste it. I like the rule from Dinotopia, "Eat to live - don't live to eat." The other thing is that the food industries have become so industrialized, that it's reduced to nothing but a factory. Big industry makes meat cheap, and they do that by cutting corners that affect the animals' quality of life. They grow them up to killing size as quickly and cheaply as possible, and hire workers who are underpaid and don't care, and are overworked and desensitized.

Buying food produced on small farms is an improvement, because on small farms people are more likely to care. Visiting the farm is a good thing. Abuses do occur on small farms too, but not as much as in the big industrialized factory farms. Organic products usually come from small farms. These products usually cost more and don't look as pretty. This is because small farms can't compete with the big industry. Unfortunately, a lot of us can't afford the higher prices.

Raising your own is a still better option if you can, but it also isn't an option for most people.

I don't have a problem with milk and cheese and eggs, but I prefer to produce my own. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to lately, but I did for a number of years. One of my biggest problems with cheese is animal rennet, which is made from the stomach lining of pre-ruminant calves (calves killed before they are old enough to digest grass). There is also vegetable rennet, however, and it works just as well. Unfortunately, the cheese in stores is not labled as to which type of rennet is used.

To start out as a vegetarian, I think you will do better if you cut back gradually on meat. That is what I did. I never did eat a lot of meat, and I eliminated red meat first, then white meat. For a while I didn't make a fuss if I was served somthing that only had a little bit of meat in it, although I didn't eat meat at home. My philosophy about being a vegetarian is posted on my website if any of you would like to know more about my decision process. my weblog If you want to make sure that you don't eat anything with meat in it, start reading labels. Don't stress about it too much at first, but there are things like gelatin, which is made from meat by-products (although there is vegetarian gelatin), and marshmallows, which are made using gelatin (and I don't think that anybody makes vegetarian marshmallows). But most things will be more obvious than that on the labels. You don't have to do it all at once though.

I also want to say something about PETA. They are a militant, extreme group, and I have communicated with PETA members. They do encourage violent methods of making their point, as well as things that just don't make sense, such as stealing animals from farms (including small farms, which usually have lower security and are easier targets), or just turning animals loose that don't have much chance of surviving on their own. Their goal is misguided. Ultimately, they don't believe that people should benefit from animals in any way. Even having a pet dog or cat, they see as keeping animals in captivity. I'm not sure what they see as animals' place in the world, as they are in favor of absolute separitism between people and all animals. Livestock groups that I have been a member of have been attacked by PETA members who try to tell us that we should not have animals, period. I asked what they wanted us to do with the animals that we have been providing good homes for, just turn them loose? When I explained that these animals wouldn't survive without being cared for by humans, they had to think about it before telling me that we should just not make more of them - don't let them breed - let them die out.

I wasn't going to watch that video, but I did, and parts of it were disturbing. Some of the things they showed are standard practices, but the way they were presented make them seem much worse than they are. Some things shown I'm sure are exceptions. Even with exaggeration, though, it is true that abuses occur and are more common than we would like to think. My husband worked at a beef packing plant, and had nightmares about it for years after he quit. I hear similar stories from people who have worked in other related industries.

It's an individual choice, but one that I wish more people would put some thought into. And another wish I have is that people wouldn't try to make us feel bad when we have chosen vegitarianism, and would respect that decision. It really bugged me at work last weekend when another staff member would not let the girls give me a plate for dinner without the meat. I don't try to make anyone feel bad for eating meat, but forcing me to take a plate with meat on it and telling me I can just throw it away completely defeats the purpose. Throwing it away and letting it be wasted is much sadder to me than having it be eaten and at least that animal's life has done somebody some good.

I'm glad you started this thread. It's interesting to hear people's views, even if it can be a sensitive topic. I think that as long as there is respect for other people's reasoning and beliefs, we can handle talking about some sensitive issues.

Wendy

p.s. feel free to ask me any questions you like - you know where to find me.

There is something about living life with blinders on. I think people who love animals and eat meat do this. They have to. I know that I used to!!

However....here I sit being fully aware of the benefits of of certain health related related issues, but I put those same blinders on in order to ignore changes I oughta be making. Big talker I is! I guess the difference is that the only one injured in the long haul is me.

I guess we walk our own path, leave our own footprints?

I hope this thread makes people simply *think* about the issue. Just that would be a blessing.

Bare minimum - Please, when you eat meat, bow your head and thank the spirit of the animal that gave it's life for you.

emmy

(((((((((Kimberly))))))))) You did NOT upset me, honey! I think you ended up much more upset about it than I did. I'm sorry I wasn't around much tonight to tell you that (I've been in class). But we are A-OK!! I promise. Like I said, I WAY BIG TIME TOTALLY over-reacted. It's something I do sometimes. I am very sorry, and I am NOT upset at all ok?

Wendy, I appreciated your post. I'm sure you could've guessed that.

Emmy, I like what you said about thanking the animal that gave his/her life for you. I likes VERY much!!

I could not presume to name everyone that has replied, but I appreciate EVERYONE's input, veggies and meat-eaters alike.

Angela

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Larry HOOVER! You wicked trollop! Only you could get away with that rump roast comment......and just barely!!

If you were just a face eater, well, that's your own decision and I have never nagged a soul about that issue. Even you. It's that other stuff you eat that makes me wretch! I dare you to tell them the rest of the story! (while I go get my barf bucket ready)

Tofu Derriere

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

A trollop? A wicked one? Do you think I have a gender identity issue? Are you suggesting that you will bare your rump? That other stuff? The rest of the story?

My, my, Ms. Butt, but were my hands so cold that I made you jump?

Are you referring to varietal meats, such as oxtail? Waste not, want not.

Lar

Mr. Heaver...eer Hoover - You keep your braised ox-tail eatin' paws off my tofu-fed buttsky!! Hands that actuallly prepare roasted animal organs and tongues shall never have the pleasure of this fine middle-aged soy toy!

I am however, available for the first man who comes a knockin' with tofu on his breath is sportin' hemp undergarments.

Emmy

Emmy, please remember not to smoke them. It's one thing to smoke your own bra. Quite another when said undergarments belong to a fellow, particularly one you have just met. Just a word of advice.

You guys are hilarious.

Lar totally shocked me with the gender identity issues statement.

I think like Wendy, some people see animals as having spirits but not the plants we eat as they come from living things. In my mind, the entire Earth is a living thing, how else could it house us humans and all the other creatures that inhabit it ?

We grow a garden and in my belief system, religion I suppose some would call it. We also thank the plants for their sacrifice (these are my herb bushes or tomato plants or whatever) If you cut a piece of it you leave something and give thanks. This is what I'm teaching my children too.

ALL living things should be appreciated.

Although, I have to agree with Lar. When my mother in law was alive there was not a part of the animal that we didn't eat. (Sometimes I ate at home. LOL.)

Waste not, want not. That is so very true.

What an interesting topic.

(((((((Angela))))))) forgive me for my overly emotional day yesterday. It was just an off day I suppose.

Take Care all!
Kimberly.

Emmy:

You know where I can get a discount on hemp underthings?????

I live in cotton country and they're so expensive here if you can even find them. Have had some hemp clothing before paid $$$ for them and they last forever and are really more comfy than cotton.

Wendy..LMAO..that is sound advice!

Well said, Kimberly. Everything we eat comes from living things. The Earth is good enough to provide for us, and there would be plenty to go around if we all knew how to share. We need to be thankful. I feel that respect and understanding are the keys, not only towards other humans but also towards other life, even forms of life that are less comprehensible to us.

I also believe that the plants and the Earth have spirits, and obviously animals do. They all feel, even if not in the same way that we do. They all deserve respect. This does not mean that we shouldn't make use of their gifts - just that we should not waste or destroy for no reason, and we need to be good stewards.

Wendy