Vegitarianism

Wendy:

I agree with you 100%. You said it better than I ever could. I just wanted to tell you something else I appreciate...Your very obvious gentle spirit. Thanks so much for sharing. I believe that is how I will explain it to the kids, if you don't mind my copying and printing your reply.

((((((HUGS))))))) and many blessings to you dear,
Kimberly.

Kimberly,

I'm honored. Thanks for the compliments, and of course you may share my reply. You have a very gentle spirit too, btw. I have noticed that before, as well as your capacity for empathy and generosity. You give of yourself and your time so much.

(((((((hugs)))))))) and blessings,
Wendy

Oh my, how late to chime in. I live amongst hunters of all sorts. This time of year is a big deal for them. We have to stay out of the woods because it's pheasant and then turkey then deer etc seaon. Bow season and musket season. I have to confess that I have never thought about the torture that animals go through to be raised for food. I became a veggi when I was 13 because I watched my beloved pets being slaughtered and at a younger age was made to participate. I can't know that all small farms are okay because I watched sadistic cruelty to the animals who were my friends. On the other hand I have close friends who butcher lambs or send them to market. These animals have had great lives but are they tortured at the end before slautering? They mostly are shipped though friends do butcher a few. I stopped allowing my kids to have their sheep lamb for this reason. The rams are always on someones table. My own sweet innocent son learned to slaughter lambs with my friend. I felt sick to hear of it. He is 20 now and he loves critters so much yet he could gut an animal? But my friend taught him to do it with humanity and love. Still couldn't take a life I think but that is me. I never am near meat. Was devastated that we were out of tofu tonight. Will probably start making own cheeses from friend's organic farm. I* am curious about the animal rennet. How to do it without death?
I was a slaughtered animal when I was young. I was that defenseless and unimportant. I watched as my only friends, the only solice I had were murdered in front of me. I will not eat meat. I do not judge others as I live in a hunting and farming community. I can't eat a being that could look me in the eye and share life. Tommi, I was so scared by your statement that even animals we euthanize know death is coming and give us a look. Geez, I have been in that position too many times and it bothers me to think my beloved pets had awareness of their impending death.

I, too, believe that plants have energies, and anytime my shrubs must be pruned, I talk to them and give an offering of cornmeal to their base. There have long been studies of the reaction on the surrounding plants when one plant is chopped down. imagine being a cabbage or lettuce or tomato plant...

All things were given to us to use as we need. All things in moderation. All things done with forethought and consideration. It's a tall order.

As for eating healthy... it's a full time job! You will become discouraged too... and will have to make choices depending upon your abilities and lifestyle. Do the best you can, and don't fault others for their choices... if you have time to advocate for a cause, go for it!

I think it is so cool to hear other people talk about respecting plant life! I always thought maybe I was being a little overboard or crazily fanatic about my thoughts on that, so I never shared them with anyone until recently when Wendy (Rap) and I got into a discussion about it.

It's nice to know that others see the WHOLE earth (not just animals) as a living thing. It makes me feel happy!!

And I know that for some people, gardening can be just as therapeutic as loving pets. It always was for my mom.

Angela

Hi, I'm going to weigh in on the animal knowing about his impending demise. I don't believe that. I've had a lot of animals and have at times had to have them euthanized. Some were in so much pain that they didn't know what was going on. Others were aware that I was holding them and singing to them and loving them with all my heart and I believe thats what they knew. I've talked to many veterinarians, theologians and animal people and I don't believe that an animal has the capacity to understand euthunasia. When we take an animal into our lives, we become stewards and are charged with caring for that pet until they die. Part of that responsibilty is knowing when the quality of the pet's life is no longer what it should be. I'm afraid that someone might think that because the animal "knows" about the impending end...they will wait for it to die on it's own. That can be a very cruel and unnecessary thing. Yes, I'm on a soapbox but I believe in caring for my pets properly, until I say goodbye to them. And having one euthanized that should no longer be in pain is one of the things that I do. Pat

All of the arguments to prove man's superiority cannot shatter this hard fact: In suffering, the animals are our equals-----(once again, I'm too lazy to go upstairs to get the name of the author of this quote, but if anyone wants it, I'll be happy to.)

As for bowing your heads and thanking the animal for giving its life before you chow down on it, uh........................unless it jumped off a bridge after turning to you and stating, "Hey, when I'm gone feel free to chomp away," that point seems rather mute, doesn't it? Get it? That animal had absolutely no choice in the matter, so who are you thanking? Given the choice I sincerely believe that animal would not have wanted to die a horrifying painful death.

There's a book, "The Slaughter of Terrified Beasts" that deals with this issue. Never read it and never plan to, as just the description is enough for me. I've heard bits and pieces and that's enough.

My feeling is that if God had wanted us to eat, wear etc, animals, he would not have created them as he did us. Get it??? Brains, nervous systems just like ours that feel pain. The SAME pain. Any pet owner out there knows that their pet feels love, gives love, feels fear, feels pain. The SAME pain, the SAME terror. Why would a LOVING God create beautiful beasts that feel every bit as much as we do, to have them killed for us to eat/wear/etc? No one has ever been able to give me a good reason. No, he created plants for these purposes.

I don't expect everyone on this planet to ever feel the way I do. I see this world as being as screwed up on this issue as it is screwed up on just about any issue. Hopefully, there IS an afterlife, or a "New System" right here on earth at some point or whatever kind of spirit world you believe in (hell, I don't even know which I believe in, but anything's gotta be better than this!) And I believe that in THAT perfect world everyone will understand, innately, what I've just said, what so many others believe, and which we are often called "Animal Wacktivists" for.

Before anyone stops giving to PETA, etc. I suggest finding out more about them. I've never heard that they don't want us to keep cats and dogs as pets, at least, it is not a part of their mission statement. More likely it is espoused by a few people who identify themselves as members of PETA, meaning that they have sent PETA money and maybe even only ONCE, and who have taken it upon themselves to use PETA's name in connection with some of their more radical ideas or actions. I suggest contacting their office directly if you want their take on this, as I have read and heard them in interviews defending just this type of misrepresentation.

This is what helps keep me alive in the meantime. The belief that in the next place, "...the lion will lay down with the lamb." Or whatever the quote is.

PS: I wrote this in the"quick reply" box at the bottom of the page so it came up as "Re: Fayreody." It's not directed at you or anyone. Just my thoughts on the topic in general. Damn stupid box!

One question about that, then, pebblypoo- why are there carnivorous animals? I mean, like aside from humans?

I'm not trying to "disagree," just asking for your take on that.

Yes, I also believe God created us to be vegetarians... orginally. But then, because of the disobedience against him, he used the lamb to clothe his human creations... and sent them out.

I, too, believe that in most situations, animals know of the end coming... which is why deer RUN across man's paved road... and why the horse RUNS at every little thing : he thinks he's going to be eaten! Sick animals know, too, that it is time to go... IMHO.... growing up I soon saw that sick cats always go off alone where we couldn't find them.... and elephants travel to their "graveyard." Certainly in a confined situation, where others have been killed, they sense this danger?

I disagree with torture of any kind... so shall we gas them all so they fall asleep first...? Alas, that will not happen because of the industry, and overhead costs... I respect any organization that wants to improve things. But sometimes, also, just such an organization goes a bit too far in trying to control our lives. We are to have dominion. That still hasn't changed.

SweetC - On the topic of the cycle of life, and carnivorous animals - haven't you ever watch StarTrek or any those shows? In the future, we humans are ALL vegetarians! We continue to evolve! Seriously, imho, it's no longer necessary for humans to eat animals. It used to be, but it's not now (At least in this country, for people who can afford alternatives to hunting their meals, yada yada, insert exception clauses here).

Hugs...now you know for SURE I won't bite!

em

Well, ever since I visited this post, I can't even stand to eat meat. My mom understands, though, because she lived next to an abusive farme when she was in high schoolr. I think it's sad that people would torture anyone or anything. (I have to admit, I kill spiders out of fear, and I know that can't feel good for them) I've been a vegitarian before, out of health interests, so switching back prolly won't be THAT hard for me. And I still haven't seen that video. I went with the text, and that was enough for me. I guess I just can't support such a cruel industry with a clear consious.

Emmy-

I'm not disputing whether or not people should be carnivores! I was just asking because pebblypoo sounded like she was saying it was totally unnatural and never intended by God for any animal to eat another. I wanted to find out how she views carnivores then. My question is more of a curiousity than anything- not an arguement.

And no I do not watch star trek so I didn't know! lol!

Thanks for not biting!!

Angela

actually sweet, I believe, as many theologs do, that animals were all grass eaters before the curse... and afterwards it became part of the curse that beast would eat beast... and things were not so peaceful... so it was God's plan b????

...but no fear for... the lion shall lay down with the lamb.....

Ok I see that, Sky. Thanks for that interp. Actually I think that is part of my religion, too, but I had forgotten it.

Do I have a direct line to God? I wish!

Like Sky said, (and I'm no biblical scholar, so don't think I'm paraphrasing or anything when I give my opinions,) I believe that we were given free will, and apparently the first humans screwed that up for the rest of us and chaos ensued, thus carniverous animals among other things. I believe that if there is any kind of after-life we will still be given free will, but, having seen the mess this place was in, most will make the "proper" choices, and those that don't, I don't know. Banished forever? Sent back to this hell-hole to live another life here, then given another chance at eternity in peace?

Or maybe it all just fades to black when we die.

As I let a touch of ocd get the better of me, I made a spelling error yesterday. Should be moot, not mute. Grammar doesn't hang me up, but spelling errors drive me nuts.

About 25 yrs vegetarianism here --- the last 10 of it vegan.

My guiding text for veg-ism was Diet for a Small Planet by Lappe. My personal belief is that eating only plant foods is good for the planet, good for us nutritionally, and obviously stops the widespread inhumane housing and unnecessary slaughter of other sentient beings.

I'm for jumping right in and becoming a vegetarian. Why? Well, I couldn't do it any other way. My taste buds couldn't adjust to going back and forth between animal and vegetable meals. My palate would become jaded if I ate animal foods, and I would then be unable to appreciate the more subtle flavors of vegetarian meals. And, understanding what I do now about the harm dairy does us, I would even recommend going vegan right away.

However, there's more to the art of eating right --- than going vegetarian. It's important to first study nutrition and hydration, vitamins and minerals, PH balance and the balance of fiber and nonfibrous food, as well as maintaining healthy blood sugar levels --- before making big changes in diet. And you need to know how far you must travel to buy economical vegan foods and vegan cookbooks. I'd also recommend finding a veggie website, with a bulletin board, so you can talk to others about how to plan and cook the types of meals you enjoy --- as well as the specific foods to look for in health food stores.

In my opinion, vegetarianism is not for the faint of heart, for the confirmed fast food eater, or for those who are still undecided.

It does work out nicely for the singleminded lazy person, like myself, however. I prefer simple and easy to prepare veggie meals. I eat crazy combinations that others wouldn't enjoy because they're faster and designed to give me super nutrition and suit my taste buds. I can do that, because I don't cook for others.

Whether you're on the long journey or the short journey to vegetarianism, I highly recommend it.

Adieu

Okay, so I told my boyfriend about the whole vegitarian thing, and he thinks it's really dumb to be a vegitarian after I told him I was SERIOUSLY considering it. I told him about what they do to animals, and he obviously was well aware of it and just said "that's just how they mass produce meat." and, okay, not trying to dump my personal life on everyone here, but let me just say that I'm not supposed to eat meat, anyway, because I'm a special diseased kid (woo, diseases) and I told him all about that, but he was like "It hasn't made a difference in you so far!" (he didn't know me before I went off "THE DIET") he said "I want you to be able to eat whatever you want to eat without having to worry about... blah, blah, blah" (I don't think he realizes the diet I'm gonna have to be on if I ever wanna have kids!... yet again... woo diseases!) Can anyone think of something I can say to help get him to not think it's such a stupid idea? He's a great guy, he's just a little stubborn. (I don't wanna have to resort to pouty faces and saying "you mean you don't care about my health?") Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Kay,

You just need to do what you feel is right for you, no matter what anyone else says. I wanted to be a vegetarian for a long time before I actually found the confidence to tell my husband and others that I was not going to eat meat. My husband grew up on his grandparents' cattle ranch, so vegetarianism is a completely foreign concept to him and all of his relatives, who don't approve of me much anyway. I guess that's another reason why I have changed gradually. Make it clear that you are not going to force your decision on him also. That may be what he's worried about.

You know, I spent enough years eating what somebody else wanted me to eat. My husband doesn't like onions and peppers and mushrooms and a whole list of other things. For a long time, I didn't eat them either because he complained if I bought them, and I felt bad. Sometimes he just said it was stupid to eat those things that he doesn't happen to like. I never wanted to make him eat them, but I never really questioned it.

I still have a tendency to feel bad about inconveniencing people by not wanting to eat what they want to cook and offer to share. I feel bad when I have to remind them at work not to put meat on my plate, or I have to refuse a plate because there is meat on it. Some staff were not letting the girls dish up a plate for me without meat, because the policy is not to make accomodations for staff. That makes me feel pretty worthless. But the director did post a notice saying that staff may request not to have items - just no 'special orders.' There are two other staff who don't eat meat either, except that they will eat poultry, so I'm the most extreme and I feel bad for that.

And then I also feel bad when I hear from other vegetarians who are more strict than I am, and I feel like I'm not doing it right. But then I think how much more inconvenient it would be for people to accomodate me if I went vegan. I don't want to take it that far, and I feel bad about that.

You can always find cause to feel bad. There will always be someone who sees it differently than you do. You just have to make your own decisions, and let people know gently but firmly that that is the way you will live your life. As long as you are not imposing your decision on them, it is their problem if they don't like your choice, and you don't have to justify it. You can discuss your reasoning if you choose, but don't let anyone tell you that your choice is silly or whatever. You don't owe them any explanation at all.