[shakespeare47]

Any other rational thinkers and/or philosophers out there?

I've been listening to Rationally Thinking a lot lately... and came across the fact that one can actually get Philosophical counseling. The methods are explained in the book Plato: Not Prozac:Applying Eternal Wisdom to Everyday Problems I don't know that I can find such a counselor nearby, but, the book is very interesting..

Basically, instead of psychological advice, the counselor is an expert who gives philosophical advice.

[vonmoxie]

Well.. not sure I could call myself a rational thinker with a straight face (though I'm blessed to find myself where I do on the curve) or a philosopher (since that's a term I reserve for the Kierkegaards and Deleuzes of the world).. but I suppose there's context somewhere in which it could be stated as such.

I didn't know there was philosophical counseling to be had as treatment, but I've often wished I could have found a therapist who at least had an understanding of advanced philosophy. I suppose the idea of it actually being incorporated into a treatment methodology seemed like too much to hope for. I also don't have a clear sense of how true to the original work the practice of Lacanian psychoanalysis is, but where I live it's hard to find anyone taking new patients even with good insurance, let alone with that kind of specialty. A lot of therapy seems to be needed in these thar hills. I do have a colleague that is a philosophy professor of some renown, that I've considered asking where he turns when he finds himself in a more existential crisis, but I haven't yet been able to decide if he'd be likely to take the question personally.

In my own personal experience I've found a direct correlation between the degree to which a therapist is able to grasp broader philosophical concepts though, and the relative success of the treatment process. I think it has to do with better big-picture thinking and ultimately diagnostics; with helping to not be a hammer that sees everything as a nail.

[shakespeare47]

I was being very lenient in my use the of word philosopher., lol... I'm definitely not a philosopher in the sense that I'm not an expert in the field. What I meant to do was to ask if anyone else was interested in philosophy.

I'm very interested.... Philosophy is, at it's most basic, a search for truth. And it's practice includes tools to help determine if what we have are actually justified beliefs (as close the to truth as possible) or merely opinions.

Critical thinking and rational thought are also very important tools in philosophy.

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] In more casual speech, by extension, "philosophy" can refer to "the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group".[4]

Philosophy covers these areas of inquiry

• 1.1 Epistemology
• 1.2 Logic
• 1.3 Metaphysics
• 1.4 Ethics and political philosophy
• 1.5 Aesthetics
• 1.6 Specialized branches

You know, I think I may have been searching for just this sort of thing. A life-purpose sort of approach to healing. It's weird because I loved philosophy when I studied it (very peripherally) in college, but I never connected my strong desire for a therapist who could help me change my holistic outlook, and a desire for exploring my existence with those old Greeks. It's so logical too, now that I'm reading this, because often in depression that exact same thought "Why am I here? Why do I exist?" is recycled again and again, but the thought becomes destructive instead of igniting curiosity.
This is cool! Thank you! How strange that I should be surprised, when a friend of mine had me listening to the philosophy of Osha, and Indian thinker, when I was at my most despondent. And a lot of it worked. Gandhi's ideological works also brought me out of my self.
I guess I was doing some of this on my own. Searching for new ways of thinking in literature, fiction and nonfiction, political ideologies versus personal memoirs, memoirs of mental illness, recovery, medication, hospitalization, and alternative healing. Trying Tai Chi, vegetarianism, feminism, yoga, meditation and nature walks as practices for healthy and ethical minded living. Looking to volunteer and give back in the community. All philosophical pursuits!
I wonder if this could be helpful for bipolar people. I had a friend who had the most marvelous epiphanies when he was manic, but there was just not enough patience in the world to listen to all of them! While he couldn't really participate in a two-sided argument then, I wonder if manic philosophical ideas could be discussed rationally when the person came down from the high? Imagine group therapy for bipolar disorder: a group of people sharing their ideas about society that came to them in a state of extreme mental activity? Kind of like artists on speed..
For depressives, philosophical discussion could be very effective. I think people who always remain receptive to learning, can be more trustworthy than those who are close minded or think they are "experts". Maybe therapists don't think this about themselves, but a philosophical therapist is guaranteed to be open.
There was a time in college when I asked myself what I really wanted to be deep in my soul, and the answer was: a philosopher. I wanted to sit under a tree outside every day and have lively discussions with people about life. Right about now, that sounds pretty good to me.

[shakespeare47]

Philosophy is a little different than I thought it would be... Unfortunately, not everyone interested in philosophy agrees that, at it's most basic, it's a search for the truth.

I've been disappointed to find that many who are involved with philosophy see it as a tool to promote whatever they happen to believe, using the rational thought and logic that they learned from philosophy.

But, one needn't be sidetracked by those types. After a while, it become obvious that they aren't really playing by the rules.

For me, it's still a tool that can be used to consider various ways of looking at the world, and decide for myself which is closest to the truth.

Learning about logic, rational thought, critical thinking, and epistemology can only help one in life... no matter what one does for a living.

[shakespeare47]

T.H. Huxley "My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonise with my aspirations."

and "I would rather be the offspring of two apes than be a man and afraid to face the truth."

[Altered Moment]

I love philosophy. I took a philosophy class in college but they start with Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Nietzsche.

I like to pick and choose my own books.

But yes my form of philosophy which contains a lot of spiritual stuff is a big part of my treatment. Even though it is spiritual in many ways it is rational, logic based. May sound contradictory.

[Partless]

But that's not treatment, that's just talking philosophy. What makes it therapeutic?

So let's say part of my anxiety is related to dying, to disappearing, to losing my loved ones, etc. What can a philosopher offer me? Not certainty, of course. Perhaps just mention different possibilities, different philosophical views on life after death? But I could just read them in a book. And I'm not sure they would necessarily make me feel better or more hopeful.

[Just keep swimming]

I love philosophy! I'm so glad you started this thread. One of my favorite books is Irving Yalom's, Existential Psychotherapy. Have you ever read it?

I think there have been times when following a faulty philosophical train of thought of mine, has led me to a depressing dead end. Then it's been tremendously helpful to find out what directions other philosophers have taken. I think it serves the same purpose and it has the same feeling as when a therapist helps me become aware of other options or possibilities. (I really got a lot our of reading about Voltaire's approach to life.)

I had a psychiatrist once who did seem to understand how my thoughts could color my worldview. His reply to my struggles with the questions of "isn't it really all meaningless" and "is it really worth it all" was, "Yes, that is the big question. Isn't it?". As if he had struggled with the same question. But it would have helped me so much if he had been able to suggest that I might want to read what Kierkegaard said about passion and a leap of faith or what other philosopher's have come up with.

So, not only do I believe philosophy would be helpful therapy, I think that for some of us, like myself, who spend way, way too much time thinking and worrying about the big questions, an awareness of the different schools of philosophy could be essential to our emotional health.

I think I once read about some association of philosophers who worked counseling people. I need to look that up again. I look forward to hearing thoughts you and others have about this topic. Thanks, so much, - Swim

[Just keep swimming]

And thanks so much for your book suggestion.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Partless

But that's not treatment, that's just talking philosophy. What makes it therapeutic?

So let's say part of my anxiety is related to dying, to disappearing, to losing my loved ones, etc. What can a philosopher offer me? Not certainty, of course. Perhaps just mention different possibilities, different philosophical views on life after death? But I could just read them in a book. And I'm not sure they would necessarily make me feel better or more hopeful.

The book Plato: Not Prozac has specific examples of how a philosophical counselor uses philosophy to help people deal with real, everyday problems.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Just keep swimming

I love philosophy! I'm so glad you started this thread. One of my favorite books is Irving Yalom's, Existential Psychotherapy. Have you ever read it?

Thanks for the book recommendation, I haven't heard of it, I'll be sure to check it out.

I've also been frustrated while talking to counselors in that I do talk about philosophical questions, and have gotten some hems and haws and blank stares instead of meaningful discussions.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

The book Plato: Not Prozac has specific examples of how a philosophical counselor uses philosophy to help people deal with real, everyday problems.

So I have to read the whole book? Can't you give examples?

[Just keep swimming]

Originally Posted by Partless

So I have to read the whole book? Can't you give examples?

I haven't read the book but I think I can try to explain how learning about some philosophers has helped me deal with my depression. There are lots of factors that influence my sense of hopelessness. For a long time I would just try to not think about how everyone I love (and myself) would die and humanity was going to eventually destroy itself. And life seemed pretty meaningless. Next I would try to believe what the majority of other people believe. But even if I really tried, I felt like I was forcing myself to think a certain way and I suspected I was just lying to myself. Life just really seemed to rot and it seemed to rot for millions of people on earth. There was no getting around that.

Then I ran across some philosophers that seemed to think the same way I did. What helped me was to see what they did when they reached the same spot I was at. They didn't just stop there, they went on. "OK, so life rots and is meaningless. Now what?"

It seemed that Voltaire thought some of the same things I did about the randomness and unfairness of life. So I could stop trying to conform my thoughts to everyone else's and I could stop trying to just not have the thoughts. Two quotes of his really helped: "Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats." and "I have chosen to be happy because it is good for my health." So I got unstuck a little and started to learn more about how to enjoy life even though it rots.

But this helped me because my thoughts had already gotten me stuck. Lots of times people would tell me to just stop thinking too much. But for me that wasn't the answer. It would have helped if someone had said, " Oh yeah, other people have struggled with that, here are some of their thoughts that you might want to look at."

Hope that made a little sense. I'm not saying philosophy would help everyone, but it's really helped me.

[Partless]

Just keep swimming, thank you. When I started reading your present post, and given that you started out saying you hadn't read the book, I had very low expectations so I was pleasantly surprised that your post was very helpful to me!

I don't know much about Voltaire, aside from that famous freedom of speech quote (which is presumably misattributed to him anyways). But I do know what you're talking about, about getting stuck somewhere mentally. It's like about about following a certain train of thought, and it's kind of like going on a journey, and people don't know where you are and don't know how to help, so they kind of tell you to come back home, and that's all the help they could offer. But then you you read a philosopher and you suddenly realized the guy has gone as far as you and did not stop! That there is a way forward! Like you say, he might have continued with, "Now what?"

So suddenly you don't feel alone, you don't feel lost either. And perhaps to read Voltaire say, "I have chosen to be happy because it is good for my health," is different than a regular therapist suggesting that to you, the assumption being that the T is unable or unwilling to take your mental journey but the philosopher has, and so his sayings come from a very different place, and are more meaningful and convincing to you.

[shakespeare47]

Here are some of the chapter titles

Seeking a Relationship
Maintaining a Relationship
Family Life and Strife
When Work Doesn't Work
Midlife without Crisis
Why be Moral or Ethical?
Finding Meaning and Purpose?
Gaining from Loss.

Many of the chapters mention specific people with specific problems and how they were helped.

[Just keep swimming]

Wow! Yeah. I think that's what I meant. Although, I think it sounded much better when you explained it. Thanks for taking the time to carefully read what I wrote. Your reply itself made me feel more understood and less alone.

[Just keep swimming]

Sometimes I discuss philosophical stuff with my therapist but I've kind of gotten used to not being able to discuss my thoughts with most people. I used to think my thoughts were just too strange. That's one of the reasons that it's a relief when I discover that some of the philosophers have had some of the same ideas.

I did have a therapist who was really good at listening to my ideas and listened carefully but it felt like I was paying a lot of money to have a philosophical discussion. So I started seeing if I could find other places where I could have these discussions.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Just keep swimming

Sometimes I discuss philosophical stuff with my therapist but I've kind of gotten used to not being able to discuss my thoughts with most people. I used to think my thoughts were just too strange. That's one of the reasons that it's a relief when I discover that some of the philosophers have had some of the same ideas.

I did have a therapist who was really good at listening to my ideas and listened carefully but it felt like I was paying a lot of money to have a philosophical discussion. So I started seeing if I could find other places where I could have these discussions.

You might try meetup.com... and/or do a google search for Philosophical Cafe's in your area.

[Just keep swimming]

I really like Kierkegaard. Today I learned a little more about his ideas on commitment and what it means to truly live. I think he thought that to be really alive you need to risk and decide to commit to something even though you're not 100% sure and even if it doesn't seem to make sense.

So after a lifetime of trying to establish a healthier relationship with food and failing hundreds of times, and knowing the statistics on the success rate of people trying to change, and even knowing that the best predictor of the future is past behavior, I'm still committed to trying to make a positive change. At this point I'm not even worried about my small chance of succeeding, it's just the way I choose to live. I choose to do everything I can, learn everything I can and change what I can, as if I'm assured success. And when I take a few steps backward, I'll just start again.

Camus wrote an essay on Sisyphus, looking at how he could be considered a hero. Camus looked at different approaches Sisyphus could have toward having to push the rock uphill. One approach was for Sisyphus to make the rock "his thing". Then his work would be meaningful. Well I think I'm going to try to make successfully changing my relationship with food "my thing", and not concern myself with whether or not my "eating disorder rock" rolls down the hill a million times. Wish me luck.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by Just keep swimming

Wow! Yeah. I think that's what I meant. Although, I think it sounded much better when you explained it. Thanks for taking the time to carefully read what I wrote. Your reply itself made me feel more understood and less alone.

You're welcome.

[Sprintalk]

I have read the thread thoroughly and suddenly remembered Existential Therapy, from Yalem, which is close to what you are texting about. Currently, ACT therapy (Hayes, Luciano) uses many resources from East psychology.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_therapy

[shakespeare47]

The philosophy of stoicism sounds very interesting and useful.

It's even at the root of cognitive behavioral therapy.

Many participate in Stoics Week.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Partless

But that's not treatment, that's just talking philosophy. What makes it therapeutic?

So let's say part of my anxiety is related to dying, to disappearing, to losing my loved ones, etc. What can a philosopher offer me? Not certainty, of course. Perhaps just mention different possibilities, different philosophical views on life after death? But I could just read them in a book. And I'm not sure they would necessarily make me feel better or more hopeful.

I've been thinking about this. Epicurianism deals a lot with death. It's an entire philosophy based on seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. The funny thing is, they were a moderate bunch, interested in good friendships and living ethically.
Why? Because they found that extremes (like drunken orgies) led to too much pain. They found ethical living to be what helped them maximize the pleasure in their lives.

But, a very big part of the philosophy was to teaching his followers not to fear death.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by Just keep swimming

I really like Kierkegaard. Today I learned a little more about his ideas on commitment and what it means to truly live. I think he thought that to be really alive you need to risk and decide to commit to something even though you're not 100% sure and even if it doesn't seem to make sense.

Wish me luck.

I had no idea what to think about Kierkegaard, and then I enrolled in a free MOOC class put on by the University of Copenhagen. I found I really liked his teachings. He basically argued that what really matters is one's own view of life. He encouraged everyone to determine for himself how to live the best life one was capable of, and used Socrates as a good example to follow.

I do wish you luck!