I'm starting to feel hopeless about having a BPD

Lou,
I'm curious as to how these logic constructs relate to supporing GL. Would you say more about that, please?

gg

PS and thanks for linking that source. I've never taken a course in logic, so when people mention these constructs, I don't always know to what they are referring.

I'm curious, too, about how logical fallacies would relate to supporting GreenLeaves. Can you elaborate, Lou?

While I can see that logic can be very important for many purposes, it really doesn't enter into the world of emotions. Emotions, by definition, are not governed by logic or reason, and I think it can be pretty damaging to try to apply logic to emotions.

That's said as someone who has trouble because of all the pressure put on me to be logical to the exclusion of emotion. It's not something I'd encourage anyone to try to apply to emotions.

CBT type therapy can be very helpful for a lot of people, and that model does use the application of reason to emotions -- but that has to be AFTER the client is capable of recognizing emotion, and can accept emotion. I am not sure that GL is there yet.

Just my gut reaction here, and I'm still quite curious as to the relevance of fallacies to this thread.

Thanks sara for your post. I honestly never thought of things that way. All I know is that what I feel is usually not normal for an adult, but I don't know how it is not normal. I don't really know what is "normal".

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Go on. How does that unfamiliar feeling feel to you?

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When people like you and gg post supportive things to me, it feels like it is precious and valuable, but fleeting. It feels like a warm blanket on a very cold day, but that blanket will be taken away just like that if I do something wrong. And I know that I will do something wrong. I do not know what exactly will be seen as "something wrong" so I have a lot of fear. I get frustrated about people taking away my support before it even happens. I get upset and sometimes support is taken away...my worse fears come true. I take that to mean that I'm a horrible person undeserving of support and that people all hate me.

So, the unfamiliar feeling can give me great anxiety sometimes, because I feel like I can't live without support, but I know that the support will be taken away when I'm not good and sometimes I don't know how to be good.

I don't know if I made any sense here.

Hi Lou

It's a fascinating article you gave me to read. I don't have time to read through every bit of it. I skimmed it quickly. Can you tell me what you perspective is?

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Greenleaves said:
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Go on. How does that unfamiliar feeling feel to you?

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So, the unfamiliar feeling can give me great anxiety sometimes, because I feel like I can't live without support, but I know that the support will be taken away when I'm not good and sometimes I don't know how to be good.

I don't know if I made any sense here.

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Yes, honey, you did make sense. That sounds like a very frightening place, sort of dizzying emotionally, as though there's a rule book that everyone else has telling them how to be, and you're on your own trying to figure it out. Does that sound right to you?

For what it's worth, I have felt that a lot, and finally said it one night in my eating disorders group -- and EVERYONE there said that they'd felt the same thing. Even though it's different for all of us, it's also the same for all of us. We all feel as though we missed picking up that rule book, even if we react to it in different ways.

So go back and read what you wrote. Do you see where you wrote that you </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
know that the support will be taken away when I'm not good and sometimes I don't know how to be good.

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How do you know? Is that in the rule book you're making up for yourself? That no relationship can have any more permanence than that? That you are only accepted on spec, and once you're found less than completely perfect you'll be rejected?

It sounds to me as though you're so convinced of that, that you're creating it -- it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since someone else will reject you, you may as well make it for cause?

Let me tell you a secret -- from a middle aged woman to a young woman: ALL of my friends are imperfect. (Although one comes damn close, because she has red hair.) Every one of my friends has made a mistake in life, and many have made mistakes relating to our friendships. And yet, they're still my friends. That is possible in this world, you know. All you have to do is stop anticipating!

Here's a quick illustration for you of something similar:

I was working with a horse once, who had learned to stop in front of fences. Because it's so easy to come off a horse who stops, I was bracing myself on the way to the fences, since I anticipated that she would stop. Problem was, she could feel me bracing for the stop, so that's what she did -- she did was she could feel me preparing for. It was only once I sucked down my fear of falling and prepared for her to get over the fences that she could jump. So, maybe if you can get over some of your fear of the unknown, you can learn that you don't always have to be perfect.

Does that make sense?

(((((((((((((((GL)))))))))))))))))

You explained yourself so well in stating how it feels to be where you're at. What honesty you put down here. It really gives me a better sense of your struggles and the need to feel better, if only for a moment.

You have some people here who really care and understand, and their words are meant to help and offer understanding.

I'm proud of you, GL. Again, feel free to PM anytime.

KD

GL<
YOu wrote,[...fascinating article you gave me...skimmed it...can you tell me what your perspective is?...].
I would like for you to finish reading the article before I post my support for you from my perspective, and in particular the part on "poisoning the well" and "hasty generalization".
Lou

Lou, exactly what is your perspective? I still haven't figured that out.

(I think Lou is saying that you must read the article as a mandatory prerequisite to hearing his perspective)

Sooooo, GL basically has to provide a book report on the article before "support... from my perspective" is offered? Gotcha.

Lmo,
You wrote,[...Lou is saying that you {must} read the articl as a {mandatory} prerequisite...].
I have requested that GL read the article and there is no obligation to do so. It is an option. The reading of the article could provide more light on what I could offer her for support if she would choose to accept the opportunity to read my perspective. She could decline my request to read the article and I could still offer support from my perspective.
Lou

Ok, sorry to misinterpret you. I posted the above to help clarify because I thought she already did that.

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Greenleaves said:It's a fascinating article you gave me to read. I don't have time to read through every bit of it. I skimmed it quickly. Can you tell me what you perspective is?

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(that was for Lou, not Greenleaves)

Lmo,
You wrote,[...sorry to misinterpret...].
I am offering support to GL and I would {like} for her to finish the article, in particular but not limited to the parts about ad hominem and irrelevant conclusion because they play a great part in understanding the support that I could offer from my perspective. But she is under no obligation to do so. She could decline and say that she welcomes my perspective {without} the reading of the article and I would proceed to offer her support from my perspective.
Lou

Ok.

Hey - I had an idea, as a suggestion. Why don't you take the parts of the article that you think are important, paste them in your response to GL in conjuction with your support from your perspective, and and also give the link to the entire article in case she or anyone else wants to read the whole thing? That would probably speed the process up.

Lmo,
You wrote,[...parts of the articel that you think are important...speed...up..].
My offer to GL of support from my perspective is an offer only. It is usually not my intent ot offer support unless the person requests such. In this thread, the initiator is Greenleaves and if she invited me to offer my support to her I would be glad to do so, but at her request so that I am not going to post such untill she determines the time that she would want me to do so.
Lou

As you wish. I was just trying to help, especially since it appears that she already asked you twice for your perspective. I think you're being very considerate by not pushing unwanted support onto people, but in this case, I think she has made it clear that she would value and appreciate whatever you have to say.

Just trying to help, Lou. No offense meant.

Lmo,
Sometimes I think that some things could shed more light on a subject and ask if one could read a particular article. Sometimes they write that they {do not want to} read and that I could proceed without. If GL was to explicitly write that, then I would proceed at that point. I am waiting to hear from her as to if she wants to read the parts about ad hominem first, or not. I think that we are at that juncture then. In this case, GL wrote,[..can you tell me what your perspective is?...] My reply requested that she read the part about ad hominem and hasty generalization because she also wrote that she only skimmed the article and I think that the support that I could offer her from my perspective could be {better} understood if she read those parts first ,although she is under no obligation to do so.
Lou

Can we bring this back to GreenLeaves, please? From what she's written, she actually needs support -- not a front row seat at a debate about whether or not to offer support to her, nor a reading assignment, nor any sort of response that includes the overarching sense that her emotional responses are in some fundamental manner wrong.

How about we leave off baiting Lou_Pilder for a while, or start a new thread to do it? And Lou? How about you think about whether offering a logic lesson is likely to feel supportive to someone who's already feeling as though she's wrong or bad or just screwed up because of what she feels? Try to put yourself in her place, hard as I am sure that is for you to do in this case.

GL, I hope you're still here, and that you're starting to feel a bit of a thaw in that icy fear. Kimmy_Dawn is right -- you've displayed real honesty here, which takes courage, and I think that if you can put that much effort and trust in a therapist, you're going to do great.

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Greenleaves said:
Thanks sara for your post. I honestly never thought of things that way. All I know is that what I feel is usually not normal for an adult, but I don't know how it is not normal. I don't really know what is "normal".

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Thank you GL. I've been where you are now, though I think I did things to cause people to react differently than what you're doing, but the feelings of being lost and hopeless and let's not forget worthless are still the same.

I am 40+ years old and all my life I have been searching for love, acceptance, understanding, etc., all those things we thought we got when we were small children, but actually didn't for one reason or another. What has made such a difference in my life recently is coming across a section in this website that speaks about the Inner Child, the Parent and the Adult within all of us. Some people like you and me, and I suspect many others, have either suppressed the growth of the Adult which allows the Child or the Parent to dominate our lives now. The Child is emotions, bare and naked to the world, whereas the Parent acts either to discipline or encourage the antics of the emotional Child. When the Parent is in control, we can be bossy and harsh with others even when they are trying to help us. We tend to play the same game in an attempt to get what we need, however demented the game is, it still appears to work for us, even though in the end it pushes people away.

I had been looking through this website and searched under memory loss because I have huge gaps in my past where there is nothing to recall. I seem to have only the bad memories that come forward which have driven me since childhood. What I found has made so much sense to me and I have used this information in the past few months to understand what happened to me and how to fix it. After reading this section I also bought the book, 'Inner Child of the Past' and found myself in 3 areas. I am now reading Dr Thomas Harris's book 'I'm Ok You're Ok' and I think I have never been this comfortable within myself in my entire life. It has changed me, because I can see now the different parts of me and how the Child and the Parent inside have contaminated my Adult self. For proof of this, I could tell you of the temper tantrums I have had, one only about 2 months ago, and I'm 40+ years old. LOL!

I would suggest you read this part of the website, yes it's long, but if you are ready to make changes, it is well worth the time. The website is in my signature.