Aversion to pharmaceuticals?

I don't understand why people like us, and others, are so against taking medicine? I realize some of the side effects are not desirable, makes us dull, tired, boring, no sex drive, gain weight, etc. but some effects are beneficial, we don't cry all the time, we don't SI, we can work, etc.

I know getting the right combination is very challenging, but isn't it worth it to feel good even great most of the time?

I understand the meds are expensive, not everyone has resources to buy them, not all therapists and PDocs are created equal, pharmaceutical companies fight for territory and prescribing doctors attention, etc.

But if you have something that is helping you, why give it up? Would you remove a leg cast before your bone was healed just because you don't like the way the cast feels and sounds when you are walking?

Just a wandering mind with one too many a Ted Bull.

The problem is you probably won't be able to stop the med like you can remove a cast. Meds only help symptoms. They are not a cure. I don't want my feelings dulled the rest of my life. The meds affect my ability to do art. That's really important to me. The more I learn about depression the more I feel there are environmental and social causes that are solved, possibly by design, from meds. The more I learn that the more I realize a chemical treatment is only a mask. Sure. It's easier to take a pill. A lot of people decide to go that route and that's fine for them. And there are people that will not be able to live without meds and I feel for them. But many if not most people taking drugs aren't in that class until after they start. That is unfair because they weren't warned and they weren't given options (me included). That's just not how our culture should be. Rambling a little.

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Sorry for the "spam". I don't feel great most of the time on meds. I feel "ok". If given the choice I would rather feel great some of the time and learn how to work with the depression some of the time instead of feeling "ok" most of the time. But that's me.

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I completely understand. It's just a curiosity I've had. I used to wean myself from Zoloft back in the day. I didn't know the skills to cope with depression.

Do you believe in the theory of chemical imbalance with neurotransmitters?

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just wanting to explore why people do things a certain way. I heard there is a law in the works where it will try to take away our rights to take meds or not, and our choice to check into psych hospital or not. If this is true and it passes it really concerns me.

It isn't really something you can believe in, not an opinion. Science has discredited it. Antidepressants and antipsychotics can reduce symptoms/ reduce how much you care or react to symptoms, but it doesn't mean they're correcting a preexisting imbalance. But just because the neurotransmitter imbalance explanation isn't supported, this doesn't discredit any and all future biological explanations. Obviously something is happening in the brain and body.

People are averse to them for a number of reasons. Some people don't want to rely on a drug to change their mood or thought patterns. Some people don't like being told they have a flawed brain that can only be remedied by an inevitably increasing number of drugs. The negative effects are very real: shortened life span, heart disease, diabetes (among other health conditions), brain shrinkage, emotional/ motivation blunting, lethargy and excess sleeping, etc--it goes on. Not to mention many people get worse or have downright been hurt by them. Also, the environment and attitude of the situation surrounding the medication prescribing affects attitudes as well.

It's not an indictment of people who do rely on psych drugs that others might not want them or can function without them. Medications might reduce your symptoms and thus increase your quality of life or reduce subjective suffering, and people should have the chance to take them for--given a true informed choice.

And rarely do patients get enough information to make an informed choice. When your feeling bad you just want to fix it. That's understandable but I'm sure you have had the experience of zero information even when you are well enough to receive it. You pretty much have to know to hunt it down.

You might like this video:

http://www.ted.com/speakers/joshua_walters.html

It's about 5 minutes.

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I don't want to get into another long discussion with Michanne but the theory of chemical imbalance is only a small part of the story. It was largely propagated by research done by the drug companies that make the SSRI's and SNRI's. In my opinion it has some validity but is only a small piece of the puzzle. 50% of the people are helped by these drugs. The truth is they don't really have a clue why or how they work. There are negative effects for sure. They have caused major sexual dysfunction for me. I don't know if it is reversible. I strongly believe for me it is biological/ chemical/ and genetic with environmental triggers and sometimes no triggers. I was born predisposed. This is not true for everyone. For some it is trauma and abuse that changes the brain. Maybe for them therapy and alot of hard work is all that is needed to change the brain back or maybe they needs meds to even get started on that process. There is alot of research going on but it is very complex. The chemical imbalance theory is just way to simplified.

There's a thread called "what is chemical imbalance?" This post is about the bill you are referring to:
http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=326700

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About the bill- sheer ignorance and I am sure is motivated by the school shootings we have had.

I think that's what they're using to sell it but it is all big pharma greed behind the scenes.

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"Oh no! another school shooting! This will never end! We must take away mass murder ANTIDEPRESSANTS from the ALL of the depressed!"

- Murica..

No one really knows why some people have such "imbalances" and as another poster here said, it has been way too oversimplified. There is no way to prove why some people are affected by seratonin, dopamine, norepinepherine...but they are.

With depression it is more subjective, since you are just as likely to respond to an AD as you are to a placebo or even nothing at all. It is etablished that some of us by nature are predisposed to depression and anxiety. Its also true that by nature some peple are also more resiliant than others. Others need a little more help. What is unfortunate are instances where patients don't have the resources to or providers respectful enough to keep them fully informed. And if you start meds young enough its possible you were never given the chance to develop coping skills that would have eliminated the need for meds. I feel like I was one of those kids who this happened to. That I was just depressed so doctors gave me everything...elavil, imiprimine, and (high doses of) prozac. All of which at the time stunted my affect and motivation so much that a lot of experiences in m teen years as were missed out on. Now as an adult my treatment focuses on the ADD, GAD and social anxiety. I still take meds, but now they treat my symptoms, which in my case is what's needed. If the symptoms are treated, life gets better and depression dissipates. Its just such a complex issue that I think its futile to have a debate on whether meds are good or bad. Sorry for the ramble, but I feel like maybe if there was more insight into the root of someones depression and treated that, there might be more success.

I recognize the meds seem like a miracle to some people but I have questions about thinking it identifies the cause. If it did I think they could say it is more than a symptomatic treatment. A med can make you feel better if you exhibit certain characteristics and symptoms and that isn't even a sure thing. All it means is it makes you feel better not that some sort of "imbalance" is the reason. I will agree it is an oversimplification though. And that it is often the only option currently.

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Right, meds are chosen based on symptoms. And why they dont tell you what chemical imbalance there is, there is enough evidence to be confident in what neurotransmitters are being effected therapeutically. It is true that SSRIs are very effective for some, while they make others feel worse. The same is true for all the other classes. Ritalin makes everone more focused and energetic, but when you have ADD, you just feel normal. To me that shows a neurological basis. You're right that we cant show what it is, but to me there's been enough evidence to inspire confidence.

this is incorrect. there are people who recover and function better without the long-term use of medications. it's not part of the mainstream narrative of mental illness, but it does happen. It might not be for everyone, but treating everyone like it isn't possible will inevitably hurt some people. Even the director of the nimh has admitted this.

God, please let's not take mental illness back 50 years. OF COURSE there is neurological dysfunction when true mental illness exists. There's no one on this earth who can convince me that medication hasn't improved my life. I have the same questions you do, live2ski66. I'm not saying that meds are perfect, but I do not understand it when someone moans and complains about being depressed or whatever and won't take meds to help themselves. My thought is that if someone refuses to give meds a chance, that person isn't really doing THAT badly. because if someone is truly in a desperate state they will do almost anything to feel better.

They're starting to say that dopamine isn't really the main problem with ADHD, even at all maybe. But Ritalin/amphetamine/cocaine etc work so.. Ya we have a loooooong way to go before we even get close to fully understanding the mega computer that is our brains.

I'm the first to admit that taking a pill is easier doing the work, learning the coping skills. I have sat crying in the PDocs office begging that he find me something else to take because I can't stand the pain, or I'm blah, don't feel anything. I'm not motivated, I don't have a drive, etc. I'm glad he doesn't let me get away with much. I think this phenomena, asking for a pill to solve the problem, goes back to the way our parents raised us. I never had to experience pain of any kind and work my way through self soothing, or resting if an injury. A popular saying among horse back riders is if your horse bucks you off, you get back on the horse and show them who us boss. I had horses growing up and because my father travelled too much, I would have to beg my mother to take me to the country club. One time after about an hour of peaceful riding, my horse was spooked by a low flying airplane. I was not paying attention and flew over the horse's ears. That was the end of my riding for the day. My mother called the groomer and had him take away my horse. Looking back this would have been a perfect opportunity for the two of us to work through our fears. Unfortunately if she fears something, she is convinced everyone should have the same level of fear.

Unfortunately finding resources to learn the skills we need to function in a society that was not designed for us is beyond difficult.

I also agree with the person (sorry, lousy with names) who was placed on drugs early on and never learned the skills needed. My Mommie dearest insisted from the day I was born that I was having neurological problems. Finally at age 8 she convinced the pediatrician that I had experienced an absence seizure and after trotting me off to the neurologist they put me on Dylantin and was not allowed of the drugs until age 18 when I was miraculously cured. I am convinced to this day that the meds were used as a behavioral/control tool rather than because I had a seizure problem. I don't know what I would to to her if I could prove my suspicion true. I believe those years affected me my adult life like nothing else. She has convinced everyone who could possibly help me solve the mystery that she took me to the neurologist and put me on meds to save my life. I wonder what damage Dylantin did to a growing brain.

But I digress. I know everyone on here already knows how I feel about Mommie dearest.

Thank you all for participating in the conversation.

Hey Michanne I did ask by PA about the saliva swab tests and he said one of the PDocs learned all about them at a conference in Las Vegas and are going to start using them. This is community mental health so I was surprised. They are also getting their budget cut by 60% from the state because of medicaid expansion so we will see if they can actually afford the swab tests.

There is a fundamental difference in thinking. I don't need "it works because" all the time. It's the same concept if you troubleshoot something complex whether it is a scientific discovery or a computer problem. When I have something complex to troubleshoot and I find something that helps my response without knowing why it helped is "I only know that when I did this the problem appeared fixed." That does not mean it fixed the problem or that it won't come back. It is then up to whomever to decide if the best course is to continue doing what ever made it seem fixed and move on or to use that information as a clue to get to the actual root cause or do both at the same time. In my experience there are good reasons for all three solutions however not knowing the root cause is risky because you could affect something else inadvertently by using the "fix" or it could get worse because you didn't address the root cause. This happens all the time with MI. It's better for me to say this worked and acknowledge I don't know why.

That's how I approach my job which is not in medicine but I think the same philosophy should be applied to medicine. Most people I read about or talk to that are able to help themselves without meds are doing something outside of directly "fixing the brain". They change the foods they eat or exercise or a combination or something else. So why not say that person changed their diet and it helped so the cause of their MI is food? It is the same problem.

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I don't think you can say this is true. It is much more likely that people who do NOT take meds but use other forms ie. diet and exercise, therapy, meditation, journaling etc. are "fixing the brain". Just not with meds.

There has been extensive research done on stroke victims where they know that one section of the brain was totally damaged and yet through extensive therapy of different kinds that an adjacent area of the brain is remapped and takes over the functions that were lost. Someone who has suffered a loss of speech regains it because an adjacent area or the same area on the opposite side of the brain totally takes over that function. New dentrites grow and the brain gets remapped. I witnessed it happen first hand with my mother. Neuroplasticity is very amazing.

The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force: Jeffrey M. Schwartz, Sharon Begley: 9780060988470: Amazon.com: Books

UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center | UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center

Because to some meds make situation worse.

And puh-lease, taking meds is not "doing everything". It's act of like five seconds of time. Open bottle, pop a pill. Done. Many people stop at that too.

Try learning to meditate. Excercising. Eating healthy... trying to work on your worldview and perspective... all of these take much more effort and YET some people don't do them, cause they are depressed and they can't.

Desperate to try anything? Pills are just small part of the "anything". Yet apparently, it's "offensive" to suggest excercise and eating well. Or spirituality or whatnot.

This is a serious question , how do you meditate and exercise when in the grips of Depression , you body is to wrecked for exercise and your mind is TO screwed for meditation , so what your secret .

live2ski66
Do you believe in the theory of chemical imbalance with neurotransmitters?

I do. I (guess) it works like this, if you watch a normal loving mother she will be bonded with her baby, she will make eye contact, give cuddles, loving touch. This gives the baby a feeling of security, comfort, pleasure 'happy', chemicals are released serotonin/oxytocin/dopamine/endorphins. Well worn pathways are established in the brain.

Take a cold mother, a refrigerator mother, a self absorbed narcissist unable to feel genuine love or empathy (like my mother)
I do not remember any cuddles, hugs, kisses or kind words. I remember feeling lonely, frightened, sad. What then?
'Sad' chemicals are released like cortisol, well worn pathways are made, but this time they are for sad chemicals.

Unsurprisingly neglected & abused children have a high chance of suffering depression and anxiety.

Anti depressants replace the lack of happy chemicals. They are not a cure, but then injections of insulin do not cure diabetes they just provide whats missing.
For me depression was environmental, and meds do help.
I know they do not help everyone, a minority seem to be resistant.

Agree sister rags, I don't understand someone feeling dreadful and refusing to try meds, I just don't get it.