Aversion to pharmaceuticals?

Wasn't addressing you, Michanne. Why did you think I was?

Just a random quote...food for thought.

I have an iPad and totally recommend it for Yoga for people that want some guidance (like me). All the classes now are more like exercise classes. So I prefer it at home. Oh, I went on a canoe trip and there was a yoga guy there that was just my style. But of course he is private specializing in yoga for basketball stars (I got to try on one of Shaquille O'neal's shoes )

Herbs grown in meadows is hard to come by in a dry, high altitude climate Ironically it is easier in the cities around here because community gardens have gotten pretty popular. Store dried herbs are pretty cheap though. Essential oils last forever and the most common (and quite therapeutic) are not that expensive.

But seasonal whole foods are really cheap and abundant. Even at Whole Foods (a really expensive grocery store). I'm am taking full advantage of beets, pears and my favorite, oranges right now. Indulge in a bunch per day for a week (the more raw beets the better) and I swear you will feel lighter and fuller.

Current seasonal list from life spa (scroll to the bottom):

Winter Grocery List - "Vata Balancing Diet"

Yeah, yeah, yeah... lots of posts.

For those interested this is next week:
Food Frustrations? Eat Fad Free - Dr. Douillard's LifeSpa

I've never felt overly "sold" on this site which is kind of annoying to me.

Because you keep bringing up that people who are "that" ill need medicine and my feedback is that is a blanket statement and there are people that are "that" ill that consider themselves recovered without them. The only other person to address it agreed with you, at first. So I am wondering if you think they are kidding themselves or liars or what. You have not answered that question yet.

Organic produce here in Cali is so expensive there is, in fact, a huge and vile debate between those who can afford organic foods and those who are of lower economic classes and simply cannot afford decent food. As for feeding a family, there is no way - unless the family income is that of 2 a high-paid professionals - to afford expensive, quality foods, pay rent/mortgage, pay bills, etc. I would LOVE to follow a vegan/raw foods diet. But a package of raw, dried fruit (for example) costs $9. A raw seed bar - $4 or $5. Kombucha has inched up to $4/bottle. Organic fruits & veggies cost a fortune. Once per month I go to a food give-away that usually hands out dome organic and healthy foods. But that happens only once every month.

I wouldn't trust myself to self-diagnose herbal medicine or other types of integral medicine. Which means that I have to see an herbalist, holistic health practitioner, or acupuncturist. I would love to be able to afford to do so, but it is out of the question.

As for yoga, I practice it - but I learned yoga in classes originally. To try to practice yoga without having had anyone show you the proper way to do yoga is asking for injury.

Bottom line, I can toss a bit of holistic health into my life here & there. occasionally. But the sad fact is that health care is all about money. Whether one practices holistic health or whether one has traditional, western health care...it's about money. For me, and for the majority of people, traditional western health care is the best we can do - and be grateful for that.

No, no, no - I absolutely do not believe they are lying. In my experience, many people who are quite mentally ill are in denial and don't believe their mental illness is "that bad" (if they accept that they have a mental illness at all). Oftentimes, they have convinced themselves that their mental illness is a more acceptable, physical illness. For example, I have a family member who insists she has cardiac problems when she has been repeatedly told by MD's that her "cardiac" problem is, in fact, an anxiety disorder. That she has an anxiety disorder is SO obvious. But she's an older woman and is terribly afraid of being labeled "crazy" and being "put away".

So. If I listen to the people who are close to someone who refuses to believe s/he is mentally ill and needs treatment, the people close to them will usually say that, yes, the person is absolutely nuts and very, very difficult to cope with.

So those who do well are in denial and are in fact not well?

How about admitting, that maybe some found their way outside of western medicine instead of just sucking it up and being grateful?)

Ahhhh....this thread is filled with misunderstanding and incorrectly rewriting thoughts.

Did you, Venus, read my effing sentence????????????????? Here it is AGAIN:

In my experience, many (NOT ALL) people who are quite mentally ill are in denial and don't believe their mental illness is "that bad" (if they accept that they have a mental illness at all).

I then went on to describe someone I KNOW who fits my example.

Holy cow, I really DO feel like I'm in the loony bin here.

Well in the link of recovery stories there were several people that had been diagnosed and admitted to the hospital with some pretty dramatic stories. Not just depression or bipolar but schizophrenia too. They were on very heavy drugs. Their "common" story is they chose to come off the drugs, follow a plan that included a wide range of lifestyle changes (nutrition, exercise, mindfulness, therapy, etc) and now call themselves recovered.

The other link I posted was about a comedian who was on lots of rx drugs in HS, admitted to the hospital in his 20's for a manic episode where he thought he was Jesus. He now uses those manic episodes to inform his routine. In essence, instead of using the drugs to fit in he created an environment (comedy and performance) to suit him. Without meds.

And Venus struggles I gather but is not regularly getting admitted to the hospital. I think her story says she has had a pretty rough time. As rough as your family member? She told her story here. (Sorry to put you on the spot.) Taking the route she is taking is not easy either. Given my lifestyle and career choices I doubt I could have achieved the same success by now, all things being equal.

It is true that there are a lot of people like your family member or people who refuse meds and do not take care of themselves. Someone in my family has been diagnosed with something like bipolar and raised someone on her own. There is such a stigma in that generation of my family that she told no one and her siblings basically ignored the real problem. No wonder she was on and off the antipsychotics. Anytime she felt better she went into denial and her siblings went right along with her. I am one of the only people that saw first hand what she can be like unmedicated. In that scenario there is no way an unmedicated approach would work. Simply no support.

Clearly my family member is in denial. Actually that entire generation of my family is. But the other people I described... Are they in denial?

That article you posted is targeting a very wide audience and not very in depth into treatment. If you look at what some of these people have done to be successful it cannot be described in a single article. So if you are going to be responsible you probably do need to say people really sick should talk to trad drs, mainly because that is most available by far. I don't like that she made such a blanket statement and she probably really believes it. I think it is totally doable to do it without meds BUT (big but) you either need to be lucky or rich enough to find a dr who can guide you or really into doing your own research and determined to buck the trend. I don't think you have to be well enough and I do think you can mix approaches. (That last part is Important.)

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I think most people will agree here on this. Of course there are always exceptions to be found but for the most part people with an illness that is that serious will initially need treatment with meds. The newer APs are not as severe as the old school ones which did cause some permanent side effects. The newer ones have side effects too but overall are still better. I do think that the problem is that when patients feel better, they naturally want to stop taking them. Its understandable since who wants any side effects if you're better? Ive done the same myself when anxiety has subsided...Then everything goes downhill and a cycle begins of compliance and non compliance.

Its such a complicated issue since there is so much gray area in the field. There are no absolutes and there likely never will be, the brain is too complex. There is such a strong genetic component to bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, ADHD, autism...but with everything based in theory, everything is open to interpretation.

I have a question for Venus and others who either gather their herbs and mix their tinctures or purchase them at farmers markets or Natural Health Food Sores. How do you guarantee that the dosages have the same potency. How do you know that the potency of today's batch is the same as tomorrow's?
Is it important to have a consistent stream of "medicine" for lack of better word. How does the body react when batch 1 of St Johns Wort contains 5mg of active ingredient (pulled the number out of thin air) and you take that for 8 days and the next batch is 3mg and you take that for 12 days and so on.

I'm just trying to learn.

Venus would know more than I but I do know that you can get excellent accuracy with essential oils. There are lots of calibration and measurement tools in home grown lotion ingredients. I am guessing you don't rely on such accurate doses because they are not as potent. I have found natural sleep aids to be effective but if I were to take an rx I think it would be harder to see that because of the potency factor. That's another complication as I see it. Once you take an AD for a period of time would tryptophan via turkey be a adequate sub (assuming you want the serotonin effect)? Kind of a bummer.

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live2ski66, your question is the most important one someone can ask about non-traditional health practice. I have enormous experience with herbs, herbal medicine, tinctures, and so on. A whole lotta people believe that because herbs are natural they are also harmless. NOT TRUE. Herbs and other natural substances can cause every bit as much harm as taking drugs without regulating them. Many years ago I decided to try out some herbs for a physical problem I was having. So I did my research and came up with the combination of herbs I needed. Bought fresh herbs at my local CoOp. Brought them home and made a tincture out of them. Used the tincture - and the next thing I knew I was experiencing what felt like an acid trip (and let's remember that lysergic acid diethylamide, better known as LSD-25 is a natural substance)...as is Psilocybin, etc., etc.). I was on the floor, laughing and crying absolutely out of control. It was TERRIFYING. Right then i learned about the potential power of herbal medicine. It was hours before I came down from the self-induced, perfectly natural, 100% legal trip. Scared the ***** outta me.

And THAT is why anyone who wishes to try integral and holistic health care must have an experienced and gifted professional to work with. Which is COSTLY. MOST (not all) people with severe mental illness don't have the kind of fluid finances that allow us to afford the list of alternative medical practitioners required to manage our mental health.

For the absolute BEST website online to learn about non-traditional (and in using that term, I mean non-contemporary western) medicine go to Erowid. You will most likely find just about everything you need to know about herbs, plants, etc. you can possibly learn about on that site.

btw, it is ESSENTIAL when using herbal medicine to work ONLY with fresh herbs and plants. Older plants won't have the effectiveness that fresh ones do. Finding a source for fresh herbs, plants, etc. is very, very difficult as most of the stuff sold in your local health food store has been sitting around for a while. Again, just as pharmacies dispense meds, so do natural health practitioners have sources for the freshest and healthiest herbs and plants. As for essential oils - after a few days essential oils become rancid. Most of us are used to smelling essential oils in our local health food store and don't even realize that we are sniffing rancid oil. Also, the source MUST be considered. Plenty of place sell sandalwood oil, but know what? REAL sandalwood is extremely expensive, and the real stuff is rarely found in the U.S.

Unfortunately, this thread has gone off course and topic too many times to clean/edit it.

live2ski, would you be so kind as to post in Other Treatments Forum to ask members the questions of their other treatments? I think you ask good questions and I don't want to see your thread get further derailed here.

I would also like to remind all of you that when answering a thread such as this one, there are going to be so many different personal experiences and beliefs and not everyone is going to agree or even understand some of them. That's okay....really it is. What isn't okay is to call members out by making personal comments that are considered unsupportive and completely off topic. If you can't be respectful, just don't post anything. Walk away from the thread, go to another thread, take a walk, take a bath or shower, grab a bite to eat and drink and relax. Unsupportive posting to one another just is not cool.

At this time, this thread is being closed.