[Altered Moment]

Does anyone have experience with amphetamines being prescribed solely for the treatment of depression?

In my opinion it would be unethical but apparently it is done in some cases. I would be a good candidate as I have very refactory or treatment resistant depression. A part of me would love to take amphetamines for depression. I know it would lift it in a heart beat.

I however have a history of meth amphetamine addiction. I spent three weeks in the psych ward and a year in serious psychosis due to amphetamine induced post acute withdrawal syndrome. It messed up my brain chemistry very badly. Because of this I would never take them even if prescribed. I seriously doubt I could find a doctor who would prescribe them just for depression. I have never heard of a case where it is done.

I realize it is widely prescribed for ADD/ADHD and is very effective. It has the opposite effect in those cases. I am talking about strictly use for depression.

[Altered Moment]

Psychostimulants in the therapy of treatment-resistant depression Review of the literature and findings from a retrospective study in 65 depressed patients

My pdoc considered that as an option at one point as I was not responding well to AD's and mood stabilizers alone. It was not something he considered lightly nor is it something he would do often, but it was something we talked about. I chose not to go that route myself.

[elevatedsoul]

is wellbutrin a psychostimulant?

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by elevatedsoul

is wellbutrin a psychostimulant?

No. I am talking about amphetamines. It is slightly similar chemically but it is not an amphetamine. It is an atypical antidepressant.

[melania]

I think it's a bad idea. Amphetamines don't help with depression, it gives energy and if you are depressed you can become agressive. It depends on your mood.
My friend was taking amphetamines and it ended with psychosis, she was sure that there are worms under her skin and was trying to kill them with sharp things. She was taken to psych ward and after this she still had paranoia and social phobia and even now she is not okay.

Depends on what my PA thinks I have . I avoid labels but I've been called ADHD along with every other name in the surrounding spectrum. I say depression for sure and then everything else is up for debate. I take adderall but it is a very low dose. It actually fits better because, as you may remember, I don't want to be dependent on these things for a lifetime if I can help it. Adderall has a much shorter half life then ADs. Years ago I took it at too high a dose (as prescribed) and people attributed my fast talking to being an north easterner and I lost 20 lbs. I thought it was great! But I'm not so naive anymore

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Altered Moment]

You may avoid labels and I understand that but labels are important. Or at least diagnosis are important. If you are not ADHD there is no reason for you to be taking Adderall.

I used to avoid labels too, but how can a pdoc know how to treat someone without a proper diagnosis (a label). How do I know how to treat myself without labels. I have a history of addiction (a label) and they know it, so it would not be a good idea to give me Adderall.

[Altered Moment]

I avoid labels but I've been called ADHD along with every other name in the surrounding spectrum. I say depression for sure and then everything else is up for debate. I take adderall but it is a very low dose.

I am rather surprised by this. Given all your past comments about transparency and research and meds I would think you would want to know exactly what your labels are.

I have more respect for "I don't know" then trying to bucket me. I don't even know what is me that is disordered and what it is about the culture that is disordered. The whole industry is geared towards identifying a "disease" and "fixing" it with medicine which doesn't do anything more than help your symptoms. I think it is much more transparent to acknowledge this and ask questions like how much of this is "irrational me" and how much is "irrational society". I suspect you'd find more of it is society than we are led to feel. Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean I am wrong

If I shouldn't be taking adderall if I am not ADHD why are you asking about its application for depression?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"I have a history of addiction (a label) and they know it, so it would not be a good idea to give me Adderall."

Is this a label or a characteristic? You are not an addiction. How different is that from not giving somebody peanuts due to an allergy? That person is not an allergy either

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Michanne

If I shouldn't be taking adderall if I am not ADHD why are you asking about its application for depression?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I personally don't think it should be prescribed for depression. It came up in another thread where someone was starting Adderall but the pdoc didn't really tell them why they were starting them on Adderall. Maybe the pdoc wanted to avoid labels. I thought that if the pdoc was going to prescribe adderall then they should at least give a diagnosis as to why.

To answer your question directly I was curious as to how common the practice was of prescribing amphetamines for depression.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Michanne

"I have a history of addiction (a label) and they know it, so it would not be a good idea to give me Adderall."

Is this a label or a characteristic? You are not an addiction. How different is that from not giving somebody peanuts due to an allergy? That person is not an allergy either
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I understand your point totally. I am not my addiction, I am not my depression. It would not be healthy for me to identify myself with my characteristics or my behaviours. Or identifying yourself with any disease for that matter.

I used to be very sensitive to labels for all those same reasons.

Nowadays it is just a matter of semantics to me. Disease, diagnosis, label. I don't define myself by these any more.

My point is don't you want to have the most accurate diagnosis possible to make informed decisions. I understand that with mental health diagnosis it is as much an art as it is a science and can get very blurred.

When I first started in treatment I did not care how they diagnosed me because it seemed to me all the treatments and meds were all the same no matter what the diagnosis. That was 20 years ago. It probably wasn't totally true then but I certainly don't think it is true today. Your treatment should be tailored to your diagnosis(s). In fact I almost accepted a diagnosis of BPD just to get into a certain treatment group that was new and cutting edge at the time. When they told me it would be permanent record in my charts I decided against it.

It is much more black and white in regular medicine. You have type II diabetes so we are going to treat you in such and such a way. Drugs, diet and exercise. You have hypothyroidism we are going to give you synthroid.

Oh I see. I read it the first time but that was a whole 24 hours ago and a lot has changed since then in my case it had to do with cognitive deterioration and the fact that I was sleeping ALLL the time. When I started we did not know if I was ready to come off the Zoloft but were pretty sure. I do know the Zoloft made me tired. I also know the depression made me tired but I don't know what was the bigger factor last year. The adderall may have given me a kick out of my depression.

One thing to note... When I was on a higher dose of Zoloft without adderall I could not pass a technical interview to save my life. This has never been an issue. With adderall and reduced Zoloft I got two offers on the same day. I don't need adderall to do my job. I haven't taken it for years and I have done just fine thank you very much. So in this case you could think it could be helpful for depression. The thing is whether you are going to think of it as some sort of lifelong treatment or a "boost". As a lifelong treatment it seems a little dubious to me. But as a boost there are worse assuming you don't have a tendency towards addition. The "damage" is infinitely less compared to other meds you could take. As with any "boost" you can't just rely on the thing giving you the boost. You have to do your own work too.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I understand your point totally. I am not my addiction, I am not my depression. It would not be healthy for me to identify myself with my characteristics or my behaviours. Or identifying yourself with any disease for that matter.


I used to be very sensitive to labels for all those same reasons.


Nowadays it is just a matter of semantics to me. Disease, diagnosis, label. I don't define myself by these any more.


My point is don't you want to have the most accurate diagnosis possible to make informed decisions. I understand that with mental health diagnosis it is as much an art as it is a science and can get very blurred.


When I first started in treatment I did not care how they diagnosed me because it seemed to me all the treatments and meds were all the same no matter what the diagnosis. That was 20 years ago. It probably wasn't totally true then but I certainly don't think it is true today. Your treatment should be tailored to your diagnosis(s). In fact I almost accepted a diagnosis of BPD just to get into a certain treatment group that was new and cutting edge at the time. When they told me it would be permanent record in my charts I decided against it.


It is much more black and white in regular medicine. You have type II diabetes so we are going to treat you in such and such a way. Drugs, diet and exercise. You have hypothyroidism we are going to give you synthroid.

It isn't an issue if not asking for the purpose of not knowing. It is an issue that they don't really know so just acknowledging it. The whole industry is ambiguous. A lot of doctors only give a dx for insurance purposes. To your point... It is on your record for life. In the case of bipolar it is a particular problem if you are incorrectly diagnosed. This is another reason to be a partner in your own treatment. I mean, if the only treatment is for symptoms why would you not treat based on symptoms? You can have bipolar people that dip to the depressive side and ones that swing to the manic side. The dx bipolar alone isn't going to help you very much. And let's not even get into the quadruple dx's!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[venusss]

I heard the stims work wonderfully for depression and that not just from people who are normally kinda pro-med, but also on Icarus forum of all the places (I think if Icarus people are excited about some drug than must be good... but then again, Icarus doesn't reject mind altering stuff per se, they rather have problem with it being pushed on people as cure).

I never taken pharma stimulants and I kinda don't wanna go that way, having addictive persnality. But I know guarana (a natural stimulant) lifts up my depression when I take it (it has all the side effects of stimulants as anxiety and insomnia though and I did sorta abuse it in the past, so I try not to reach for it too much).

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Michanne

The whole industry is geared towards identifying a "disease" and "fixing" it with medicine which doesn't do anything more than help your symptoms. I think it is much more transparent to acknowledge this and ask questions like how much of this is "irrational me" and how much is "irrational society". I suspect you'd find more of it is society than we are led to feel. Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean I am wrong

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't think I agree with you here. Of course as humans we are wired to identify problems and fix them. I think medical science has done much more than just treat symptoms. There are many examples of cures in medical science. My father had a triple bypass. He would have died without it most likely. They identified a problem and went in and fixed it. They did much much more than treat symptoms. That was 20 years ago and he has lead a healthy long life and is still going strong.

One of my best friends was just successfully treated for throat cancer. So far he is cancer free. That doesn't mean it might not come back but he has a good chance to see his grand kids grow up.

Now if you are strictly talking about mental health then I would have to agree with you. They have not made much more progress than to treat symptoms. For me not even that successfully. Many people who take meds would probably strongly disagree though and say they were cured by meds.

I don't know how much hope but I do hold out some hope for "cures" for mental illness in the future. Who would have thought 30 years ago that you would be tapa talking to me about this.

I am talking specifically about the MH field. It's the only one without any cures and probably the most profitable for medication. If you are taking medication for life you are not "cured". A diabetic taking insulin is not "cured" either.

I think "cures" will only start when we start recognizing it as part culture. Anthropologists can tell you other cultures don't see various illnesses as illnesses. The culture defines what is a disease. That is not saying there aren't people that aren't sick in any culture. It is a spectrum so a severely depressed or autistic person is ill in every culture. You can not draw that line if you don't acknowledge what is really happening.

In fact I shared this with a cube neighbor just yesterday:

According to the doctor regarding the disease Drapetomania:

The cause in the most of cases, that induces the negro to run away from service, is as much a disease of the mind as any other species of mental alienation, and much more curable, as a general rule. With the advantages of proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many negroes have of running away, can be almost entirely prevented, although the slaves be located on the borders of a free state, within a stone’s throw of the abolitionists.

The author makes a very important point at the end:

Even at the time, Dr Cartwright’s proposed mental disorder was thoroughly mocked. What an utterly ridiculous suggestion that this was some sort of mental illness. Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a mental illness that causes children to get angry and refuse to do what they’re told. It is treated by sending the parents to parenting classes.

http://theworldofmentalists.com/2013...s-to-run-away/



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I heard the stims work wonderfully for depression and that not just from people who are normally kinda pro-med, but also on Icarus forum of all the places (I think if Icarus people are excited about some drug than must be good... but then again, Icarus doesn't reject mind altering stuff per se, they rather have problem with it being pushed on people as cure).

I never taken pharma stimulants and I kinda don't wanna go that way, having addictive persnality. But I know guarana (a natural stimulant) lifts up my depression when I take it (it has all the side effects of stimulants as anxiety and insomnia though and I did sorta abuse it in the past, so I try not to reach for it too much).

I haven't read it but I bet they are thinking the same thing... It has less of a permanent footprint then antidepressants and you can actually tell pretty quickly if it is going to work.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Altered Moment]

I think "cures" will only start when we start recognizing it as part culture. Anthropologists can tell you other cultures don't see various illnesses as illnesses. The culture defines what is a disease. That is not saying there aren't people that aren't sick in any culture. It is a spectrum so a severely depressed or autistic person is ill in every culture. You can not draw that line if you don't acknowledge what is really happening.

Well I will have to agree with you there. Our culture does not accept, embrace, and honor suffering and illness as it should.

It is a natural human reaction to want to fix things when they see that something is wrong. Defining wrong in the human condition is not simple and straight forward as it is in an engineering problem. It is like my friend who offers all kinds of solutions to fix my depression when what I need is for them to accept me as I am depression and all.

I learned along time ago in Alanon is that we have this tendency to "fix" people. It is often out of a selfish need and has nothing to do with helping the other person. The best way to help is to listen, to validate, to relate to, to share your own experience and to not give unsolicited advice. People want to be accepted and validated not "fixed". But then we do want to be helped and "cured" ourselves. So the key is to seek out the healthiest people and healthiest ways to be helped. Maybe not cured. I have no doubt I will never be cured. That I have to learn to live with and manage my disease and accept it. It may however be different for my daughter who knows.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I heard the stims work wonderfully for depression and that not just from people who are normally kinda pro-med, but also on Icarus forum of all the places (I think if Icarus people are excited about some drug than must be good... but then again, Icarus doesn't reject mind altering stuff per se, they rather have problem with it being pushed on people as cure).

I never taken pharma stimulants and I kinda don't wanna go that way, having addictive persnality. But I know guarana (a natural stimulant) lifts up my depression when I take it (it has all the side effects of stimulants as anxiety and insomnia though and I did sorta abuse it in the past, so I try not to reach for it too much).

Oh I have no doubt that they work and that they work very quickly. I know from personal experience. Part of the problem is the short half life. You have to keep taking more and more. I am admittedly biased in this area because of my own experience with meth amphetamines.

My concern is not whether they work or not but whether the side effects risk are worth it. Psychosis being number one.

But I know guarana (a natural stimulant) lifts up my depression when I take it (it has all the side effects of stimulants as anxiety and insomnia though and I did sorta abuse it in the past, so I try not to reach for it too much).

Like you say just because it is natural or an herb does not mean much. It can be just as dangerous. You can also take ephedra (an herb) and see how that goes. I took that once after having been clean and sober for many years and I thought I had just done a line of meth.

[LaborIntensive]

My experience with Adderall.

I was seeing the same MD for over a year and one day she asked if at anytime I had been diagnosed with a mental disorder. This was due to my ways of explaining my medical issues and how they made me feel as well as my loss of attention getting worse. At first she gave me a 30 day at 60mg a pill. It was too much and I could not sleep well at night so we dialed it way down to 25mg a pill.

Life got great. I was able to stay focused at work, slowly I was able to stop myself from impulse eating/ binge eating and being so lazy. Whenever I got home from work I no longer would find reasons to sit around but instead I would go right to the gym and dam the crowds and traffic I went cause I knew I needed to. I was for once in my life "in control" and much more fearless.

Then the company began to fire everyone slowly. I started to go into a spiral of depression as the work vanished and I had less and less to do and finally it was just 3 employees left down from the original 20!

After that I was out of work and at home, bored and sending out resumes to the tune of 10-20 a day. By the 3rd month I was freaking out and popping my pills at night and going from bedtime at 10pm to bedtime at 4-5am. I would then become a night person and sleep during the day. I can say that a certain psychosis developed and I became more paranoid and restless. I kept seeking communication with others and venting about my circumstances with strangers and often!

I stopped after that so my soul could steady itself and I could see if possibly I didn't need them. It's been over 7 years now since then and although mainly Ihave not needed them due to the less demanding work I had been doing but also since I have been out of work it doesn't matter what I do or think (I think).

Well, that's my experience anyway.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Michanne

To your point... It is on your record for life. In the case of bipolar it is a particular problem if you are incorrectly diagnosed. This is another reason to be a partner in your own treatment. I mean, if the only treatment is for symptoms why would you not treat based on symptoms? You can have bipolar people that dip to the depressive side and ones that swing to the manic side. The dx bipolar alone isn't going to help you very much. And let's not even get into the quadruple dx's!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well you have a good point there. Diagnosis can be very ambiguous. Personally if my pdoc thought I was ADHD and wanted to put me on Adderall I would want them to tell me they think I am ADHD. If they are not sure and want to experiment then tell me they suspect I may be ADHD but are not sure. That was my main point in the other thread where that person did not get that conversation. They got the conversation about treating symptoms. That would not be good enough for me. It does not have to be charted and made a part of the record just a conversation.

Just to be clear I do not have a diagnosis of BPD in my record. I was considering letting them give me that diagnosis for the sole purpose of getting into a special new treatment group. My therapist thought I would benefit but I would have to have that diagnosis in my record so I declined.

I was however misdiagnosed with bipolar for about seven years. That is certainly in my record. The misdiagnosis came from the amphetamine induced post acute withdrawal syndrome. The psychosis lasted over a year. They didn't know as much about PAWS then and because it lasted so long they figured I had to be bipolar. After all I had a full blown manic episode that lasted over a year. All the symptoms matched bipolar. It was actually the amphetamine withdrawal the whole time.

Amphetamines are powerful drugs and can cause severe psychosis and this is why I started the thread. For ADHD/ADD they can be wonder drugs. Although many kids sell them to their friends. And many people abuse them. It is just my opinion that they should not be prescribed lightly and a lot of warning and monitoring should be done when prescribed.

The same can be said for benzos and we all know the debates around those. I told my pdoc that I thought it was unethical for him not to give me benzos since they were the only thing that would work. Despite my history of addiction. He gave me klonopin. .5 mg in the morning and .5 mg at night. I don't take any more than that. So maybe i am being hypocritical. I have no history of benzo addiction but I do with amphetamines so I am very sensitive to the amphetamine issue. They should both be prescribed with a great deal of care. If I take more klonopin then I should I will be SOL because they won't refill it until the day it is supposed to run out so that keeps me honest.

I've never had any issues with escalating doses. I played with some in HS and never had trouble there either. Everyone is different

I knew you were dx bp. That's a good example because I think it is a dumping ground for so many things. Way over dx'd. That makes it even more troubling that is something that is so hard to get rid of and can be a strain economically. Pre aca how many people sunk income wise because they couldn't get insurance? To add insult there is a lot of reason to think ads create bp more often then they will admit. They know it can cause it. They just aren't willing to study it. I'll get off my stump now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Altered Moment]

Luckily it never effected my career or insurance. I am a journeyman/master plumber and in the construction trades they have never been that picky or done background checks or drug tests. That is changing. Most of them do drug testing now. And who knows what may turn up on a background check. I have seen and read stories about the things data miners are coming up with on individuals. Things they should never have access to yet they are coming up with it including mental health issues addiction issues. I opened a thread about it here in the tech section but it got shut down pretty quick.

Speaking of AD's and BP my Fetzima is kicking in and my depression is lifting, thank god, but I was pretty manic today. I usually get a little manic for awhile when coming out of one. They can trigger mania. I don't know if they cause bp or just trigger mania in those who are already bp.