Started the celexa for real...

The passages in quotes are actually not my voice. The links are below each one.

NAMI got over 50% of its funding from big pharma in 2009. There are individuals that support alternative treatment but the overall policy is for forced treatment and drugs. You won't get a lot of support for anything alternative there. The pharma connection is a conflict of interest. I would not their lobby.

I recommend Thomas Armstrong and Robert Whitaker for information on a mindset change. Whitaker and mad in America support a discussion about changing the industry. Armstrong writes about neurodiversity. I get the impression you would not read these books and this really isn't a good place to try and educate.

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Well I guess i was commenting on others you quoted. I really don't know anything about NAMI I just used it as an example. I somehow get emails from them. My point was we need a lobby too. A strong one like cancer and AARP and we need foundations and all of that. I remember as a kid my Mom being involved in the Kidney foundation and March of Dimes.

I don't know how you got that idea about me. I don't know how Whitaker and Armstrong want to changed the industry. You have not really elaborated on what you mean by change in mindset. I have not read the books so I can't comment. Doesn't mean I am not willing to read them. You challenged me to read Whitaker but I didn't run out and read it yesterday. I have stated many times I am very much in favor of alternative treatments.....whatever works. If it shows promise study it. And why do you think it is not a good place to educate? Just because I like to debate with you or take a contrarian view does not mean I have not been educated by these debates. I didn't know anything about NAMI, I just threw it out there. You just educated me a little about NAMI. I am totally against forced treatment. Maybe in extreme cases. I don't really know that debate.

There are 100's and hundreds of people who view these forums who are not even members. How do you know they are not being educated? I got the feeling there was a whole lot we agreed on. How many times do I have to say I believe in studying herbs if they show potential to be beneficial or that I believe in meditation and have practiced it for twenty years and believe it changes biology. That CBT changes biology. Diet changes biology, exercise changes biology. Have I not mentioned many times all the the work I have done and things I have tried besides meds. It is just in my case they have not had a big impact on my biology as far as depression goes. But I never said they were not beneficial.

Why would you think me or people around here would not be educated if you presented your ideas about what you think or what evidence shows would be beneficial to us. No matter what it is. It seems to me you have been rather vague about what alternatives you would advocate as beneficial or what type of mindset change you think would be beneficial. You say just read Whitaker. Well people are not going to just run out and read it. Sorry, that is just the way it is. You seem more focused on what is wrong rather than on solutions. Tell us what your solutions are. I have only been around a short time and obviously have not read all your posts so I am probably way off base. You have mentioned aveurdic, neurodiversity, and change in mind set. Many people don't even know what those are and I am still not sure by what you mean by change in mind set. You can always post in the Other Treatments section. I go to that section all the time. This is the psyche med section.

I am reading "Noon Day Demon" by Andrew Solomon and I can't read two big non fiction books at once. I might decide to read a book on neuro chemistry or physics next so no guaranties I will read Whitaker. I will go to his website (i did once already) and to mad in america and check it out. My biggest interests have always been bio chem, neuroscience, physics, and philosophy so that is most likely what I will read. Doesn't mean I won't listen to what you have learned from your readings. Maybe i will agree with it maybe I won't.

Side note - I just read this in noon day demon.
As Steven Hyman, director of NIMH, said rather dryly "There's too much serotonin soup and not enough neuroscience. We are not organizing Serotonin Appreciation Day just yet." The current popular focus on serotonin is at best naive.

I am sure we would both agree with that. I don't think there are many experts that are clinging to the chemical imbalance theory. The know neuro transmitters are involved but it is a big black box. There are all kinds of theories about why SSRI's and SSNRI's work and why they are slow acting and why they don't work in some. The extra serotonin or nor epinephrine or dopamine in the pre synaptic cleft is just a little glimpse of what is going on and how receptors adapt and take over other functions and so on. Very little is known about cause and treatment. NIMH needs more money and we need an effective lobby.

Andrew Solomon has his own experience to draw on and lots of interviews with depressed people and lots of interviews with experts. Somehow because of his position he had access to a lot of people.

If you read some of my other long winded post I have mentioned those guys before and what they are about. I was up until 3 am last night taking pictures of the moon so needless to say I don't have a lot of energy today. The books are dense. Whenever I try to go into it I get all sorts of criticism without any listening at all. Sometimes people get hostile. I've grown weary of it so when I am tired it is too much to explain. You can some of read Whitaker's stuff on mad in America. There used to be an article by Armstrong but sadly the mag got acquired and apparently the took it down. I have it stored in Evernote but I think I have to pm. I am too tired to do it right now. This thread is not about neurodiversity which is why I did not want to go down that route. I suspect you can find a definition and the 8 components online. Idk.

I also posted a thread about open source in the "other" section. That is a big solution right there.

Sampling of patient advocacy groups and links.
http://cepuk.org/
http://www.ncmhr.org/
http://www.madinamerica.com/resources/#links
http://www.madnessradio.net/about-madness-radio

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I took a quick look at mad in america and Robert Whitaker. I only read the "about the book" page. I will post it here and people can decide if the agree with what it is implying. I have not read the book or his sources or studies or references, but on the face of it he seems to be implying that there is an epidemic of mental illness ever since thorazine was invented. When Prozac came out the number of diagnosis soared. And you can read it your self and see if you see what it is implying. It seems to me he is implying that the huge increase in people with mental illness and on disablity has been caused by the drugs themselves. That psyche meds have been over all harmful and not helpful.

I asked my Mom who has been in the mental health field since the sixties what could have possibly caused this huge increase in diagnosis and disability. I wanted her view on the increase based on her experience. This is what she said.....

First of all when they closed all the state hospitals, and she was around to see it, those people went on disability because the state was no longer housing them. The vast majority of people in those hospitals were schizophrenic and bi polar untreated. Some were older and had dementia before the word Alzheimers even existed. They were mainly institutionalized because they were deemed unable to be in society. To out of control. The state hospitals were closed primarily because of meds and these people became stabilized on meds and were able to live on their own in society and also it was viewed that they were getting treated inhumanely. There were very few in them with depression and anxiety so those people would not have been counted in his numbers. The number he uses is just those in state and county hospitals so does not include all the people out there with less severe undiagnosed problems.

Second and biggest reason she says is that there has been a huge increase in the number of different diagnosis in the DSM. PTSD, anorexia, bulimia, and many others were not even words in 1955. The huge increase in diagnosis in the DSM has lead to a much larger number of people being diagnosed with these different diseases/ disorders/ phobias etc.

And perhaps a factor just as big as the DSM is the amount of awareness, understanding, and less stigma that there is today compared to 1955. Many many more people will seek out help today if they think they have depression or anxiety or any other number of things. In the fifties when my great grandfather got severely depressed he lived with my mom and my grandparents. He stayed in his room for his last seven years. He was never diagnosed and treated. That is how it was for millions of people back then.

So my mother who is a social worker in the mental health field her whole life and always comes at things from a psychological point of view thinks the above. And on meds she thinks that they are the only thing that has allowed so many people to live on their own and take care of themselves even though on disability. She has dealt with very many on and off meds. She used to work at an AIS home. So her view is that meds have been hugely beneficial to the mental health community. One persons experience but she has much professional experience and much personal experience with her family.

Now if someone wants to argue that meds have caused this huge epidemic. Go ahead make your case. I have not read the book so I don't know what the conclusions are, I am just going on what it says below.

Anatomy of an Epidemic | Mad In America

I am totally for that but don't know how it would get implemented. I did suggest source forge as a possible place for someone to take it up. It could possibly be implemented by this site. I am not sure what your goals are with it or what types of information.

I also only have so much time and energy to research mad in america and really look at what Whitaker has to say in depth. And i have a lot of interests. And i am feeling better and need to get on with other things. So I understand. But if you believe something is true and needs to be changed you should still fight for it even if you are criticized. Maybe you will change some views or maybe your views will be changed or maybe both.

I admit I have a lot of time and energy recently to debate and post on here but that is about to change.

You said I didn't have any solutions. That is one. It doesn't matter if it is complete or not. I put it out there for discussion. That is how they start. I do not envision it being at all successful here but the idea is there so anybody can make up their own mind.

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Jacket covers are intended to peak your interest. You wouldn't hire somebody based solely on a resume. He actually opens the book with the the intent to open a discussion... Not knowing himself where it would go. And in fact it has morphed since 2010. I took what was important to me and that was the parts about marketing and perception. That's why I talk about the two together. DSM has changed how we view diagnosis. Basically the order for most (not all) is 1. Definition 2. Society recognition and reaction. 3. Medication. Iow, would ADHD be medicated or should education style have changed as a first line? Is that appropriate I ask? The terrible twos now have a diagnosis. I have posted a link to a compilation of Thorazine ads and how they portray MI. I am not going to look for it again but the MI are portrayed as a beast to be controlled at one point. You could take the copy off and make it an ad for walking dead. That's Whitaker. I ask again and again... Who is disordered? The patient or society? We have all sorts of morays that determine who is and what is ill. Other cultures have a different idea. Depression is seen as a reality check in other cultures not to be medicated into submission. You have noticed having more energy coming out of a depression. Many people, including myself, experience the same thing. What pdoc talks about that? What if you were to change your perception of what that means? I think your medication clouds what it could mean. Neither dis all use of meds or the fact that there are people where that is the best solution we have. There will always be people at the extreme parts of the spectrum. But that is not the only group on medication. They admit to not knowing all the consequences of long term use of meds. There is a good chance ADs beget the need for ADs. Talk about depressing. We need a culture that is more empathetic towards people who don't fit what ideal "normal" is. Autism in Silicon Valley is exceptionally high. I don't think this is a coincidence. These people push the limits of technology. They are valuable to society because of those characteristics. Not people to be dis'd. I think this thread has gone way off topic which is why I resisted going into this earlier. I have not even covered a fraction.

My opinion.



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It went off topic a long time ago. I know very little about ADD ADHD Autism Asperbergers and so on. I don't know what is best for those kids. Parents, teachers, psychologists grapple with those issues everyday. I had one friend in elementary who at the time was labeled hyperactive. In those days the terms ADD and ADHD were not even around. He did fairly good being "main streamed" (before that term even existed). He was often very disruptive though and would run out of the class room and run around the play ground or get agitated and throw things around in class. The teacher had no clue how to deal with him other than to try to discipline him. That was not very effective. His parents had a really hard time dealing with him. As he got older it got worse. I am not sure what ever happened to him or how he is doing today. Would he have been better off on Ritalin....I think so.

I agree as a society in general we are way over diagnosed and over medicated. And there is a huge spectrum in all these diagnosis. Parents and us as adults have to make decisions and they are tough. No one forced me on meds. In fact I had to fight to get in to see a pdoc.

By force I have had to accept, embrace, manage, learn to live with, my depression. Even find meaning and purpose in it. Same with addiction. I could easily argue that I was very fortunate to be and addict because of the huge amount of growth I got out of recovery. "The Road Less Traveled" by Scott Peck. I highly recommend it. Standard reading in recovery circles.

If you gave me a choice when I was twelve years old between this life and some other ideal life what would I choose. At twelve I know what I would choose, but in hind sight I am really not sure. I have had a lot of suffering. Maybe it has all been worth it. In many ways it has.

It is not just societies expectations. We inherently have a desire to be happy, to be content, to find a place socially. We are social animals and we naturally want to be normal. If you break your arm, you and those around you want to fix it. If your brain is broken, you and those around you naturally want to fix it.

In spite of any philosophic hind sight am I glad I am on a set of meds that is working so good....damn right I am. And I don't feel any numbing or stifling of creativity because of the meds coming out of this one.

Wow, talk about hijacked thread.

So disrepectful IMO.

Sorry.

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Sorry too.
Hellion was following along for most of it though.

Well it did have an effect on your mood. You said it got you wired like an amphetamine effect.

There are other AD's. And if not some people are going the supplement route. Check the other treatments section on SamE and L Methylfolate (Deplin) and others.

I suppose I don't really see that like a mood thing, perhaps though...not sure feeling stimulated is a mood though because I was not feeling any emotion attatched to it.

I suppose you have a point there. I guess I think of it as a mood but maybe it is not. Depends on exactly what all effects it is having on me.