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  #76  
Old May 12, 2014, 09:30 AM
Anonymous817219
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Originally Posted by zinco14532323 View Post
I think we agree. I don't think internal stress is the main factor either. I think mental illness and the effects it has on our lives creates an enormous amount or stress for many people. It is a byproduct of mental illness. That can have serious health implications. It is a side issue really.

I totally agree with you that the way we internalize the external is a huge factor in mental illness, especially at a young age and into the teens. And not just mental illness but low self worth, self loathing, anger issues, and all kinds of things we may not call mental illness. Probably the emotional disorders Sister Rags talks about. I would say parenting and immediate family is the biggest external factor. There are other cases such as rape or a soldier returning from a horrendous experience in war and have PTSD that causes depression and maybe alcohol and drug use. Those are solely external, not family, and very hard for people to deal with because they do tend to internalize them.

I will read your triggered philosophy when I have some more time. I expect we would disagree on how much influence societal and cultural pressures play a role. I think they do play a role but to what degree. I just have my experience that I want to share but it will be a long post.

I'm only being critical because I think you can handle it

I read Venus's post and I think you should approach it without expecting disagreement. I think that is part of the problem. I interpret a lot of what she says as similar to what I have been saying which is you don't have to settle for altering your mind to suit society. Yes, it is nearly impossible not to get some chemical help if you are involved with things like raising children, in this culture. However you aren't anymore. Right now you don't even have a job to worry about. You can look at that with expectations society places or as a blessing in disguise.

I am in no way suggesting you should stop taking meds or if that should be the goal. Not only is that your choice I think it would be risky even in with a conservative strategy. What I am saying is possibly taking some of Venus's example and "bending the spoon" in a way that helps release some of the stress instead of trying to meet expectations which is at least a huge cause of the stress. Yes, I realize you have given yourself permission to be depressed sometimes. That isn't what I mean. I'm talking about developing an environment around you. A paradigm shift. As a metaphor: if you are constantly tripping on the furniture stop trying to change your path and move the f'n furniture. If there isn't room get rid of it. Hope that makes sense.

Saturday I stopped Zoloft completely. I can feel it today. This time I am going to make every effort to suck it up instead of giving in.


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  #77  
Old May 12, 2014, 09:38 AM
Anonymous817219
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
I don't feel need to repeat it in every damn post. Especially, when I feel it's not relevant. Especially when I don't believe in DSM labels. But you could slap a list of DSM labels on me. My main issues would be bipolar, quite bad anxiety and some trauma issues (I REFUSE to call myself disordered for that).

Thank you I have a hard time with labels too. I feel like I also get a lot of flack for it. I have even been flat out accused of being in denial.

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  #78  
Old May 12, 2014, 09:52 AM
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"The most important thing is how do you treat it."

Before you can treat it you have to react to it. A lot of people should but choose not to assess the implications, meaning and responsibility to the self and others. They just follow doctor advice instead of listening to their own intuition. Where I disagree is the importance of why. Trigger or the lack of may be important but the rest seems more like an intellectual curiosity. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I just think there is too much importance placed on that.

My family has undiagnosed MDD and undiscussed bipolar or something like that (I can't be sure since nobody discusses it.) Are my troubles because of inherited genetics or behavior? I don't know and it doesn't really change my choice of treatment. If anything the acceptance of genetics is shifting control.

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  #79  
Old May 12, 2014, 10:19 AM
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I read Venus's post and I think you should approach it without expecting disagreement. I think that is part of the problem. I interpret a lot of what she says as similar to what I have been saying which is you don't have to settle for altering your mind to suit society. Yes, it is nearly impossible not to get some chemical help if you are involved with things like raising children, in this culture. However you aren't anymore. Right now you don't even have a job to worry about. You can look at that with expectations society places or as a blessing in disguise.

I am in no way suggesting you should stop taking meds or if that should be the goal. Not only is that your choice I think it would be risky even in with a conservative strategy. What I am saying is possibly taking some of Venus's example and "bending the spoon" in a way that helps release some of the stress instead of trying to meet expectations which is at least a huge cause of the stress. Yes, I realize you have given yourself permission to be depressed sometimes. That isn't what I mean. I'm talking about developing an environment around you. A paradigm shift. As a metaphor: if you are constantly tripping on the furniture stop trying to change your path and move the f'n furniture. If there isn't room get rid of it. Hope that makes sense.

Saturday I stopped Zoloft completely. I can feel it today. This time I am going to make every effort to suck it up instead of giving in.

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Damn it I need to go do something and I can't help but reply.
You are right I should not go into reading Venus's ideas expecting we will disagree.

I am very much going through the process you are speaking of. Many of the current struggles do come from societal expectations. You shouldn't be on Medicaid or social security you lazy bum you. You look fine to me and you say you can't work. I don't want to tell my friends I am on medicaid. Eventually I will work through this and tell them like it or not.

The bigger part of the problem though is values my parents instilled in me. In this case a very strong mid west work ethic, freedom, independence, self sufficiency, community involvement, charity, etc. These are things I conscientiously looked at and chose to adopt for myself. Some things I rejected. For example many of the teachings of the Catholic Church that I was raised in I rejected some I adopted. I did a lot of values clarification work to really figure out what values I freely chose to adopt and make my own no matter where they came from. Many I was born with. So I am mostly battling myself and my own expectations of myself and my own values. My illness is forcing me into a situation I would rather not be in and it creates conflict and stress.

I would rather be mentally healthy, working, contributing to society in other ways, having healthy relationships where my illness doesn't create an emotional and financial burden for others. But I am forced to face the reality of my situation and to process my way though it.

It has taken awhile to get here. A year and a half ago I could not even comprehend the possibility of applying for disability. Now to be perfectly honest I very much hope I win my case. It will simplify my life and reduce a huge amount of stress. I will still have to deal with societal views on being dependent on the state. I am not sure how I will deal with that, but that is the least of my problems. My problem is the fear of not winning the case and battling with my own expectations of myself. My pdoc has told me that I am going to have to learn to live within the bounds of my limitations. I would rather not have limitations but I do.

I don't need chemicals to deal with this kind of stress. As I have said I have been clean and sober for 19 years. I long ago quit using chemicals to deal with stress and cope with life. It didn't work out to well for me.

I need chemicals to treat my depression and anxiety which I consider a disease. If they work they allow me to deal with the every day stresses of life in a healthy way. Using chemicals to deal with stress to me is using the ones that act fast and bring immediate relief. I don't look at pysche meds in this way at all. I look at them as treatment for disease not some quick fix.

Good luck with the zoloft. I am assuming you tapered.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

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  #80  
Old May 12, 2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Michanne View Post
"The most important thing is how do you treat it."

Before you can treat it you have to react to it. A lot of people should but choose not to assess the implications, meaning and responsibility to the self and others. They just follow doctor advice instead of listening to their own intuition. Where I disagree is the importance of why. Trigger or the lack of may be important but the rest seems more like an intellectual curiosity. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I just think there is too much importance placed on that.

My family has undiagnosed MDD and undiscussed bipolar or something like that (I can't be sure since nobody discusses it.) Are my troubles because of inherited genetics or behavior? I don't know and it doesn't really change my choice of treatment. If anything the acceptance of genetics is shifting control.
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I agree that people should very carefully react to their initial acceptance of it and give much thought to the question of meds and forms of treatment. Many people do not have the capability to do this. They lack the awareness, education, and insight to deal with it in the way you or I would like them to. If someone is in a very deep depression and doesn't know much about the issues and they hopefully seek professional help, and they hopefully get good professional help, they are going to follow that advice because those people are the experts. For good or bad that is often the way it is. They just want to get out of it however.

I think root causes are very important to understand and not some intellectual curiosity. They are extremely important to how you approach treatment in my view. In how a therapist should choose to approach treatment. Even if they are genetic in origin. It makes a difference.

I have expressed my views on blame, fault, responsibility, and forgiveness in other sections. To me there are big differences. It is a way that I choose to look at things that works for me.

There is a saying in AA. "It don't matter how the donkey got in the ditch it just matters how are you going to get him out." Alot of validity to it. But I do think it matters how the donkey got in the ditch and later I will elaborate on it.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

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Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

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Fetzima 80mg
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  #81  
Old May 12, 2014, 10:48 AM
Anonymous817219
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But I see evidence you are still not moving the furniture . I am almost as old as you and I am so over the catholic recovery I almost took a job with a catholic not for profit. Until I found out they weren't as honorable as their mission statement that is. I feel like I missed a bullet.

Moving the furniture in this case means dealing with the shame. That's how I am dealing with it anyway. Friends should know about the depression because I will disappear at some point. Some are not supportive during those times which is a problem but maybe they have enough other assets. Others are dumped. This includes old and new. I scrutinize very carefully which is why I don't have a lot of acquaintances. I believe I have basically just been dumped by one friend who doesn't understand why having a group of friends is so hard for me. I can't control her attitude so I am moving on even though I know I recognize I will miss her. Don't want to see depression? Put me on "ignore". I am not at all insulted anymore.

Moving the furniture means deciding what friends offer enough value to imperfectly support you and which don't. It also means letting them know what they need to know and throwing it to the wind. I think the Medicaid issue is hard to avoid discussing and a lot of peoples ill think you are milking the system. You don't have control over that and they aren't good friends no matter how good they are at golf. It is way simpler to do once you have started with dealing with the shame. Shame is really what you are talking about when you talk about trying to reconcile catholic and family expectations. When I talk about shame I am not talking about guilt. I am using brene browns definition.

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  #82  
Old May 12, 2014, 11:37 AM
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venusss venusss is offline
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of course mental illness causes stress and anyone who claims it doesn't truly comprehend mental illness...or feelings...perhaps someone who claims that mental illness doesn't cause stress is a sociopath.
I missed this gem.

Oh my, so I am a sociopath. I will have to remember it next time I break into tear in foreign land "because horrible things happened here, boooooooo". I will have to remember it the next time I worry about my family, my friends, my cats and everything and everybody.

I would say somebody who doesn't try to understand a different point of view is either not very empathetic or they are the "MY MIND IS MADE UP, STOP BOTHERING ME WITH FACTS" type.


Quote:
Sister Rags: I posted the following: "I am generalizing for the sake of keeping this post from being annoying lengthy." By that I meant that I was trying to keep my post concise. I was not offering my opinion about the thread in general.
Lenght is not as annoying as cathegorizing people and coming to discussion with pre-concieved notions.
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Last edited by venusss; May 12, 2014 at 12:08 PM.
  #83  
Old May 12, 2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
I missed this gem.

Oh my, so I am a sociopath. I will have to remember it next time I break into tear in foreign land "because horrible things happened here, boooooooo". I will have to remember it the next time I worry about my family, my friends, my cats and everything and everybody.

I would say somebody who doesn't try to understand a different point of view is either not very empathetic or they are the "MY MIND IS MADE UP, STOP BOTHERING ME WITH FACTS" type.



Lenght is not as annoying as cathegorizing people and coming to discussion with pre-concieved notions.
That quote is somehow being mis attributed to me. At least on my computer. Both of those quotes are Sister Rags. I would appreciate at least changing manually who that top quot in attributed to. I never mentioned the word sociopath.

I think I am open minded. I said I thought I might disagree with you on some issues in the other post you pointed me to. Michanne pointed out I should not go into it thinking that way and I agreed with her. I will read it with an open mind. Please take my name off of that quote as I do not want to be associated with it.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

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Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #84  
Old May 12, 2014, 11:58 AM
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Severe Depresion (in many cases), Bi Polar I, and Schizophrenia I believe have huge genetic and biological components.
But the thing is... that everything involving humans is sort of... biological. My point is (and I don't think it comes out of being ignorant sociopath lol) that the biology doesn't exist alone.

I think current approach to MI overrelies on science. I think that the whole "looky! brain scan! we got proof!" hype might be simmilar to the hype about phrenology. The fact that number MIs rises isn't just because of better diagnosis and lesser stigma. The fact that despite of claims how scientists work on better drugs every day (not true. Pharma probably puts more in advertising these drugs than developing them) people are still miserable, many are unable to work and.... I just don't think the situation is improving for people with "soul disorders" (loosely translated Czech term for MI).
So wouldn't it be logical to look at other sides of the problem? For example, I am translatting material for a course taught on elementary school, it's called personal development. It teaches children to name emotions, stop and calm down, think of pro-social solutions to their problems. One of the main things there is "all emotions are okay, but not all behavior is". Why isn't this taught more? Why not teach some emotional first aid on schools? Imho, this would help people to grow stronger, be able to deal with their problems more efficiently.
Would it prevent people from developing depression or bipolar? Of course not, but it might make it more easier to live with the condition. When you learn this in therapy in adult life... you are just correcting the disastrous habits you might have formed.

So for me... the whole biological thing doesn't matter. We have been hearing about how close are we to the bipolar/schizo/whatever gene for decades. It seems it's a multitude of genes.... and so what if we discover it? Imho, nothing much would change.

Ad treatment... what I am trying to say is that you still have to deal with the external and suit it to fit you better. Kinda like we in west don't bond our feet so they are small and fit in them fancy shoes. We just buy larger shoes (only stupid celebrities actually sometimes have plastic surgery of feet to fit in their ugly Manolo Blahniks...). This goes back to California and meds... if a place is like a fancy shoe that pinches your foot... you don't suck it up, you don't cut of parts of your finger, you don't pop a painkiller. You get a better shoe... aka, find a better place for you to be. It's not as easy as buying new shoe, but it can be done and might be necessary for you to have a better life.
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  #85  
Old May 12, 2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Rags View Post
I posted the following: "I am generalizing for the sake of keeping this post from being annoying lengthy." By that I meant that I was trying to keep my post concise. I was not offering my opinion about the thread in general.

Movies are made about people like John Nash because their situation is extremely rare. When all is said and done, it's how we feel about ourselves in relation to our world that helps us decide what works for us and what does not.

zinco14532323, of course mental illness causes stress and anyone who claims it doesn't truly comprehend mental illness...or feelings...perhaps someone who claims that mental illness doesn't cause stress is a sociopath.
The statement was being addressed to me. I did not make it. The way it looks in your post is that I made it. Please remove my name from it.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #86  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by zinco14532323 View Post
That quote is somehow being mis attributed to me. At least on my computer. Both of those quotes are Sister Rags. I would appreciate at least changing manually who that top quot in attributed to. I never mentioned the word sociopath.

I think I am open minded. I said I thought I might disagree with you on some issues in the other post you pointed me to. Michanne pointed out I should not go into it thinking that way and I agreed with her. I will read it with an open mind. Please take my name off of that quote as I do not want to be associated with it.

done. i didn't realize i was multiquoting in one post.
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  #87  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:07 PM
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I need chemicals to treat my depression and anxiety which I consider a disease. If they work they allow me to deal with the every day stresses of life in a healthy way. Using chemicals to deal with stress to me is using the ones that act fast and bring immediate relief. I don't look at pysche meds in this way at all. I look at them as treatment for disease not some quick fix.
Bleh, I consider my herbs and essencies chemical help, eventhough I DO NOT used them to get high. My SJW makes me feel better, valerian makes me sleep and I use it when getting too manicky, but I don't see these as treating some disease/illness/defect. They just make me feel better, among with other things (I am big on aromatherapy... and I don't care for the science behind it. Certain smells calm me, some stimulate me....). To me it's the effect that matters. And if that makes me a meadow junkie (some friends laugh at that i will nom on any flower I see), then so it be.

Aka, I don't think I have some caffeine definciency. But still.... don't talk to me before I had my coffee.
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  #88  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Michanne View Post
But I see evidence you are still not moving the furniture . I am almost as old as you and I am so over the catholic recovery I almost took a job with a catholic not for profit. Until I found out they weren't as honorable as their mission statement that is. I feel like I missed a bullet.

Moving the furniture in this case means dealing with the shame. That's how I am dealing with it anyway. Friends should know about the depression because I will disappear at some point. Some are not supportive during those times which is a problem but maybe they have enough other assets. Others are dumped. This includes old and new. I scrutinize very carefully which is why I don't have a lot of acquaintances. I believe I have basically just been dumped by one friend who doesn't understand why having a group of friends is so hard for me. I can't control her attitude so I am moving on even though I know I recognize I will miss her. Don't want to see depression? Put me on "ignore". I am not at all insulted anymore.

Moving the furniture means deciding what friends offer enough value to imperfectly support you and which don't. It also means letting them know what they need to know and throwing it to the wind. I think the Medicaid issue is hard to avoid discussing and a lot of peoples ill think you are milking the system. You don't have control over that and they aren't good friends no matter how good they are at golf. It is way simpler to do once you have started with dealing with the shame. Shame is really what you are talking about when you talk about trying to reconcile catholic and family expectations. When I talk about shame I am not talking about guilt. I am using brene browns definition.

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Plumbing fixed. Easy peasy when your a master.

I was very shame based at one time. Yes different from guilt, much different. I have been working on it for decades. Catholic shame and recovery I got over decades ago. That was just an example of the process I went through clarifying my own values. Which ones I have chosen to adopt. I don't consider myself shame based at all anymore. Although I do have to deal with shame.

The current process that does involve shame started a year and a half ago when it was first suggested I apply for disability. A lot of that shame comes from societal views no doubt. A lot of it comes from my own internal beliefs. I have never in my life even considered the possibility of being on medicaid and disability. Moving furniture is a process not an event. The furniture is being moved but rather slowly in stages. I have never lost friends due to depression. No one has ever dumped me because of it and I have not dumped them because they have a total lack of understanding of it. I have both types. The depression itself I have no shame over any more. Maybe when I am in a deep one with the negative intrusive thoughts sure. But I know that will run its course. Now that I am feeling good I am feeling shame or guilt or both and am minimizing the severity of what I have been through the past two years. Because I am feeling good I am having a hard time self validating what got me to where I am right now. "I should be working."

One friend I golfed with is a true blue friend for life. Very understanding and non judgmental and would be there for me for anything as I would for him. The other two I was worried what I would say if they asked. I have known them since I was a kid. Not a word was mentioned about any serious subject. We basically stayed in the moment and had a blast and joked around.

So not depression itself but the medicaid disability thing caused by the depression is the current shame I am dealing with. This is totally in my face new to me. I don't really know yet how it will play out as far as friends are concerned. All the current friends I have that know have been supportive and non judgmental. That would include 7 people outside of family. As far as old friends I have not been in contact with or new friends, I will deal with each bridge as I cross it the best I can. The reality is that in the small town I live in my whole life story will be public record before to long. A lot of it already is. I will have to learn to face the community without shame regardless of what anyone is whispering under their breath.

Strictly depression I will argue until I am blue in the face with people to try to get them to understand. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I don't want to bother. I have never dumped or been dumped over it. No shame at all in that department.

It is a process not an event.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #89  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:35 PM
Anonymous817219
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"Strictly depression I will argue until I am blue in the face with people to try to get them to understand. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I don't want to bother. I have never dumped or been dumped over it. No shame at all in that department."

I'm thinking you are trying to convince rather than argue. Arguing by definition can't really end in understanding. At best agreement just to shut you up. You'd loose friends left and right. I know that isn't what you meant but let's not add fuel to the fire.

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  #90  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
done. i didn't realize i was multiquoting in one post.
Thank you for that.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #91  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
Bleh, I consider my herbs and essencies chemical help, eventhough I DO NOT used them to get high. My SJW makes me feel better, valerian makes me sleep and I use it when getting too manicky, but I don't see these as treating some disease/illness/defect. They just make me feel better, among with other things (I am big on aromatherapy... and I don't care for the science behind it. Certain smells calm me, some stimulate me....). To me it's the effect that matters. And if that makes me a meadow junkie (some friends laugh at that i will nom on any flower I see), then so it be.

Aka, I don't think I have some caffeine definciency. But still.... don't talk to me before I had my coffee.
I sleep in a bedroom of lavender aroma , but im afraid bipolar is not something that can be cured , without meds you are lost in madness . lots have tried even STEVEN FRY has given up to meds, to many suicide attempts happen and one day you may get lucky.
  #92  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:51 PM
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Meds don't cure it either, though. They just treat the symptoms, in a similar way herbs do (although herbs are admitively milder).

and as for killing myself...... we all are going to die. I am not gonna obsess about how will I go... I mean more than I already do. My spirituality is actually keeping me alive in this aspect.
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  #93  
Old May 12, 2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Michanne View Post
"Strictly depression I will argue until I am blue in the face with people to try to get them to understand. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I don't want to bother. I have never dumped or been dumped over it. No shame at all in that department."

I'm thinking you are trying to convince rather than argue. Arguing by definition can't really end in understanding. At best agreement just to shut you up. You'd loose friends left and right. I know that isn't what you meant but let's not add fuel to the fire.

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Maybe arguing isn't the right word. Part of it comes from seeking validation and may not be that healthy for me. I have one friend in CA who had absolutely no understanding of it. I have been discussing the matter with him for years. In the last year he really has become more understanding. At the end of the day neither one of us has even considered it effecting our friendship. Another friend in CA who suffers from severe anxiety doesn't understand depression at all but at least has something to compare it to. Both of them know everything about me including medicaid and disability. Totally supportive. We all realize we are different and don't let it effect our friendship. Other friends I have here fully understand it because they have real life experience either themselves or with a child.

Actually a part of it is to increase overall understanding and reduce stigma. I can take it and it gives me some purpose. Once in awhile I will post something on facebook and let the comments fly. Not that often. I most definitely have increased overall understanding in my family and it has a ripple effect. Same with friends it has a ripple effect.
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The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #94  
Old May 12, 2014, 01:10 PM
sewerrats sewerrats is offline
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
Meds don't cure it either, though. They just treat the symptoms, in a similar way herbs do (although herbs are admitively milder).

and as for killing myself...... we all are going to die. I am not gonna obsess about how will I go... I mean more than I already do. My spirituality is actually keeping me alive in this aspect.
seriously what is your spirituality I an curious , because I believe in nothing no god or is it Santa load of crap to me . GENUINE IM CURIOUS BIPOLAR is incurable so why not treat the symptoms with meds to make a better life, my meds are not normal bipolar meds but works for me , the strenth of 6 mg of lorazapam is massive. not everyone would like to take it but it gives me life .:cool , I don't worry about sleep, I sleep when it comes I don't need 8 hours 2 3 5 all the same to me.
  #95  
Old May 12, 2014, 01:26 PM
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My spirituality is kinda mashup of the eastern religions (hinduism, buddhism) with dash of paganism and new age stuff.


and i think i explained many times why i don't take meds. too many reasons.
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Thanks for this!
sewerrats
  #96  
Old May 12, 2014, 01:32 PM
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Yes, I believe that if someone is truly mentally ill medication is a necessity in order to live a successful life, and to avoid hurting others in all the ways a non-medicated mentally ill person can hurt others. That's my story and I'm stickn' to it.

By the way - what, exactly, is the goal of this thread? Most of what I'm reading here are the right/wrong arguments, little or no consideration of others' experiences and opinions. Is a thread like this just a place to spend time bantering back and forth...I'm right, you're wrong, you don't know, I know better, and all kinds of defense-based misunderstandings....What's the purpose of all of this?

I'd like to share a very powerful thread I just read: http://forums.psychcentral.com/bipol...r-bipolar.html
  #97  
Old May 12, 2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by VenusHalley View Post
But the thing is... that everything involving humans is sort of... biological. My point is (and I don't think it comes out of being ignorant sociopath lol) that the biology doesn't exist alone.

I think current approach to MI overrelies on science. I think that the whole "looky! brain scan! we got proof!" hype might be simmilar to the hype about phrenology. The fact that number MIs rises isn't just because of better diagnosis and lesser stigma. The fact that despite of claims how scientists work on better drugs every day (not true. Pharma probably puts more in advertising these drugs than developing them) people are still miserable, many are unable to work and.... I just don't think the situation is improving for people with "soul disorders" (loosely translated Czech term for MI).
So wouldn't it be logical to look at other sides of the problem? For example, I am translatting material for a course taught on elementary school, it's called personal development. It teaches children to name emotions, stop and calm down, think of pro-social solutions to their problems. One of the main things there is "all emotions are okay, but not all behavior is". Why isn't this taught more? Why not teach some emotional first aid on schools? Imho, this would help people to grow stronger, be able to deal with their problems more efficiently.
Would it prevent people from developing depression or bipolar? Of course not, but it might make it more easier to live with the condition. When you learn this in therapy in adult life... you are just correcting the disastrous habits you might have formed.

So for me... the whole biological thing doesn't matter. We have been hearing about how close are we to the bipolar/schizo/whatever gene for decades. It seems it's a multitude of genes.... and so what if we discover it? Imho, nothing much would change.

Ad treatment... what I am trying to say is that you still have to deal with the external and suit it to fit you better. Kinda like we in west don't bond our feet so they are small and fit in them fancy shoes. We just buy larger shoes (only stupid celebrities actually sometimes have plastic surgery of feet to fit in their ugly Manolo Blahniks...). This goes back to California and meds... if a place is like a fancy shoe that pinches your foot... you don't suck it up, you don't cut of parts of your finger, you don't pop a painkiller. You get a better shoe... aka, find a better place for you to be. It's not as easy as buying new shoe, but it can be done and might be necessary for you to have a better life.
I probably agree with everything you said. I dunno about the last paragraph I has to save that for my story on my experience of American culture.

Actually in the philosophy of AA addiction is a physical, emotional, and spirtual disease. All three have to be treated. Physical - abstinence, you stay sober. Emotional - Alot of the steps are designed for this. You deal with the wreckage or your past whether you caused it or someone else did. You deal with all your past unresolved issues, the catholic church, abuse, whatever you did, you resentments, the whole ball of wax. Steps 4 through 9. Once you have done that you continue to deal with current situations and choose better how to deal with them. We will not regret the past nor will we shut the door on it. We can learn from it. Spiritual - a spiritual malady, what you call soul disorder, this is the primary focus in continued growth and maintenance of your sobriety. Very powerful and effective. Proven to work. The thing is I applied all these principles to my depression over and over and it didn't work. I am a better person but it did not alleviate my depression. It did make it much easier to deal with.

It is because of this and all the other therapy and meditation and course in miracles and the books and work books and on and on. And the fact my depression has always been just as severe and has gotten worse that I think it is very hard wired into me genetically and biologically. I agree with you biology and environment do a dance every moment of the day.

So what difference does it make?

At this point in my life and in treatment it really doesn't matter how the donkey got in the ditch, it matters how I am going to get him out. Environmental roots causes I have dealt with. The only thing about the biological thing for me is that it would weigh into my decision whether to stay on meds or not. Given my experience I will stay on meds. It might me debatable whether someone with a large biological component is successfully treated with meds whether that is only symptoms, or a partial cure, or a full cure. I don't think current meds are close to saying cure or partial cure but they may some day. It is worth studying genes and biology in my view.

Why it mattered initially. As I said above I was very shamed based. If I was in a depression it was all my fault. Why couldn't I get my lazy *** up and do something. I shouldn't be missing work. I should be playing with my daughter. I should stop drinking. I should do this and I should do that. I was shoulding shitting all over myself. Tons of internal shame.

This is how I chose to look at it because of therapy and AA. I am not at fault or to blame for my alcoholism/addiction and my depression but I am responsible for it in every aspect. No one on earth is to blame or at fault for my alcoholism/addiction and depression. It is my job to forgive everyone and not to judge.

So seeing that I had a large family history on both sides for both things, looking at it as a disease and not my fault allowed me to dump a bunch of shame. It is not a cop out. I assume full responsibility for all my actions and for my treatment. I have to own it and take responsibility for it, all of it.

Why environmental core causes matter. Because this is going to determine what you really need to work on whether in AA or in therapy. A therapist should know your full history so you can both decide on the best approach. Given all my history and circumstances my therapist recommended a case manager. I wanted a therapist. She thought this was better as it is focused on current issues and circumstances I am facing. How am I going to navigate my current environment and the pressures.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #98  
Old May 12, 2014, 01:50 PM
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venusss venusss is offline
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Quote:
Yes, I believe that if someone is truly mentally ill medication is a necessity in order to live a successful life, and to avoid hurting others in all the ways a non-medicated mentally ill person can hurt others. That's my story and I'm stickn' to it.
How do non-medicated people hurt each other and how would medication prevent it? What is a successful life? Who measures the success?

Also... what if somebody is bad off, but just reacts badly to every med? What about them?

Again, it's not so simple.
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Last edited by venusss; May 12, 2014 at 02:14 PM.
  #99  
Old May 12, 2014, 02:10 PM
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Altered Moment Altered Moment is offline
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Originally Posted by Sister Rags View Post
Yes, I believe that if someone is truly mentally ill medication is a necessity in order to live a successful life, and to avoid hurting others in all the ways a non-medicated mentally ill person can hurt others. That's my story and I'm stickn' to it.

By the way - what, exactly, is the goal of this thread? Most of what I'm reading here are the right/wrong arguments, little or no consideration of others' experiences and opinions. Is a thread like this just a place to spend time bantering back and forth...I'm right, you're wrong, you don't know, I know better, and all kinds of defense-based misunderstandings....What's the purpose of all of this?

I'd like to share a very powerful thread I just read: http://forums.psychcentral.com/bipol...r-bipolar.html
If you read the title and my first post that would be the intention of the thread. The fact that it weaves and bobs all over the place doesn't really bother me. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought it was you who said you liked how threads weaved and bobbed all over.

What bothers me about it is that it is most likely that no one else will ever read it. If everyone had stuck to the original questions and only shared their experience and views on that subject it is much more likely others would read it and get something out of it. As it is it is, it is probably only us reading it. And I don't like that aspect of it. I am not the thread police though.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman

Major Depressive Disorder
Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun.
Recovering Alcoholic and Addict
Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide.

Male, 50

Fetzima 80mg
Lamictal 100mg
Remeron 30mg for sleep
Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back
  #100  
Old May 12, 2014, 02:15 PM
sewerrats sewerrats is offline
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when I am not medicated , im not in a good place so I am not a bundle of laughs , I got in a lot of fights when young on the depression part of bipolar and I made a lot of babies on the manic bit , cost me a fortune in child maintinace there all grown up now. MEDICATED I am more or less level with only slight dips not major ones , speak,s for itself really.
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