[cocktailAnnie]

So I'm reminded of being abbynormal again --- mass shooters are often found to be on a cocktail of psych meds --- or NEEDING one.

Ambien -- shame on you!!
Antianxiety -- whoa!!
Antidepressant -- get outta here!!

How do you feel when bad events happen and the news shames people?

Would they rather we were all off of everything? I think not.

[Altered Moment]

Why are they blaming it on the meds?

I would think it would bring more awareness to the issue and for more people to realize that this **** is real and a lot of people need real help.

[Anouk]

If they can blame it on meds then that means they can perpetuate the idea that only 'crazy' people do these things. That is would not ever be them and that it would never happen to them.

[-jimi-]

Since I'm on the same med as one of the Columbine shooters.... if someone gets to know and questions it... I joke and tell them to look out. Kind of shuts them up.

But I do feel there are downsides to lower people's inhibitions which some meds do. What if something does pop up that my brain dealt with but can't suppress because of the med? I do think this happens sometimes. Kids don't react the same as adults to meds, and IMO they should be watched carefully while medicated, not just thrown pills and that's that.

[LaborIntensive]

Society is sick in general. It makes no difference to me personally when they portray people as "having suffered depression and PTSD." They seem to say that for everyone on the news committing murder. What they NEED to do is cover these issues and actual perform the long lost art of "investigative journalism" to uncover truths and aid in the process of helping those who need it.

I wish they would also cover suicide more to draw attention to the skyrocketing numbers but of course the job of the news it seems is a mouthpiece for politics and to tell you over and over how wonderful it is to be thin, happy and in a family with a garden while you soak up the stories of movie stars and talk about them at work and with friends.

[Altered Moment]

I can totally understand killing myself. But to take others with me I can never understand. For someone to do this they are in a very deep state of psychosis which can be caused my depression, bi polar, schitzophrenia, PTSD and so on. To blame the meds is ludicrous in my opinion.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by LaborIntensive

Society is sick in general. It makes no difference to me personally when they portray people as "having suffered depression and PTSD." They seem to say that for everyone on the news committing murder. What they NEED to do is cover these issues and actual perform the long lost art of "investigative journalism" to uncover truths and aid in the process of helping those who need it.

I wish they would also cover suicide more to draw attention to the skyrocketing numbers but of course the job of the news it seems is a mouthpiece for politics and to tell you over and over how wonderful it is to be thin, happy and in a family with a garden while you soak up the stories of movie stars and talk about them at work and with friends.

How true. The numbers of suicides in the military has sky rocketed. I am sure the VA would rather ignore it and hope it goes away.

The prison system is a joke. There is no such thing as rehabilitation. Most of the prison population has drug and alcohol or mental illness related issues. They just make career criminals out of them.

What is going to be interesting is that they are doing many more brain studies on muderers and rapist and child molesters and gang members and so on, and are discovering major abnormalities in their brains.

Of course defense lawyers are going to jump all over this and say well it wasn't his fault he murdered that guy his brain is abnormal. It will be an interesting debate.

I don't think my depression is my fault but I am still responsible for my actions. There is a big difference between fault and blame and responsibility. I am not to blame for having an addictive personality and being an alcoholic, it is a disease. I am however responsible for my recovery.

[venusss]

Well.... and then some tout that the shootings happen because shooters were not on meds or not on enough meds..................

I can totally understand killing myself. But to take others with me I can never understand. For someone to do this they are in a very deep state of psychosis which can be caused my depression, bi polar, schitzophrenia, PTSD and so on. To blame the meds is ludicrous in my opinion.

So shall we blame it just on the "illness"? And what then? Lock the crazies away?

What pisses me off is people like the (forced) Treatment advocacy center or Jani foundation who jump on these tragedies with "SEE THEY WEREN'T ON MEDS! FORCED TREATMENT NOW! IT WILL TOTALLY PREVENT THESE TRAGEDIES!". So in a way it's good to point out that some of the shooters, indeed, were on meds and didn't prevent the tragedy, so dealing with this issue is not as easy as stomping on human rights of crazies in name of greater good.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

So shall we blame it just on the "illness"? And what then? Lock the crazies away?

I don't think you can insinuate that I want to lock up all the crazies. I said it was my hope that these cases would bring more awareness and less stigma to mental illness and hopefully more understanding and more help. I happen to think anyone who commits murder or rape or molests a child does have some form of mental illness. So in a sense yes blame the illness. That doesn't mean I think it is a defense or that people are not responsible for their actions. It is true that abusers were most often abused themselves. I am certainly not an expert on the psychology of crime and punishment but you can't really say the prison system does anything to help people, that it has any compassion. All it does is breed hardened criminals. Someone who is a teenager gets in a gang and deals drugs and then gets caught up in the criminal justice system is basically screwed for life. Maybe there is a way the justice system could help that kid before the prison system turns him into a hardened criminal in the shoe in Pelican Bay.

I certainly don't advocate forced treatments and that whole movement. That is just crazy talk in my opinion. I do advocate more understanding and more help. And more research on what will help more effectively.

For the anti med crowd to blame it on the meds is almost as bad as the forced treatment crowd trampling on human rights.

[venusss]

I happen to think anyone who commits murder or rape or molests a child does have some form of mental illness

I don't think so. Some people are evil.

Few years ago I had argument with somebody here about Gaddafi (you know that freak of Libya who dressed in curtains and hoarded chemical weapons and killed a lot of people) being bipolar. I thought and still think that you cannot blame some things on mental illness.

I do think there is truly evil people though.


And as for meds causing agression... sometimes they do. And that is not being anti-med, that is... what it is. I don't think you can blame the meds for mass shootings, I think people normally have much more restraint then that.... but... meds can put one into psychosis. They can cause anger issues. But if person is experiencing this, they need to deal with it some way.

There is not excuse for murder. And I am not sure if trying to be understanding of it can help any way.

[sewerrats]

A great number of British front line soldiers were on ANTI DEPRESSANTS in Afgan an still fighting on the front line , British battles were on foot patrol not in armoured vehicles its just our way . They have nothing when they leave the army same has America, so if your screwed up with what you have seen an witnessed you are screwed big time. The thing is we don't have access to guns , so no death by cop, or mass shootings. They crash there cars into remote places at 100mph or hang them self in the woods. I don't think I would be hear today if I has easy access to a gun at all times. People that want to kill them self don't write goodbye letters , they just do it. SOLDIERS in the fist 2 war,s never got any help ,they were shot either has deserters or no good has fighting men ,

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I don't think so. Some people are evil.

Few years ago I had argument with somebody here about Gaddafi (you know that freak of Libya who dressed in curtains and hoarded chemical weapons and killed a lot of people) being bipolar. I thought and still think that you cannot blame some things on mental illness.

I do think there is truly evil people though.

And as for meds causing agression... sometimes they do. And that is not being anti-med, that is... what it is. I don't think you can blame the meds for mass shootings, I think people normally have much more restraint then that.... but... meds can put one into psychosis. They can cause anger issues. But if person is experiencing this, they need to deal with it some way.

There is not excuse for murder. And I am not sure if trying to be understanding of it can help any way.

But what does it mean to be evil? Define it? Does it mean they are possessed by some demon? Is Satan real and influences peoples behaviour?
Are some people born evil? How do you define that little baby looking back as being evil? Hitler was a little baby at one time was he evil then? Did the devil send him into this world?

To me someone who is evil obviously has something wrong with them but what is it? I think there are a lot of brain disorders, mind disorders, mental illness that we don't even have a name for. There is so much we don't understand. Maybe there is no help for a murderer or for someone who is evil. But that is often the case for us with mental illness as well.

What is sad to me is how little effective help there is for those of us with mental illness. I have tried every path for my depression. All the meds, all the therapies, AA, Alanon, The steps, prayer meditation, supplements, alternatives, and yet my depression keeps getting worse. Maybe my best bet is to just accept myself as I am and embrace the depression which essentially what I have done. But that doesn't mean I don't hold out hope for the future or for my daughter.

I know meds can cause psychosis and have lots of adverse effects. I have read the articles on antipsychotics and the debate over whether they cause brain damage and cause more harm then good. I am totally against compulsary treatment. That some doc can go into a court and the court can mandate this med regimen and treatment plan. It should totally be a free decision between a patient and a doctor knowing the risks.

i will say again it is sad to me that for many of us there is so little effective treatment. So someone who is schizophrenic chooses not to go on meds, great. But I do not think going to psychoanalysis is going to really help either. If it is a biological disease just like I believe my depression is what are we to do?

We need a lot more research and a lot more trial and error and a lot more investment and yes more understanding. Maybe there is no understanding or compassion for someone who commits murder or no way to help them maybe they are evil. But I believe someday hopefully we will be able to help them. I certainly think that a kid who grows up in an abusive home and gets into drugs and alcohol and joins a gang and such can be helped before he ends up being a murderer. We do have enough understanding in that case. Once in prison where they have essentially lost all human rights as it is then they should be forced into treatment that can help them and maybe save their lives. As it is they are basically forced to join a prison gang. Every thing they do in prison is forced. Most of them start out with drug and alcohol and mental health issues and get caught up in the system. That is just a fact. The just plain "evil" ones are the minority.

[venusss]

I don't know what to do. I struggle myself a lot at times... so I kinda don't appreciate being put up in same cathegory as mass murders based on a label. I hate myself enough as it is at times.

[NWgirl2013]

Violent crime points to disorder & in simple terms a lack of empathy as a component. Mental illness does not point to evil. Evil usually points to some variety of symptoms, diagnosed & treated or not treated.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by NWgirl2013

Violent crime points to disorder & in simple terms a lack of empathy as a component. Mental illness does not point to evil. Evil usually points to some variety of symptoms, diagnosed & treated or not treated.

Lack of empathy + high agressivity + issues during development (as much as NAMI mommies refuse to admit it, parent has an effect on development of individual).

Again, I don't really think evil has to do with mental illness. I would use it for the extreme cases (Hitler, Milosevic, Pol Pot, that Russian guy that looks like Voldermort...). Or extremelly sadistic or just effed up beings (some try to pull the schizo card on Breivik :/)

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I don't know what to do. I struggle myself a lot at times... so I kinda don't appreciate being put up in same cathegory as mass murders based on a label. I hate myself enough as it is at times.

I certainly didn't mean to put you in the same category. Obviously I don't think that about you.

I am just trying to understand. I have never liked labels or diagnosis either, or to be put in a certain box, or a certain check mark on a chart. Nowadays I don't really care. I know I am a whole person and not a label.

How can you talk about things without giving things names or labels or descriptive terms. It is impossible. Evil is a label. How do you define it though?

How do you describe or explain why the guy in Fort Hood did what he did? You could just say he is evil but that doesn't tell you much.

I agree Hiltler and Pol Pot were evil. Although I don't believe in the devil or hell. Why were they evil? What made them that way? Something was obviously very wrong with them. Maybe Hitlers Mommy smoked a lot of crack the whole time she was pregnant....I dunno.

I think we should try to find out answers to these questions. Maybe we can prevent the next guy at Fort Hood from twisting off.

[Altered Moment]

I am sorry. I am kind of manic the last couple of days. My new meds are kicking in and I am coming out of a long depression. I get this way for awhile when I come out of a depression. I can't shut my mind off. I must have written a book in these forums the last couple of days. Plus I love to argue and debate about anything.

What Would We Find Wrong in the Brain of a Serial Killer? | Psychology Today

They do have some labels but I do not think they understand very much.

[-jimi-]

I do think it usually takes more than one thing to be "evil". I mean, I'm seriously an unempathic person. It means I don't feel for other people in the same way others do. (But just to make myself not sounding like a psychopath I value justice and expect people to treat eachother right.) If you have no hostile drive I doubt you become a killer. Some people host a lot of aggression, and it can have many reasons. Still sometimes I've been really aggro (as a young adult), but never caused anyone harm. So I think you have to have poor impulse control for some reason or the other. My impulse control is usually sky high. There is no coincidence violent crimes happen when people drink, then the last factor, disinhibition comes in.

When I was on celexa it caused me severe disinhibition. Luckily it made me less angry too. But I have kind of been where a med took my self control, and it is quite scary actually. I know I am supposed to say all meds are safe for everyone, but I don't believe it myself.

Less interesting for the media is fact that people with mental illness more often than others, are victims of crimes committed by people without. But makes no big news because everyone knows we're not worthy or something crap like that.

And Breivik being schizo... that is just so far fetched.

I feel a mixture and want to know more about the circumstances.

There are plenty of of drugs with psychosis on the side effect list. Combining more then one of those is troubling.

Poly pharmaceutical treatment is troubling to me period. I don't understand how they justify it. Nobody has any idea how they will work together and which one to remove. It's a crap shoot of the worst king. My opinion.

Is there a history? This is one reason it is a good idea to include family members or friends, therapists and teachers if relevant in the evaluation... If possible. It would have been possible with several of the high profile shootings.

15 minute evaluations? Crap.

Culture of violence? No doubt this contributes. How does one explain Colorado? Furthermore, not talking about it is probably even more damaging. It's probably a combination, IMO.

My opinion.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lauliza]

I agree with Venus, some people are just bad people (if we don't want to use the term "evil). Probably happens more with antisocial personalities than with others although anything is possible. And not that I am an expert because I am in school, but we talk about this all the time, and I think it is so fascinating. Like it or not parenting absolutely has an impact on how a person develops, good and sometimes bad.

There tends to be a stereotype, especially with AS kids lack empathy and therefore don't have a conscience. But this is just not true. They have feelings, they just can't lable and understand them. Antisocial personality disordered people are different. They do understand other people's feelings (how they manage to be so manipulative), but have no regard for them. I only point out Asperger's here because I think a lot of people lack empathy for various reasons, but that doesn't make them bad people at all. Many strive to understand other people better so they can get along in the world. They can be difficult people, but that can be worked with.

[-jimi-]

I have noticed I'm pretty alone in the aspie community being a callous freak. A lot of my aspie friends have A LOT of compassion, many are very generous, very loyal etc. Some are even too sensitive to other people's feelings. So I'm calling myth on that one.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Lauliza

Like it or not parenting absolutely has an impact on how a person develops, good and sometimes bad.

The only exception here would be people with schizophrenia and Asperger's Disorder

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here but I don't think I totally agree if I am understanding correctly.

You could also list Bi Polar disorder, Depression, and other disorders.

Bad parenting and a bad environment when a child is developing for sure can have a huge impact on that person.

I think that a child can grow up in the most ideal of circumstances and nurturing environment and so on and still have Bi Polar Disorder or Depression. Some times it is just totally genetic and biological.

For me I think genetics and biology are huge factors, but it is a mixed up bag of other factors too.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here but I don't think I totally agree if I am understanding correctly.

You could also list Bi Polar disorder, Depression, and other disorders.

Bad parenting and a bad environment when a child is developing for sure can have a huge impact on that person.

I think that a child can grow up in the most ideal of circumstances and nurturing environment and so on and still have Bi Polar Disorder or Depression. Some times it is just totally genetic and biological.

For me I think genetics and biology are huge factors, but it is a mixed up bag of other factors too.

You're right about that. I don't think mental illness is a result of bad parenting at all. Like you say, I believe it's a mix of many things, including biology. I was responding to the comments regarding people who commit atrociuos acts...if they are "evil" or mentally ill or both. I don't think it reads well but I meant to imply that parenting/upbringing has more effect on character (being evil) than mental illness.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by jimi...

I have noticed I'm pretty alone in the aspie community being a callous freak. A lot of my aspie friends have A LOT of compassion, many are very generous, very loyal etc. Some are even too sensitive to other people's feelings. So I'm calling myth on that one.

I'm sorry, the way I wrote my post sounded wrong and I just edited it. My point is what you are saying, that even though Aspies may lack empathy (which is merely understanding another's viewpoint) they don't lack sympathy and compassion. My daughter is an Aspie and she has difficulty with social cues and can come across as insensitive. But in reality she is extremely compassionate and sensitive. There is a stereotype however that Aspie people don't care about other people and that is a myth. I mentioned the newtown shooter because there were some terrible articles written linking him to Aspergers. Whether he had it or not was irrelevant, but people tend to misunderstand the disorder (like they misunderstand schizophrenia). Sorry if I offended you at all.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Lauliza

You're right about that. I don't think mental illness is a result of bad parenting at all. Like you say, I believe it's a mix of many things, including biology. I was responding to the comments regarding people who commit atrociuos acts...if they are "evil" or mentally ill or both. I don't think it reads well but I meant to imply that parenting/upbringing has more effect on character (being evil) than mental illness.

I understand what you are saying. I don't have much understanding beyond my own experience. But I want to understand.

Oh I think bad parenting can be a huge factor in mental illness. Well at least in depression and anxiety. I don't know about bi polar. For sure though child abuse, neglect, and all can have a huge impact on a developing brain and cause depression and anxiety for sure later in life. Even an emotionally unavailable parent when every thing else is great can create huge abandonment issues.

They have done enough brain scans to know that trauma and abuse changes the brain.

As far as the evil doers doesn't seem like they understand very much. And it is a shame that some in congress and in the media and society are totally ignorant about it and want mandatory treatments and all that and only make the stigma worse. Like jimi said those of us with mental illness are much more likely to have been victims of crime than to commit crime.