We were talking about this a lot in another thread. I'm starting to uncover memories - they're just coming to me at very random times, when my brain isn't even thinking about the past, but instead is very quiet (like right before I go to sleep or when I'm walking my dog). I question whether some of the more disturbing memories are real or not, though they certainly feel real, and the emotions are very real.

I've been reading about repressed memories - I know that there's a lot of controversy surrounding that topic. I've also been reading about dissociation and realized that I have dissociated in the past, sometimes after a hard therapy session. How do I know, if I have a memory gap from childhood, if I dissociated or repressed the memory? And does it matter?

I'm very interested to hear how others have dealt with uncovering memories in therapy - has your T used a certain technique, or did the memories just come to you out of the blue, like mine did? Did your T have any words of wisdom on how to make sense of these memories popping up? Did you ever question if the memories were real or not?

T and I discussed this a bit at the end of last week's session. This will definitely be my main topic of discussion in tomorrow's session!

IMHO, any memory that is not collaborated by evidence is just that, a memory. Without collaboration, you will never know whether it is true or false and "symptoms" do not tell you whether it is true or false. Be careful about that issue.

With that said, good T's DO NOT force memories or use technique to "uncover" memories or that maybe suggestive. Many lives have been ruined by poor therapists trying to "recover memories."

Let the memories come naturally. And what is important is understanding your feelings, emotions, and reactions to them.
Memory is tricky and science knows alot about memory, but we are still learning about traumatic memory.

I do believe repressed and dissociated memories exist.
Why? Personally, I have dissociated alot of "memories." But I have collaboration for a great deal of abuse that I do not remember (social service reports and foster care documents and physical scars). I see the reports but I can't remember things. Period.
I am perhaps the best example science has to offer regarding this issue, because the collaboration is there, 100%, but yet, I can't remember. I remember some of my childhood, but miss chunks of time.

So, my advice. Let your memories come naturally, but also question whether it is possible based on your other knowledge about life. Don't take memory face value, but take the feelings and work with them.

I read that >80% of abused people remember some of their abuse. Even people with DID. To repress/dissociate everything is rare. This makes sense, because under constant abuse, at times a child's mind can not "act" to dissociate the memory.

Furthermore, science tells us that most people do not have memories of their childhood much before 4 and 5 years old. So, reporting abuse in infancy or toddlerhood without collaborated evidence should make yourself ask about the accuracy of the memory. Not dismiss the feelings, but question the memory.

Without collaboration, be weary. But that does not mean it is not true. I am 100% collaborated proof that "dissociation" exists.

Best to you.

[deliquesce]

i dont know if i have anything to add to tollhouse's excellent post .

i struggled (and still struggle) with the idea of repressed/recovered memories, and whether they are true in fact or not. i think i am slowly moving to a place where it probably doesn't matter for me.

i do know some certain things happened, but they are (imo) very 'minor' - not as scary as some of the things i 'recovered' and am uncertain about. but just the very fact that those minor things happened suggests that i wasn't living in a healthy environment, and that's really all the understanding i need right now of my past.

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

I'm very interested to hear how others have dealt with uncovering memories in therapy - has your T used a certain technique, or did the memories just come to you out of the blue, like mine did? Did your T have any words of wisdom on how to make sense of these memories popping up? Did you ever question if the memories were real or not?

My memories started coming fast and furious when I felt relatively safe with T. As we talked about my childhood, things just popped into my memory, things that I knew had happened but had forgotten about or had previously been unemotional about. All of a sudden I was crying when I remembered these things that I had always had some memory of. It was all very scary for me.

I appreciated that as each came up, I took it in to T and we would talk about what happened and how I felt then and how I felt now. I talked about each memory A LOT. Over and over again for weeks. Eventually I stopped feeling so haunted by the memories.

I tormented myself a lot about whether my memories were 'real,' whether I was remembering what 'really happened.' T said we don't know the real story, maybe there isn't one objective version of events. But we have how I remember them, my interpretation of them, and some corroboration that the events occurred (family members have acknowledged there was violence).

At a certain point I have had to trust my own version of events, my own memory. I know it can get things mixed up, but generally I think I remember how it was for me to live through all that.

Be gentle with yourself as all these memories crop up. It's a scary time.

good T's DO NOT force memories or use technique to "uncover" memories or that maybe suggestive.

I completely agree - my T has never tried to force a memory. In fact, she's never made a big deal out of my memory gaps.

Let your memories come naturally, but also question whether it is possible based on your other knowledge about life. Don't take memory face value, but take the feelings and work with them.

So far, the memories that have come to me are most likely true, as they follow other memories that I've always had, in terms of my mother getting physically violent with me.

I read that >80% of abused people remember some of their abuse. Even people with DID. To repress/dissociate everything is rare. This makes sense, because under constant abuse, at times a child's mind can not "act" to dissociate the memory.

That makes sense. I certainly remember a lot. But for whatever reason, I have blocked out certain 'events' that I know happened - and I know they happened because for one such 'event' when my mother was yelling at me, my brother overheard it all and told me, that's the only reason I know it happened. And then I remember all the details leading up to a really difficult conversation I had with my mother when I was 12, but I don't remember the actual conversation, but I know we had it.

i do know some certain things happened, but they are (imo) very 'minor' - not as scary as some of the things i 'recovered' and am uncertain about. but just the very fact that those minor things happened suggests that i wasn't living in a healthy environment, and that's really all the understanding i need right now of my past.

deli

I have yet to recover any memories that don't jive with my other memories - they are just adding to the overall picture. For whatever reason, though, it's important to me to remember as much as I can - I'm not sure why, I just want to know and understand.

I kept so many diaries, since I was 8 or 9, and I threw them all out several years ago - I so wish I still had those!

Originally Posted by skeksi

My memories started coming fast and furious when I felt relatively safe with T. As we talked about my childhood, things just popped into my memory, things that I knew had happened but had forgotten about or had previously been unemotional about. All of a sudden I was crying when I remembered these things that I had always had some memory of. It was all very scary for me.

Skeksi, that's exactly what's happening with me - I am finally feeling safe with T. In fact, last week was the first time I cried in front of T - not about childhood but another issue. I did tell her, though, about the two memories that popped up for me - it was very rushed, since it was at the end of the session. I feel like we need to go over them again, because I didnt' take the time to feel the emotions that go along with those memories.

I appreciated that as each came up, I took it in to T and we would talk about what happened and how I felt then and how I felt now. I talked about each memory A LOT. Over and over again for weeks. Eventually I stopped feeling so haunted by the memories.

Our T's sound very much alike! My T asked me what feelings the memory brought up for me, and how I felt now as well. I think I want to talk about these memories more in my session tomorrow. I do feel almost haunted by them, yes!

I tormented myself a lot about whether my memories were 'real,' whether I was remembering what 'really happened.' T said we don't know the real story, maybe there isn't one objective version of events. But we have how I remember them, my interpretation of them, and some corroboration that the events occurred (family members have acknowledged there was violence).
skeksi

At a certain point I have had to trust my own version of events, my own memory. I know it can get things mixed up, but generally I think I remember how it was for me to live through all that.

Be gentle with yourself as all these memories crop up. It's a scary time.

Thank you, skeksi! It does feel scary and very unsettling.

(ETA: I hit 500 posts!)

Like skeksi, once I felt safe with T, the memories started flooding in.

A lot of things were things I had always remembered, but somehow put them into a little compartment in my head where they weren't a "big deal". Those memories started having a lot of emotions attached to them...fear, pain, horror, sadness, more fear...that I can't believe I didn't have attached to them before. I guess it was self-protective until I was in a place where I could deal with them.

There are other things that I have remembered since starting therapy. I compare it to hearing a song on the radio that I haven't heard for a long time. It comes on, I know all the words, I can sing along...and even though I haven't heard that song for years and years, and I forgot that it even existed, I *know* it when I hear it, and I remember how it goes, and what the lyrics are, and even what was going on in my life when it used to be on the radio regularly. That's how the memories feel.

Blech.

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

deli

I have yet to recover any memories that don't jive with my other memories - they are just adding to the overall picture. For whatever reason, though, it's important to me to remember as much as I can - I'm not sure why, I just want to know and understand.

I kept so many diaries, since I was 8 or 9, and I threw them all out several years ago - I so wish I still had those!

congrats on 500 posts, YEAH!!!!

i definitely went through a very long period of desperately needing to know as much as i could. i remember being so torn about whether what i was recovering was true or not. so i can relate to where you are now. and i'm not over it completely, maybe just more tired so it doesn't matter as much - i dont have the energy to care.

a lot of my memories gel with the ones i 'know' are true... but then i begin to doubt them. for me, i was in denial the whole time. not just denial - i was angry that these things were happening, so i made a conscious decision to not let them come into my life. i kept a journal from when i was in year 3 through to year 12, and in those 9 years i never once wrote about any of the 'bad' stuff that happened. i think i only mentioned my SI and ED once, lol. i wanted my life to be good and not 'tainted', so i just omitted large parts of my history .

my memories also started coming back thick and fast when i felt safe with pdoc. something i had heard triggered them, but then they went on for ages. i was too scared to share them with pdoc, so we would just sit in the room together twice a week (i was a mess - he saw me as often as he could), and he would just say soothing things to me and keep talking the whole time. i dont know how much/if i ever responded, but just his gentle presence helped. i've since found out i must have disclosed a bit, at least, because this year when i was trying to tell him something for the first time, he was like - oh, like when so and so happened. so i dont know. i'm good at blocking things out .

just take things at your own pace, dont rush it, and you'll come out the other end ok .

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by treehouse

A lot of things were things I had always remembered, but somehow put them into a little compartment in my head where they weren't a "big deal". Those memories started having a lot of emotions attached to them...fear, pain, horror, sadness, more fear...that I can't believe I didn't have attached to them before.

Yes! Yes, this is exactly what it's like. Thank you for putting words to it, Tree

Originally Posted by treehouse

A lot of things were things I had always remembered, but somehow put them into a little compartment in my head where they weren't a "big deal". Those memories started having a lot of emotions attached to them...fear, pain, horror, sadness, more fear...that I can't believe I didn't have attached to them before. I guess it was self-protective until I was in a place where I could deal with them.

There are other things that I have remembered since starting therapy. I compare it to hearing a song on the radio that I haven't heard for a long time. It comes on, I know all the words, I can sing along...and even though I haven't heard that song for years and years, and I forgot that it even existed, I *know* it when I hear it, and I remember how it goes, and what the lyrics are, and even what was going on in my life when it used to be on the radio regularly. That's how the memories feel.

Tree, I can relate so much to not having emotions attached to memories at first... when I first told T about some hardships growing up (I still can't bring myself to call it abuse), T kept asking me how it made me feel, and I really couldn't say. Last week was the first time I could honestly say how it made me feel, and for whatever reason, those 2 new memories brought those feelings forward - anger and helplessness.

I totally get what you mean about the song, too - love the way you described that. I think I need to trust my instincts. Deep down, I think I know they are real memories, I just don't want to admit to being hurt even more than I originally remembered.

[BlueMoon6]

Dream- Yes- we were talking about the strange times that memories come to us. I get memories in those moments before falling asleep and they scare me and I cant fall asleep. When I have memories, it seems I have the feelings first, not the memory.I remember the room, the way the light came in through the blinds, the doorknob, and how I felt. How my body felt. But then I dont remember what was going on. Just how I felt- terrified, alone, afraid of certain things in the room, pain in my body. But what happened I am not sure. Some memories have come to me and when they do It seems to me that they have been there all along- that I am not really remembering something I forgot, I am just sort of thinking of something I always knew. But the truth is, I did forget it. And there is so much I just remember feelings about but not why or what was going on.

It is very powerful when you say you should trust your instincts b/c deep down you know they are real memories but you just dont want to feel more hurt than you originally remembered. I feel the same- feeling the pain of how I felt at that time is very scary, how I originally remembered hurts much less.

I think memories I have from when I was older are more without feelings. I remember more events and things that were said to me without feelings attached. The yonger memories seem to be body/feeling memory if that makes any sense.

Thank you Toll. So a memory is dissociated if you cant remember what happened? But you remember some? Or remember feelings?

Originally Posted by skeksi

At a certain point I have had to trust my own version of events, my own memory. I know it can get things mixed up, but generally I think I remember how it was for me to live through all that.

((((skeksi)))) Im sorry

Originally Posted by Deliquesce

my memories also started coming back thick and fast when i felt safe with pdoc. something i had heard triggered them, but then they went on for ages. i was too scared to share them with pdoc, so we would just sit in the room together twice a week (i was a mess - he saw me as often as he could), and he would just say soothing things to me and keep talking the whole time. i dont know how much/if i ever responded, but just his gentle presence helped. i've since found out i must have disclosed a bit, at least, because this year when i was trying to tell him something for the first time, he was like - oh, like when so and so happened. so i dont know. i'm good at blocking things out

(((Deli)))) You are so brave. And so fortunate to have pdoc.

[velcro003]

Everything in this thread is so great and supportive, I have nothing further to add! I agree that once you are safe with T, they will start pouring in.

I have another semi-related thought/question about memories. I can 100% understand repressed memories with any sort of trauma or abuse; your brain needs to go in self-protective mode. Something that I struggle with BIG time is that I have had no trauma or abuse. This has been a big issue for me in therapy, because I don't feel deserving of being in there much of the time. There is so much worse out there that people deal with, and I just have trouble dealing with my own measly life.

I have very little memory of my childhood. Almost nothing (a few snippets here and there) from when I am about 5-9 years old. From 10-12/13, there is more there, but not a whole lot. Starting my teenage years is when I have better memory recall. My T seems to think that those memories are there, but are blocked because I shut them down at some point. I can see her reasoning on this, but I don't really believe it for myself.

My mom was visiting this past weekend, and she knows I am frustrated with the fact I can't remember my childhood. She made me a little photobook depicting the years, and it was really nice. I am HAPPY in these pictures! I am happy in all my pictures growing up, so why can't I remember them? But she also said she doesn't remember much of her childhood either, and that it just must be genetic. I think there is a genetic aspect to it, because my dad's memory sucks too. Her previous T must have been more CBT-oriented, because she said he just focused on the here and now, and they didn't really delve into the past too much.

She told me this past weekend that we had a good relationship, I was loved. I think it is hard for her to understand why I need/want so much distance from her now. I can't give her an answer, because I just know that I do. I know that people in their 20s (I'm 28.5) need to "find themselves", and that involves some distancing. I think she knows that too, but is it just that? I feel so bad that I am digging for some sort of answers of who I am today from a childhood that doesn't need digging.

Maybe everything was great and happy, and I am just stuck in life and afraid of intimacy and change because I just suck? I don't know, but this so sucks.

Originally Posted by velcro003

Everything in this thread is so great and supportive, I have nothing further to add! I agree that once you are safe with T, they will start pouring in.

I have another semi-related thought/question about memories. I can 100% understand repressed memories with any sort of trauma or abuse; your brain needs to go in self-protective mode. Something that I struggle with BIG time is that I have had no trauma or abuse. This has been a big issue for me in therapy, because I don't feel deserving of being in there much of the time. There is so much worse out there that people deal with, and I just have trouble dealing with my own measly life.

I have very little memory of my childhood. Almost nothing (a few snippets here and there) from when I am about 5-9 years old. From 10-12/13, there is more there, but not a whole lot. Starting my teenage years is when I have better memory recall. My T seems to think that those memories are there, but are blocked because I shut them down at some point. I can see her reasoning on this, but I don't really believe it for myself.

She told me this past weekend that we had a good relationship, I was loved. I think it is hard for her to understand why I need/want so much distance from her now. I can't give her an answer, because I just know that I do. I know that people in their 20s (I'm 28.5) need to "find themselves", and that involves some distancing. I think she knows that too, but is it just that? I feel so bad that I am digging for some sort of answers of who I am today from a childhood that doesn't need digging.

Maybe everything was great and happy, and I am just stuck in life and afraid of intimacy and change because I just suck? I don't know, but this so sucks.

Just because you don't "remember" your childhood does NOT mean something bad happened. Studies have shown that for memories to "persist" they need to (a) be encoded into language and (b) the events must be discussed with parents/guardians or other special people in children's lives.
Many studies have been done showing the difference in memory among people who discussed childhood events versus those that did not discuss events. The studies have been done in different cultures where discussion of childhood events is different, say like comparing Asian children to children in the US. The differences are very interesting. Asians forget much more because they are less likely to discuss events.

Further studies have shown that the mother's interaction with a child influences memory. So if your mother was a talker and filled with stories and description, you would more likely have a better memory compared to someone whose mother might have been less talkative or less involved.

Unless you have collaboration, a memory is a memory. And if you don't have memories, don't assume it is because of trauma. That is one explanation, but there are many others that are scientifically known, stress, depression, anxiety, physical illness, etc, etc.
And if you have pictures of your life that show that you are predominately happy as a child and your current familial relationships as an adult are "in-tact," I would think about that, before searching for things. Because the effects of "false memories" are incredibly powerful and hurtful. (I don't like to use that term, but "false memories" do exist and usually occur in clients who are vulnerable with T's who are suggestive that something happened to cause memories to be missing, although other life signs point to an absence of trauma) "False memories" have destroyed years of people's lives. It is sad.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Thank you Toll. So a memory is dissociated if you cant remember what happened? But you remember some? Or remember feelings?

Yes to all. Some people dissociate from the event completely and hence forget the event later in life. Some dissociate part of the event, some dissociate the feelings of the event.

TRIGGER**For example, a child might remember being burned by a cigarette, but dissociate from the actual act of r*pe. Or a child might remember being beaten, but dissociate the feeling of anger.

Dissociation works in a variety of ways, but the outcome is the same; it is a protective mechanism to remove the child from pain.

Example: In people with DID, which is a severe form of dissociation, the person might have an alter that was created to deal with a feeling, like anger or the person might have an alter that was created to deal with the event. But it is completely an unconscious process which the child does not control.

My mom was visiting this past weekend, and she knows I am frustrated with the fact I can't remember my childhood. She made me a little photobook depicting the years, and it was really nice. I am HAPPY in these pictures! I am happy in all my pictures growing up, so why can't I remember them? But she also said she doesn't remember much of her childhood either, and that it just must be genetic.

velcro
That's really nice that your mother brought you the childhood photos, that she's trying to help you remember. Don't feel guilty for pulling away, though - it's natural for children to pull away at some point, I didn't do it until I was 27 and moved halfway across the country, away from my parents.

I think tollhouse's explanation is very interesting - I tend to remember all good things, as my family would often reminisce about that, but it's not like we'd sit around the table, and my mother would say, "Remember the time I paddled you for doing such-and-such?" However, my brother and I have talked over the years about our memories, so that could play a part into why I have fairly good memory recall - just some holes here and there that I'm aware of. I also journaled a lot, I think that helps with memory retention. I will say, though, just to play devil's advocate - it's quite possible that the pictures show it all, your happy childhood. I have almost all happy childhood photos, too. But no one took a picture when my mother was in one of her narcissistic rages and I was sobbing.

Originally Posted by Tollhouse

Yes to all. Some people dissociate from the event completely and hence forget the event later in life. Some dissociate part of the event, some dissociate the feelings of the event.

TRIGGER**For example, a child might remember being burned by a cigarette, but dissociate from the actual act of r*pe. Or a child might remember being beaten, but dissociate the feeling of anger.

Dissociation works in a variety of ways, but the outcome is the same; it is a protective mechanism to remove the child from pain.

This is what my T and I have been working on - I have some memories of my mother (I can't use the A word) disciplining me, but there hasn't been any anger tied to those memories... until last week. T hasn't exactly been pushing me to feel the anger, but whenever she's asked what emotions I have felt, my response has always been the same - sad and helpless - and she'd ask if I ever felt any anger, I'd say no. Anger very much scares me, I'm not good at expressing it. T thinks I absorbed much of my mother's anger. So the fact that I remember being spanked or paddled or having my hair pulled by my mother, but I don't remember the anger - if that is a form of dissociation, it really makes sense for me.

I'm very interested to discuss this with my T at this evening's session!

[velcro003]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

velcro
That's really nice that your mother brought you the childhood photos, that she's trying to help you remember. Don't feel guilty for pulling away, though - it's natural for children to pull away at some point, I didn't do it until I was 27 and moved halfway across the country, away from my parents.

I think tollhouse's explanation is very interesting - I tend to remember all good things, as my family would often reminisce about that, but it's not like we'd sit around the table, and my mother would say, "Remember the time I paddled you for doing such-and-such?" However, my brother and I have talked over the years about our memories, so that could play a part into why I have fairly good memory recall - just some holes here and there that I'm aware of. I also journaled a lot, I think that helps with memory retention. I will say, though, just to play devil's advocate - it's quite possible that the pictures show it all, your happy childhood. I have almost all happy childhood photos, too. But no one took a picture when my mother was in one of her narcissistic rages and I was sobbing.

Yah tollhouse did bring up an interesting point. I don't think my family ever was like "remember the time when?..." Very often. I know the story of my birth well because I was born very premature. That definitely could paly a part in it too.

What you said about your family photos is what my T counters with when I tell her that I am happy! She goes "no one takes pictures during unhappy times" a good point. I do have some memories when my mom was unsupportive of me and angry, but these are only a few incidents. I can't "blame" anything on a few times when she was angry with me and didn't speak to me, you know? I also can't reconcile her being angry AND loving me at the same time.

[hangingon]

Sometimes I hate all the controversy behind missing, lost, hidden, repressed, whatever you want to call them memories.
All I know is that they do exist. Some may never recall them, some will.

Trigger*****
Example: I have a little sister, who was sexually abused at 3 years of age, hospital report done ect....
She doesn't remember a thing, nothing about it at all, I have not told her either, my mother told me to never tell her, but I had seen the medical picture and records.

For me, I have had memories resurface lately, again sometimes they are only snippets, but I don't deny they are real because I do have memories of things happening as well, even if not many. My first memories of the abuse start at around 5 years of age. In my case, there is some confirmation.

As far as pictures: I have very few pictures of when I was little but in all but one of them, there is not a smile on my face.
However, as someone else pointed out, picture's are not taken just after a beaten. Kids learn quite well how to hide things, how to put on and act. None of my teachers ever suspected anything, or at least they never made a report, I wish they had but I certainly didn't have the guts to tell them what was going on. (Someone could say to me, after viewing my pictures, oh you must have been a shy little girl.)

Now to my point....... just because there is no confirmation, does not mean that repressed memories do not exist, or that nothing happened, hense my little sisters case (she has major anxiety at times but doesn't know why because she doesn't remember).

Just because there was no one there to say hey, I saw this and that happen...means nothing. What if you were the only one? What if you had no siblings? If your parents were involved, there is no way in heck they are going to bring you to the doctor, unless there is some great excuse as to how something happened.

Abuse is always very secretive, and kids don't usually tell because of verbal threats, or perhaps because they thought the other person was loving them by what they were doing...

If you don't have confirmation, it does not make void what might of happened. You feel what you feel, and that needs to be worked on.

Sure I believe 100 percent that a therapist should never dig for things, or put things in the client's head. It's the client's job to express what they feel and think. The therapist is there to support the client, to help foster insight on the client's part. But it would be an absolute shame for a therapist to rule out repressed memories because of some old law suits, or some article they read. Most often, the therapist's that do that have never been abused themselves, so they really have no idea.

Science CAN'T verify that repressed memories do not exist, nor will they ever. They can study the whole mind and how it works, but will never, ever, be able to "see" the thoughts of another human. The brain is an amazing organ.

[BlueMoon6]

(((((Velcro))))) I just caught up on the posts. Its nice your mom is trying to help you and also a good thing that you can talk a little bit to her about what is frustrating you and she is inclined to help. She loves you. But that doesnt mean there werent difficult, if not sad or hurt, feelings that you experienced as a child. Being loved doesnt mean you always got the best messages about yourself- our parents just do what they know. Even if they mean well, it might not have been the best for you in each instance. You dont suck, dear velcro, maybe you just have some powerful feelings that have nothing to do with abuse or lack of it. Sometimes we just dont get what we need when we need it and to a child, its devastating. When I look at my children I am awed by how fragile they can be even when they arent babies. And how each one experiences their emotions in different ways. Some things are just easier for some children and for others, difficulties are major events. What Im saying is that you dont necessarily have to have had experienced something dramatic and horrible to be in the place you are and to want to talk to a therapist. Its really OK be you and to have had your history wtih or without the memories you are looking for. I imagine eventually the memories you need will surface the more you talk.

I think some people are confusing a couple of issues. Children (and adults) in general do not remember things much before the age of 4-5. This is called "childhood amnesia" and there are various reasons for not having memories during this time period. Alot of it has to do with development of the brain, language, being able to describe things, etc. Childhood amnesia exists whether there is trauma or not. It is different than dissociation or repression.

False memory proponents DO NOT say that dissociation and repression does not exist. FM folks say that memories are created in clients with no prior knowledge of abuse or collaboration of abuse or anything indicative of abuse except "symptoms." These memories are encouraged by and guided by therapists who are practicing therapeutic methods that encourage vulnerable clients to believe things that are not true; and then use dissociation as the explanation for lost memories that are recovered.
Methods such as direct questioning, telling clients that their symptoms are indicative of trauma, etc, etc. can create situations that a client responds in order to "please the therapist" and begins the false memory.

Additionally, FM proponents have shown that false memories become more dramatic and unrealistic as time in therapy increases. So for example, over time a client might start claiming events that would show scars, but when asked where the scars are, the client does not know.

As for photographs. Yes, people don't take pictures of "upsetting things," but in general, if you look at photographs over time in your childhood, they can be very insightful into how you felt as a child. Are your smiles forced? Are your pictures always posed or are there natural photos? Are siblings or others happy? There has been some interesting studies evaluating abused children and photos over time..kids look older than they are, smiles are forced, eyes are glossed over, always "others" in the photos...etc,etc.

My point of what I wrote is that without collaboration, a memory can never be assumed true. Memory of all type changes over time. What is important is not the memory, but the processing of the feelings. If you have a memory that you were abused as a child, but never were in actuality, there is a reason you feel that way....

Just my 2 cents.

[hangingon]

Just because

[velcro003]

Tollhouse, I hope you aren't thinking that I am lOOKING for abuse, because I'm not. I am very well aware I never was. What I am more interested in/frustrated by is that I am missing such large chunks of years (I don't remember kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade...tiny bits of 4th (when our house burned down), and from 5th on it gets better) and it seems abnormal from all the people I talk to who at least remember parts of these years.

So, what I am really asking is that do peoples memories vary so widely that you can just miss years because your memory sucks so bad? I know my parents loved me the best they could, but its hard because I don't really have an overall feeling of "I was happy. I was sad...etc" Like I said, when I'm 11ish is when I remember more; maybe it was because that is where we settled down in a house for the remainder of my childhood? We moved a lot before then. But, I lived in florida for 5 years and remember hardly any of it.

I just feel like I need "proof" of some sort to help explain why I am so afraid of intimacy and change. I know most people are, but I REALLY hate it. Like, I have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to change, and I never think I'll make it--even though I always do.

First, I am not trying to imply that you are *looking* for abuse. I am simply trying to perhaps warn people that the ramifications can be terrible on you and your health and relationships. It is not something a T nor a client should take lightly. Memory is tricky.

Psychology and knowing why things are certain ways is not as black and white as people want it to be. For example, abuse is not the only explanation for what you seem to be dealing with.

You may be afraid of intimacy because of something that occurred when you were an infant. For example: there are some developmental theories that claim that infants who had good parents, but who might have had colic or who might have needed *more* than the average infant, develop traits of borderline personality disorder or develop fear of closeness or fear of abandonment, IF the parents could not meet every need the infant had. Some infants are hardwired to begin with and when the good parents are not *good-enough* for that infants needs, things get developmentally confused. So maybe a mother could not respond every time a baby with colic needed to be soothed, because maybe the mother had migraines. Not a *bad parent* but not meeting the soothing needs of the infant. The infant learns something from this...perhaps the infant learns "my needs can't be met, I am not worthy, no-one can help me, etc, etc." These feelings continue because they become part of the development of the child.

The parents weren't *bad parents*, just that the infant by nature needed more.

I also tried to explain why memory varies so widely in my other post. Science has shown that stage of development, language, the influence of mother's behavior and interaction, and discussion of events all effect memory. Culture as well. Furthermore, things such as physical illness, stress, anxiety, depression, etc all affect a person's ability to recall events.

All I am trying to say is be weary because once you go down that path of "believing" you were abused without collaboration, it is hard to come back and you could ruin years of your life by looking for memories instead of dealing with the feelings associated with your current issues.

Interesting discussion, that deserves alot more attention, but I am stepping out at this point, because it seems to becoming "offensive" to many.

[hangingon]

Tollhouse,
You don't have to step out. I don't think what your saying is becoming offensive. It's just a very controversal subject....and as you know, with that comes many different opions, which is perfectly ok.

The problem with memory is that science will never prove it right or wrong because even the best neuroscientist can't open a brain, look in, and see a single thought; and unfortunately that is never going to happen.

So memory.....very....very...very tricky. All we can do is base it on experience, and in that case, we are all sooooo different individually, different backgrounds, enviornments, temperaments, ect.....this plays so much into it. We can all experience the same incident totally differently.

I think it's a good topic, just a very touchy one

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by Tollhouse

My point of what I wrote is that without collaboration, a memory can never be assumed true.

I think you mean "corroboration." (Collaboration is when people create something together; corroboration is when facts are verified with evidence). Sorry, it's my inner English teacher coming out!

Memory of all type changes over time. What is important is not the memory, but the processing of the feelings.

I think this is very true. For me, corroboration has not been specific--no one in my family has come out and said, "Yes, X, Y, and Z was done to you." In many cases, it was just me alone with abuser, so no one but me and him can say what happened. However, I have had family members agree that violence happened. For me, that is sufficient verification of my memories.

I think you make a good point that therapists have an obligation not to lead clients in directions they would not otherwise go. I have heard of therapists who, whether inadvertently or not, suggest a history of abuse before the client does. It is a great disservice to the client, who I would expect will come to doubt their memories of anything at all.

Memory is a complex thing, isn't it?

Did I post that? I don't think so. Confused!