session and spirituality in therapy

I had a good session today. As always I try to cover a lot of ground. Im not sure why. Maybe Im trying to be efficient so I can get through the week with all bases comvered

I am SO glad to have my daughter back from overseas. I was talking about how I love her, but I dont understand how she loves me. I know why she does, but I dont understand her feelings of love toward her mother. I cant relate to it though I adore her. She came home and just wanted to BE and to be home. She did nothing for 3 days but lie in my bed and watch tv and snuggle with me! She was overstimulted and burnt out even though she had the experience of her life. On a feeling level, I dont understand her craving for her mother. Or what that feels like to her. I tried in therapy to relate it to my feelings for my grandmother, but it didnt exactly fit. I feel sorry for the little girl that never had this experience. That her feelings for her mother were fear, anger, detachment, etc. I try to honor and cherish my d's feelings for me, but I do wish I had this experience to relate to.

We talked about the steps Im taking to clear up my financial mess and my search for a job. And that I feel like a child playing dress-up in a grown-up world. She did say that there are two things going on. That I have to get my "sea legs" back and I will feel more comfortable as I build on the skills I have once Ive been back for a while. And feeling like a child because of trauma. Feeling sort of "different"than other people b/c I assume everyone else has/had a happy family.

We also talked about something else. I dont quite know how to describe it. We were tallking about places and times I have felt "home" and have felt safe. I couldnt come up with much and then I remembered something. Last night I got an email- it was a "spiritual" thing and I clicked on a link to a place I had been in europe that was an amazing spiritual place and I went there in '89 and '90 to pray. I loved this place and I felt very home there and I started to cry. I surprised myself when I started to cry. I think there is more to this and I need to explore my feelings about this place further. We talked briefly about how I felt there and then ftt changed the subject. I was kind of shook up and we went on to something else and I came back to the subject of this place and we did talk about it again briefly. I didnt feel like she "got it" about the significance of this place for me. I cant even remember what she changed the subject to. But quickly it went to a "smiley" here and now topic and I felt like this was much more significant to me and whatever deeper feelings it might be pointing to. I am disappointed that this opportunity was lost as I felt at the time it would have been good to go there at that moment then.

I had brought this place up once before to her but in a very superficial way. When I brought it up in therapy with desk-t she had thought I was being self-destructive as it is in a less safe part of the world. She also didnt get it at all. I WANT to be understood about this and I just havent been. Maybe Im presenting it in a way that makes it seem like a non-issue. I dont know.

Im not sure what to do. I could bring it up next week, I guess. Has anybody ever brought spirituality up in therapy as a therapy issue? Not that the spirituality itself is something to take apart in therapy, but why I felt the way I did there and why I was drawn to this place and experience is for me a definite therapy issue.

Im not sure how to get myself to be understood on this topic.

((((((((BlueMoon)))))))))) All we have is today. It is awesome that you spent time with your daughter that was so precious. Even if you could not relate to her emotions, it sounds like you were being a mommy and able to give her what she needed. And that is just so awesome.

With spirituality, I have brought it up with my T. I follow the Native American path and so it impacts therapy because there are times when I need to say "Yesterday a Stone told me to listen for his song." If I say that to someone who does not understand the Native American path, they may want to lock me up. But this is not a part of any psychotic symptom, it is a religious belief system. My T happens to also follow the Native American path a bit and so it was a perfect match in my case.

My t and I talk about my spirituality and faith with a fair amount of regularity. In fact, just today I was talking about how angry I am with God right now. It has so much to do with this feeling of futility I'm dealing with currently.

Thanks WePow and Farmergirl- I am thinking a lot about both of your responses to me. I have always been a spiritual person and I think I was a spiritual child but not in a clear enough way that could have helped me.

WePow- I love that you and your T are somewhat on the same page in terms of spiritual beliefs. And that she understands where you are coming from. I think if anyone who really didnt understand where I was coming from would hear what I truly (think I) believe they would be confused. But I am not confused and I understand where I am coming from. I think T didnt understand the impact that the different things I have done and believed had on me. And the impact of this particular place on me. I dont know if I should push it and try. It isnt the first time I have tried to explain it in therapy. I think it may have to do with a therapists attitude but Im not sure. It should, should it?

I know for sure the deep meaning this had for me and when I started to cry I dont know why she listened for a bit and then lightened it up by going to a "happy" subject. There is a lot there underneath the powerful reaction I have had to that part of my life. That might be a good sentence to say.

About my daughter- I feel like I can breathe easy now that she is back. I love being her mommy, but I cannot relate to having a mommy like me. We talked about that today in the session. How it would have been nice for me to have a mommy like me. And especially a daddy like my H is to my kids. He hugs them without the undertones I experienced with my father. He cares without expecting anything back. I cant imagine grwoing up that way. And who I would have been if I had. therapy really digs into the painful stuff.

I don’t know what I’d do if spirituality wasn’t part of my therapy. In fact, when I was interviewing Ts, I made it known that finding my way spiritually was just as important as all the other reasons for being there. The cool thing is that the T I ended up with was the one I didn’t think would be able to go there on spirituality. In reality, she’s been perfect for it.

An after-thought: I really believe that my survival ability was a form of spirituality, although not recognized at the time, not recognized until recently. In fact, my mind viewed the trauma as punishment by God. MT,MT,MT... My childhood church taught that if one didn't scream during rape, then she had sinned against God... End of MT,MT,MT. How could one truly heal from trauma and it not be about spirituality?

((((((((((((((((((((((((( farmergirl )))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Blue, maybe this feeling that you have when you think about how your daughter sees you as a mom is just the blank that you still have to fill in for your own mom? Like your feelings there are still disconnected from you??

I think if something is important to you, then it is important enough to bring up in therapy as much as you need to. Sometimes Ts don't "get it" because they are not us (I know-duh on that thought). So we have to say "T, I really need to discuss this issue again." We're paying them, so they can't object. I understand about missing the opportunity when it happens. That happens to me a lot. It's fleeting, and T or I somehow miss it, sometimes because she doesn't pick up on it, or sometimes because I'm afraid.

My guess is that it's more to do with feeling safe and geting your needs met rather than the particlular location. That's what your focus can be on. Spiritual environments can affect us deeply and provide us some of what was missing. I feel like I'm part of one big family when I think about religion and spirituality. It gives me comfort. Could it be the same for you?

So, I would bring it up again, and even ask ftt why she changed the subject? She has been such a good T that I can't believe she won't "go where you need to go".

(((BlueMoon)))

Allowing my spirituality to emerge was a huge part of my therapy, and IMHO very important to my overall healing. It was very difficult to talk about it at first because I was afraid it would be misinterpreted. Like WePow mentioned, if the T doesn't have the proper frame for 'I was talking to the wind', then I do sound pretty crazy.

Although T does not share my spiritual beliefs, he was open to learning from me, and was never judgemental. I think his non-judgemental approach was significant, because it gave me a safe place to explore my ideas. I often joked with T that talking about my spirituality was like coming out of the closet for me -- something I had kept hidden for years from other people, and something that also had a lot of shame attached to it.

A few final notes for you...
...the place you visited that had such a strong impact on you is forever in your mind. Just like the picture reminded you of that experience, you can also call up that place mentally and go there in a visualization anytime you like.

...You ARE the caring mother for your daughter. You DO give her the sense of safety and just being loved that she needs. Since you can do that for her, that means you can also do that for the little girl inside of you.

Ohh I hate when T doesn't seem to "get it!" This doesn't seem common with Ftt, though, luckily. I bet if you said straight-up, "This is important to me," she would listen and understand. I totally get how spiritual things like this can be so deeply meaningful.. spiritually I am such a mess right now.. I think spirituality is more important to therapy than therapists realize. Therapy can induce such beautiful spiritual awakenings.. also if our spirituality is in chaos we may not do well in therapy, for reasons unknown to us and the T. My religious/spiritual confusion has SO much to do with my low self-esteem and other issues.

Anyway, I think spirituality belongs in therapy, and I think therapists that disagree with that are missing an essential puzzle piece.

I'm so glad your daughter is home, Blue.. And glad you are able to give her the comfort and love your mom couldn't give to you.

((((((((((blue + dot))))))))))

i'm so glad to hear your daughter is home safe and sound and had such a wonderful trip. i'm sure she'll remember it for the rest of her life. it's interesting because it sounds a bit like your talking about the spiritual place you visited. traveling can be a life-changing experience.

i have talked a lot about spiritual things in therapy. like you mentioned to me it is much easier when it's with someone on the same page as you spiritually because they just tend to "get it". i have to give my former T credit though. she was very open and accepting of anything i wanted to talk about. at times it was a bit frustrating in that i had to explain so much because it was a bit foreign to her and one time early on i mentioned something that i've experienced and she said she knew what i was talking about but it turned out she really didn't. this was a significant thing and so it was kind of disappointing for me to discover that her understanding was referring to something else. not her fault though.

ftt sounds like a great T so i think if you bring it up again she will be more than willing to listen and explore the issue with you. she may not totally get it but i'm sure she'll be accepting and understanding. unless she's just completely uncomfortable with spiritual things i think she'll be able to be supportive to you. you can always talk to us too.

chris have you heard of the book angry conversations with God: a snarky but authentic spiritual memoir? it's really quite funny and the premise is a woman who is struggling with her relationship with God takes him to therapy for couples counseling.

I'll have to look for that. Just the description made me laugh. Thanks. I needed that.

It sounds to me as if ftt may have religious/spiritual issues of her own. In that case, she may have changed the subject because she wanted to stay halfway available to you instead of having the rest of the session turn into therapy for her.

I once took a music class where we got to listen, among many other things, to an old motet, a well-known prayer set to music. My first reaction, just to the title, was: Not only was it obviously religious music, at a time in my life when I was working to separate myself from religion of every sort; I happened to have grown up in a denomination hostile to the one whose prayer it was. OK, I thought, let's humor the good people, listen to their silly old motet, and move on to better things.

Listening to the actual piece, though, I found that my experience of the music was nothing like I'd been expecting. It turned out to have a strong emotional pull for me and I could easily imagine someone choosing to put up with the rest of the church just to be around something like that.

The timeline suggests that I must've been going to therapy regularly when I had this experience but I don't remember saying anything to my T about it. I'm sure I didn't mention it to any of my friends, then or for years afterwards, because I would've expected them to freak out and try to rescue me from the clutches of organized religion. Even now, it feels like the kind of thing I'd want to discuss in detail only if and when it seemed directly relevant to some issue I was working on.

Where are you with looking at it some more anyway? With ftt if she turns out to be willing after all, or even here?

Sort of the same way I just presented my non-issue?

Spotted, your post is so helpful to me and really stuck me. I never really thought anyone felt the same way I do. The "spiritual stuff" (I dont know what else to call it) has been an important part of my path, but I also havent talked about in therapy because I never felt like a T would really get where I was coming from. Id be misinterpreted and maybe dismissed.

Has your T ever talked about his spiritual beliefs? I dont know what my Ts spiritual beliefs are and Id be afraid I was crossing some boundary to ask her. I also feel like taking about it in therapy (or even here) is like coming out of the closet. And I have had some shame associated with it except for with people who might have felt similarly.

That is true. I dont do that now because it makes me so so so sad that I will never be able to go back for many reasons. It just wont happen so I when I think about it there it feels like grieving. I felt so sad when I was looking at the pictures online. I was clicking around and saw pictures of almost all of the places I had been. I have never even considered recalling or visualizing to ground myself. It is a good idea. I think if I did Id get past grieving and be able to go back in my mind for the peace I felt there.

Your right. It is so powerful to think of that. It makes me sad, too. That is what ftt says to me as well. I can nurture the little girl inside of me, but it feels strange. I think the way I live now is nurturing (more or less) to my inner self, though when I think of nurturing little Blue, I still feel like she doesnt deserve it.

As I am writing I am thinking of the ways I an not nurturing to her and what I would say and do with my teens if they were acting this way. I push myself, I dont take time for myself all day and rush and rush and run run run all day long. When I do take time, it is the LAST thing of the day and if Im tired, it gets cut short. It just isnt a priority. I push and push and do all the "right" things. I dont delegate enough of the responsibility to my H and kids. I do some, but not nearly enough. And when I find a job, I wont be able to do it all. That would be a nurturing thing to do.

Jexa- I think you are so right about the spiritual part of us is an important part of therapy. It isnt just "ideas" but I think it is related to how we feel about ourselves. I think it is for me. I really dont talk about it because I dont think any T Ive seen understands what an important part of me this is. Even if my experience of things spiritual have gone around and around and change all the time. And then I sort of integrate bits and pieces of this and that into this mish mash of a whole. And even then I get confused. OY! It makes me believe that a T would think this is a silly non-issue.

((((Bloom))) I know how important this is to you, too. Im sorry about that experience with T. Maybe she just wanted to be there with you and understand. I cant imagine how you explained things to her. I amn thinking as I am reading what words would I use? How can I explain? And parts of it sound just plain weird. I have enough experience with Ts dismissing me and jumping off of the subject.

I wonder if she is umcomfortable with spiritual or religious subjects. Hmmmm.....Well, I know there is always you all here and you will understand me (or try to....)

That book sounds funny!

It could very well be. I often ignore my instincts and that is my instinct, too. SHe might have some feelings about religion or maybe some feelings about some of the things I have talked about with her.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I think when it comes to music, especially very beautiful music that brings up emotion, it can really convey the beauty of spiritual/religious feelings. I have had this experience with music, too. I had this experience with the music in the place I visited a long time ago. The music there was something that instantly made me feel peaceful, safe and loved. I havent heard it in years, but Im sure I could google and find it. In a way, it reminds me of who I am.

What do you think your T at the time would have said? Do you think he/she would have considered this an unimportant issue? Something to take the focus off your "real" stuff?

As I write I realize I need to bring this all up as my "real stuff." It is very real for me. Im reading now yet another book by Thich Nhat Hahn about the way/teachings of the Buddah. This would seem like it has nothing at all to do with this other experience. But I see the connection. I just dont know if I would be albe to describe how. Or how to describe the connection to my history and family issues. There are a lot of things going on at once with this subject.

I would love to explore this here or with ftt. I love this subject. I think it could open a can of worms on a public forum, though!

The way you presented your non-issue was pretty darn good. Why do you think you didnt tell your T?

((((((((((Blue)))))))))

Spirituality is very important to me, and is important to my therapy. My T is very actively involved in his religion, and he is just a very spiritual person. I am not a member of his religion, but I often ask him to tell me stories from it...because I like them, and because I think spiritual stories can be a powerful way to explore what it is to be human. He knows ALL of the stories, and can always come up with just the right one.

T is very respectful of my spiritual path, and even though it is not the same as his, there is so much common ground. Sometimes I tell him stories from my spiritual path

Blue, ftt has always been so open to letting you take the lead. Can you tell her how important this is to you, and ask if you can explore it together? Even if she isn't interested in spiritual things, she could still help you wonder and explore and question and discover. I have been through many things that my T hasn't been through, but he is still able to be "in" those things with me, and to walk with me on my journey.

Yay for your daughter being home. That makes me smile.

I think this would be a great opening with T. Let her know that you have been thinking about spirituality and you would like to talk about it, but that brings up some fear for you. I would say, 'give T a chance'.

My T never did, and I never asked because I also felt it was maybe too personal. It wasn't so important to me that T believed the same as me, but that T was open to hearing my ideas. Growing up there was one set of acceptable religious beliefs. Every day was a lesson in how to believe, and there was little room for personal exploration. Since there was not room for me to explore this as a child, I'm guessing it became important for me to explore it as an adult.

I was terrified that T would stop liking me, or think I was crazy. We spent a lot of time discussing my fears, and then I slowly worked up to sharing my ideas and experiences with him.

You don't have to talk about all the details with T, just start with what is stopping you from talking about it. You might be surprised at how open your T is.

I'm guessing this place has a spiritual connection for you, and that part of the joy of the place is feeling that side of you more strongly. Grieving makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure you are grieving the physical loss of the place (you can visualize it). Perhaps the grief is about the spiritual connection.

I used to really dislike grieving - it felt like a sign that I was doing worse. But, then I realized that it is the final step in healing. You've done the hard work of denial and anger and fear about X topic, and all of a sudden you have a new perspective...and you realize it is sad you lived your life without X in it. Acknowledging that loss opens up space for healing, and that is a very good thing.

(I don't mean to push you in any way, just to give you some of my own thoughts on grieving so that when you are ready it doesn't have to be such a scary idea.)

That belief that litte Blue doesn't deserve nurturing, is not your belief. It just does not fit with the rest of what I know about you. You picked it up somewhere (where is not really that important), but it is not coming from the true you. That means it can be released and replaced with a belief of your *own* choosing.

I hope one day you can take little Blue on a tour of your special place. I bet she would love to experience it with big Blue as her guide.

It seems to me that without coming from some sort of spiritual place my therapy might seem disconncted. And I would wonder why I was doing this at all. I love that T tells you stories. When I hear/read stories it allows me to open up to a point of view I had not thought of before.

Story: I read that when 10 different people look at a cloud there are 10 different points of view about what that cloud looks like. And though we then see the other person's point of view when they explain how they see the cloud, the truth is, the cloud isnt really any of those things, what we are "seeing" is really "points of view." I like this story as it reminds me of the reason that "openness" is all we really have.

I like that! I love it! There is so much common ground among spiritual beliefs. I guess my fear about bringing it up is that I will find that ftt doesnt understand me.

I can say exactly that. I am going to print out this thread. I think she would be open to allowing me to go there. I really, really wonder if she is spiritual at all. I wonder not in a curious way about her, rather to see if we have a common ground for therapy. I really think ftt is that way, that she can "be" with me in things even though she hasnt been through certain things herself. We were talking about addicitons and she shared that therapists today do not necessarily have to have had an addiciton to guide someone in recovery. I was saying that in rehab the therapists shared their own stories of recovery. We were talking about this b/c there is an alcohol rehab job for a nurse (but not in my immediate area). I said I didnt apply b/c it was far and I didnt know if I could facilitate groups etc and do all of the things the job required. She thought I could and I should apply, get some more training and possibly share that I have been in recovery since 1980 (which is 30 years!). OY! She thought my life now with H and kids speaks for itself in terms of recovery and I might do very well in a job like that and she could "supervise" me if my stuff was triggered in group. I dont know. I am considering the things she said, but it is too far for me now with my youngest kids here in this area in school.

It IS such a relief to have her here And now do 30 loads of laundry

I've talked about my religious beliefs a little bit in therapy, but i've been hesitant to share too much because my religion is one that is often made fun of and/or called a cult. I haven't wanted to share with her what i believe and then have her discourage me from it. However, my t has been accepting about it and has even encouraged certain aspects of it at times when she felt it could help strengthen me and assist in my healing.

The only time in 10 years of working with her that i sensed a bit of negativity/concern about my religion from her was when i was talking about a certain anxiety that i personally have (that relates to a specific doctrine). She was concerned about the effect this anxiety was having on me. However, most of the people i know that follow my belief system do not have undue anxiety about this issue. So i believe that, for me, this anxiety is related to my overall problems with anxiousness/worry in general (I have GAD), more than it relates to the religious doctrine itself.

I have talked to my t about how my insecure attachment with my parents and others has made it a challenge for me to feel emotionally connected/intimate with my heavenly father, and to trust Him more. I've found the two issues are related for me. I think that if one has had a secure, nurturing relationship with a human father, then they know how it feels inside. Then, it would not be difficult to imagine this feeling of connectedness/safety/trust in a spiritual being, just in greater measure. But not having that initial experience as a platform, i think it is more difficult to achieve that sense of emotional intimacy. It's something i plan to work on.

Religion and spirituality is a big part of my therapy. That is one area we really connect on. Sometimes we say a prayer at the end of a really tough session.

I think if you both agree on spirituality it can be a huge asset to therapy.

Xtree

true indeed very very true

Spotted- Ive been thinking and thinking about your post to me today. I was trying to imagine myself saying that to ftt. I think I could. That I want to talk about spirituality and the different things I have tried and been through but I am afraid of sounding silly or that this part of me will be dismissed as not important. Or not important to therapy.

I would imagine that would be very difficult and stifling to grow up with rigid religious beliefs. And that it is a relief to explore the possibilities. I grew up without any spirituality at all. Religion was something to ridicule. Even the thought of God was something to ridicule. I think my parents preferred to worship themselves and people who didnt worship superficial things were silly. Yuck.

This seems like a really important topic for me in therapy. Like the financial stuff, its a room that needs some cleaning up. I feel kind of "tangled" with feelings and beliefs and my families attitudes and my attitudes. I think you are right, Spotted, I can tell her that this does bring up some fear. I didnt think so, but now I do think so. There is more below the surface.

I am thinking about this. A lot. I was able to feel this side of me there. Maybe part of the appeal for me was that it was so far away and I had to actually get that physically far away to allow myself to be myself. I mean, if the place had been aroiund the block I would have gone there, but the difference between a place like that and NYCity was probably more than just spiritual.

I think you are right. I am grieving for those things I didnt have or wasnt able to give myself and I feel a loss. Since the time I have been there I go through periods where I think about it more. I dont know what thats about. And right now Im thinking about it. Maybe because I am in a more spiritual place the last couple of months. And when I got that email it opened it up again. I usually read the emails but dont click on the lninks. For some reason, I clicked on the link and felt so sad. I miss it there so much. I fantasize about taking my kids there. It will never happen. Its not where we are at and its far and expensive.

But I am thinking now about the idea of grieving for other things I couldnt give myself or before. I feels sometimes like a lost life. Its not that I am not living now and giving all that I can to my marriage (well, maybe) and my kids, but I DO wonder what things might have been like had I not had to go through such a messy life. I regret so many financial things that I did not have to do. Though ftt pointed out that I did what I knew. I just so wish I had been taught how to take care of myself and my finances. No one ever taught me anything or even brought that subject up. I think its the first time I ever really felt so sad about that. Sad in a way that doesnt blame me. Just sad that it was that way.

I do want to believe that I deserve nurturing. When I was reading this it made me teary. I would love to take little Blue on a tour of this place. I never, ever thought of that. I think I would just break down in tears taking her there.
Thank you, Spotted.

(((((Peaches))))) I am so sorry that the religion that you love is something that people make fun of. That is sad and I know that kind of shame and hiding. I feel like that is part of my hesitation, too. I dont know enough about ftt to share this stuff and I am not sure I can ask her personal quesitons about her spirituality. Isnt that too personal? I wouldnt know how to word that.

I am convinced that when your connection to a fatherly or motherly figure is secure (secure-ish anyway) that it is more likely that one would be able to connect with a motherly/fatherly God. This has been a huge obstacle for me. I dont trust and I go in and out of trusting and I KNOW it is related to my lack of trust on all levels. Even channeling some kind of loving energy. I can work on it for myself, but for a loving higher being/energy/God? Concerned with me? I dunno.