[sittingatwatersedge]

From another thread, recent post >>> T has said I seek out people in my relationships who will treat me like my mother did (give me no love, etc.) in an unconscious effort to master the problem and fix what happened in my childhood. That is how I came to be with my H. <<<

I have seen this sort of thing in several books (Claudia Black, John Bradshaw, don't remember who else). they say, somehow we know that other people will embody the worst aspects of our parent(s) and that's why we are attracted to them, and end up in the same cycle that we had before.

with respect, I must say that I fnd it very difficult to buy this. We are each supposed to have some sort of sensor which says, whoa, I can tell that your mother/father was abusive and you will be too, so I choose you? I can tell that he/she was emotionally incapable, or alcoholic, or addicted, or whatever, so I choose you? naaahhhh......

I've known too many adult children of alcoholics who have refused to have that scene - in themselves and in their relationships - that theory doesn't seem to hold up.

My T just went to a training in IMAGO (?) therapy, which is a kind of couples therapy. He said that in the training, they said that we subconsciously choose someone who we think will help us resolve/work out our issues from childhood - but that it never quite works out the way we think it's going to....

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

We are each supposed to have some sort of sensor which says, whoa, I can tell that your mother/father was abusive and you will be too, so I choose you? I can tell that he/she was emotionally incapable, or alcoholic, or addicted, or whatever, so I choose you? naaahhhh......

How well do we trust our sensors? If we know nothing else than what we grew up with, how can we tell what is good and not good for us?

[Sannah]

Interesting question........I think it is also not so much what attracts us but what repels us too. When you grow up around dysfunction and then have low self worth, being around healthy people is painful. You can hide out in plain sight around dysfunctional people because they don't see you. Healthy people look right at you and see you. If you have low self esteem this is painful to endure. You have to work through it though because being around healthy people is half of your battle conquored.

The other part of it is projection too I think. Some people have made me into someone that i was definitely not. They had their own world and put me into it and misread me completely. (So you can place people into your world which you can shape in your own mind who they are).

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Some people have made me into someone that i was definitely not. They had their own world and put me into it and misread me completely.

Did they convince you?

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Did they convince you?

Previously, before I got better and when I didn't have a strong identity, you bet! I was putty to be molded in their hands. Now, nope.........

[hangingon]

I have also found myself being attracted to people who were not always the proper fit for me.

I'm not quite sure if it's and uncounscious attempt, or due the fact that I always had to be the grown up in a sense and help my younger siblings, and would often parent my mom. I think that is part of the bigger issue when seeking out others, It puts me in my comfort zone because it's what I know.

However, I am learning it's not healthy because it leaves me lacking for what I need in a relationship as well. I still feel selfish when it comes to being asked about my needs, as if I don't have any. I feel like mine are not as important as others. I actually said to my T once that I can handle not having my needs met, others can't, which is why I feel the need to help. This is something I really need to work on in therapy.

I think it all boils down to my need to rescue others, because that was something that never happened for me.

Hangingon

[searchingmysoul]

Sittingatwatersedge wrote: "with respect, I must say that I fnd it very difficult to buy this. We are each supposed to have some sort of sensor which says, whoa, I can tell that your mother/father was abusive and you will be too, so I choose you? I can tell that he/she was emotionally incapable, or alcoholic, or addicted, or whatever, so I choose you? naaahhhh......

I've known too many adult children of alcoholics who have refused to have that scene - in themselves and in their relationships - that theory doesn't seem to hold up."


I think this is great to think about...Just like anything, nothing is true for everyone...And I believe that to be true in this case.

However, I don't think the books entirely wrong either. Over the years my attraction to people in relationships has changed but has often been somewhat reflective of the dynamics in my childhood. Some have been the mirror image and some have been (outwardly) the opposite.

My own progression in relationships has been somewhat like the books suggest. In my first romantic relationships I chose people who were very dysfunctional...I began to not want relationships like that but ended up chosing a very long term relationship with someone who was completely emotionally unavailable (another dynamic in my fam). Throughout this relationship I was in therapy. Eventually it ended, by my doing, and probably because in a lot of ways I had gotten much healthier. Now I am married, and although this relationship is much different than those I previously mentioned, I believe that my DH and I have wounds in many of the same places...Probably the biggest difference is that we are really willing to work on them...

Granted this has just been my experience in relationships so take it with a grain of salt. However, I have read many of the books on relationships and continuance of family dynamics, and for me the reading has rung somewhat true.

Have the adult children of alcoholics that you know been through or had treatment (therapy, 12 steps, alanon, CoDA, etc)? I think therapy and/or treatment, in the least, can be very informative of the relationships we choose...

[internettie]

I've been in a marriage for 20 years now that has had me fighting old battles constantly. Growing up my dad had another family (another woman and other children) and I've always had this 'other family' thing that I just can't seem to beat yet. I think I chose my husband because he was married with kids when I met him (although separated from his wife) and that was 'familiar' to me. I have felt like I have to compete for attention and never measure up (definitely my issue, not his). I'm even like that with my friends - sometimes I get jealous when they choose other friends or even their own families 'over me'. Argh! I do however stay away from most people who remind me of my mom. That was at times a torturous relationship and I have no desire to repeat that part of my past.

[madisgram]

a good question you posed. reagrdless of fact or fiction with these situations i can share what i did that nipped this "little" problem in the bud so i didn't have to go down that road again.
i was loved as a child. i never saw violence in my home growing up. after a very sad event in my adult life i met a man that i thought had the same values as me. turns out he didn't and i was violently abused. i got the POW syndrone...thought it was my fault that he would get so mad at me and i needed to comply, ad nauseum. i lost "self". when i was finally able to leave him..long story...i went to a T and said i don't ever want this to happen to me again. what am i doing unconsciously to attract such a person? what are the "signals" i need to change?, etc. we worked on it. i now know the red flags of abusers. i haven't had to repeat this with any more men. i know i am not at fault. i am a strong woman.
i'm grateful i had the sense to seek out help so my life didn't have to get recycled again. if my story helps one person that reads this then i'm successfully doing what i've been doing since my therapy on this....helping the next person not having to be "recycled" by sharing what a good therapist and a willing client can accomplish.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

From another thread, recent post >>> T has said I seek out people in my relationships who will treat me like my mother did (give me no love, etc.) in an unconscious effort to master the problem and fix what happened in my childhood. That is how I came to be with my H. <<<

...somehow we know that other people will embody the worst aspects of our parent(s) and that's why we are attracted to them, and end up in the same cycle that we had before.

with respect, I must say that I fnd it very difficult to buy this. We are each supposed to have some sort of sensor which says, whoa, I can tell that your mother/father was abusive and you will be too, so I choose you?

I'm the person who you quoted, so I'll respond. It may not be true for you, sittingatwatersedge, but it has been true for me, so it can't be discounted outright. I can't tell you how many relationships for me have followed the same pattern. I like the spin my T gave this, that I am doing this is an unconscious attempt to change things and get it right. (Note he didn't say everyone does this--you seemed to suggest that the theory must work for all people in order for it to be valid--but after working with me for a while, he knew this interpretation fit me.) That is what I am doing with my current relationship--changing the pattern at long last. No, I don't think we sense that other people have had abusive parents, and that wasn't part of my post. But we know from interacting with people if they make us feel the same way as all those previous relationships. It's not that hard to detect. I don't think I went out and consciously chose people who treated me badly, but I was somehow comfortable in such relationships, because they felt familiar. For me, it's been very powerful to finally break the pattern. At last! After all these years! I will never do that again. I don't even feel physically capable of that anymore. I said that to my T the other day, and he was so pleased, he just kind of beamed. I think our T's do take pride when their work has been successful. sittingatwatersedge, it sounds like this interpretation does not fit you (you don't "buy" it). One explanation will never fit all people, and it sounds like you're one of them for whom this one does not fit. Keep seeking what works and fits for you. There is no "one size fits all." Each of our lives (and therapy) takes a different path.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by Sannah

.... I think it is also not so much what attracts us but what repels us too. When you grow up around dysfunction and then have low self worth, being around healthy people is painful. You can hide out in plain sight around dysfunctional people because they don't see you. Healthy people look right at you and see you. If you have low self esteem this is painful to endure. You have to work through it though because being around healthy people is half of your battle conquored.

I ran into someone today who looked at me with eyes like searchlights and I felt like running for cover. Sannah you've articulated something that I've never been able to put into coherent thought. thanks!!

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by sunrise

It may not be true for you, sittingatwatersedge, but it has been true for me, so it can't be discounted outright. I can't tell you how many relationships for me have followed the same pattern. I like the spin my T gave this, that I am doing this is an unconscious attempt to change things and get it right. (Note he didn't say everyone does this--you seemed to suggest that the theory must work for all people in order for it to be valid--but after working with me for a while, he knew this interpretation fit me.)

a) I didnt discount it outright, that's why i brought up the question
b) I like yr Ts "spin" on it too
c) no it doesn;t have to be valid for all in order to be valid - it wasn't my theory in the first place - go argue with John Bradshaw etc. I believe I said that I didn't accept this a general rule; they do. They use words like "in most cases" or "almost always" and that is what I was questioning.

the question I ask is, how would we know that that person we're seeing embodies the worst in our parent when people who marry after 3 yrs even hardly know each other? and if we did know that that person was going to be abusive or alcoholic, wouldn't we reasonably run for the hills?

[kim_johnson]

in the beginning (roughly) there was freud. And freud spoke about the unconscious 'censor' whose activities would result in rather devious expression of the unconscious in such things as symbolic dreams and slips of the tongue and in unconscious ways of relating to others...

the devious unconscious 'censor' has since received a significant critique such that not many theorists credit that anymore. simply speaking, there is no such thing as the little devious homunculus (little man) in the brain pulling the strings on what becomes conscious, how and why, and in what form.

that being said... individuals who have been abused are more likely to go on to abuse others and / or to attach to abusive others than individuals who haven't been abused. individuals who were raised in an environment where their attachment figures abuse alcohol are more likely to go on to abuse alcohol and tolerate the alcohol abuse of significant others than those who weren't raised in such an environment.

as always: the claim isn't that EVERY SINGLE individual who was in that position will INEVITABLY end up in the latter position. the claim isn't that EVERY SINGLE individual who is in the latter position was previously in the former one. it is simply the claim that ON AVERAGE that seems to be the case. not inevitable or unalterable but: more likely.

my father was fairly emotionally distant and i longed to feel closer to him. he... left me. now... i tend to feel attached to people who are fairly emotionally distant. the thought is not that i actually want to repeat the trauma of having them leave me... the thought is rather that i seek out the similarity because it is known and familiar (and hence more comfortable in the sense of being predictable to me) and because... i desperately want a different ending. one thought on why we re-experience trauma is that we seek a different ending... one that leaves us with a sense of mastery and competence. instead... of those traumatic feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness that are so traumatic to us. the latter situation... doesn't have to be an exact match (e.g., parents who abuse alcohol might not manifest in seeking out a partner who abuses alcohol). rather... the relationship may be more abstract (e.g., parents who abuse alcohol might manifest in seeking out a partner who exhibits other qualities of being distracted, emotionally numb and non-responsive etc etc etc).

[sittingatwatersedge]

Kim_Johnson - thanks for your thoughtful post. about this
>> individuals who have been abused are more likely to go on to abuse others <<
No doubt about it, the probability is there. same for children of alcoholics

but about this >>> and / or to attach to abusive others than individuals who haven't been abused. <<<
Sorry if I am slow here, but why should that be? It seems that (per Bradshaw or Black) most people from abusive backgrounds say something to themselves like, I grew up in Hell and I miss it so I will create my own. They make it out to be practically inevitable, and I find that very discouraging. You cannot change the other person, only yourself; if you link up with another abusive person, not only do you still have your past to battle, you now have a new lifelong fight on your hands. Great.
The idea that it's practically futile to resist/avoid such a choice is (to me) extremely depressing, so I guess I still argue with it.

The idea of a survivor seeking out a partner who will be abusive is just repellent to me. The best I can do is imagine that somehow we unconsciously identify someone who has been through the same things as we, and maybe we are looking for a compadre, another soul with a true sympathy born of knowledge.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

in the beginning (roughly) there was freud. And freud spoke about the unconscious 'censor' whose activities would result in rather devious expression of the unconscious in such things as symbolic dreams and slips of the tongue and in unconscious ways of relating to others...

the devious unconscious 'censor' has since received a significant critique such that not many theorists credit that anymore. simply speaking, there is no such thing as the little devious homunculus (little man) in the brain pulling the strings on what becomes conscious, how and why, and in what form.

I disagree completely with this. I think censorship is paramount in mental illness and in our lives in general. Of course no literal little man, but censorship, yes. At least for me it is quite obvious.

[cai23]

Personally I don't know what to believe. My mother was emotionally abused and her father did not spare the rod on her. She married my dad who is the most loving and caring husband and father anyone could wish for. She was emotionally abusive to a point and did not hesitate to physically abuse me (never in front of my dad). I went on to marry a marry a guy who physically and emotionally abusive me, divorce him finally then go into a few other relationship that were emotionally abusive. Now I'm married to a guy who loves me but he's an alcoholic who is emotionally abusive at times.
We have a daughter and I'm scared to death she will follow in my path for some reason. I'm bipolar and have flown off the handle at her plus alcoholism is on both sides of the family which she deals with alot.
Sorry I'm rambling today.........anyway I've put in therapy with a counselor she adores. I'm afraid because of my screw ups, she will be unconciously attarcted to the same kind of men.
Goodness am I'm making any sense this morning....?
cai

[Sannah]

Cai, sounds like your mom took on the role of perpetrator? Some people choose this role because in their minds they either stay a victim or escape being a victim and the only path that they see to escape being the victim is to become the perpetrator.

[kim_johnson]

patchy - yes to censorship (repression etc) no to the little man in the brain :-)

with respect to seeking out abusers... people who work in women's shelters often struggle with why (some) women continually return to their abusive partners. they women often say (or it emerges in conversation) that they simply never have experienced any different, that they don't believe they deserve any different, and they feel uncomfortable about people who treat them more kindly (rather than their husbands who often have predictable triggers).

i agree that the thought that it is inevitable is very depressing indeed for those who have a history. fortunately, the exceptions show us that that is indeed false.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Cai, sounds like your mom took on the role of perpetrator? Some people choose this role because in their minds they either stay a victim or escape being a victim and the only path that they see to escape being the victim is to become the perpetrator.

Hmmm. Provocative and valuable thinking -- or at least, you agree with some of my previous thoughts on the subject .

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

they feel uncomfortable about people who treat them more kindly.

Because of cognitive dissonance? They grew up in their abusive families and, therefore, received the message that they are bad. If they have the belief that they are bad it doesn't jive with being treated nicely. These 2 disparate thoughts cause dissonance which is painful. Either the thought or the situation needs to change to stop the dissonance. They have to develop a better view of themselves in order to feel comfortable being treated nicely.

[searchingmysoul]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

The idea of a survivor seeking out a partner who will be abusive is just repellent to me. The best I can do is imagine that somehow we unconsciously identify someone who has been through the same things as we, and maybe we are looking for a compadre, another soul with a true sympathy born of knowledge.

Maybe the key is unconscious vs conscious? Just thinking further that the issues cannot be resolved/worked through until they are made conscious....

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by searchingmysoul

Maybe the key is unconscious vs conscious? Just thinking further that the issues cannot be resolved/worked through until they are made concious....

Yes, making it conscious will set you free!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

why (some) women continually return to their abusive partners. they women often say (or it emerges in conversation) that they simply never have experienced any different

I think that's it for me. It just felt familiar and like how a relationship was supposed to be because I knew no differently. Like slipping your hand into a comfortable glove that fits perfectly. You just don't question it.

I read one study where they looked at this with online dating. They asked women from abusive backgrounds and those from not abusive backgrounds to choose the online profiles of men who appealed to them most. The women from abusive backgrounds tended to prefer men who had signs in their profiles that they had abusive tendencies. The women who did not come from abusive backgrounds tended to prefer men who showed no signs of being abusive in their profiles. The converse was true also, that abusive men tended to prefer a certain type of woman--those who had been abused before (because the women would put up with it? because the men found it satisfying to abuse people?). The non-abusive men tended to prefer women who had not been abused.

kim:>>> and / or to attach to abusive others than individuals who haven't been abused. <<<
sitting: Sorry if I am slow here, but why should that be? It seems that (per Bradshaw or Black) most people from abusive backgrounds say something to themselves like, I grew up in Hell and I miss it so I will create my own. They make it out to be practically inevitable, and I find that very discouraging.

The Bradshaw/Black view, as you report it, sounds rather all encompassing, as if it applies to all. It really isn't all black and white--there are tendencies, not absolute rules and inevitable outcomes. I also think that most people who follow this pattern do not consciously make a little speech to themselves about how they want to recreate a hell for themselves. I think with most people who follow this pattern, it is unconscious. You just do it because it feels familiar and comfortable, even if it is not healthy. Remember, not all follow this pattern. And other people who initially do follow this course do not keep doing it their whole lives despite the discouraging picture painted by your interpretation of Bradshaw/Black. People can break the pattern. I needed therapy to do this. I wish I had had therapy when I was younger so I could have reached this point sooner. Maybe some people are able to do this without therapy--from reading a book, or because they are smart and strong, or whatever. Good for them! One isn't doomed to repeat the same pattern over and over. There are ways out. It just can be hard to find them sometimes when we feel alone and have known nothing else in life. I think looking at those who haven't ended up stuck in the pattern for life can be inspiring--good role models.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by sunrise

[...] The Bradshaw/Black view, as you report it [...] most people who follow this pattern do not consciously make a little speech to themselves about how they want to recreate a hell for themselves [...] your interpretation of Bradshaw/Black [...]

Sunrise... I give up.