inbuilt sensors...?

I think the key is what things are playing subconsiously that we don't even realize as impacting our relationships. Physical behaviors are easy to navigate. My dad was an alcoholic, I chose an H who rarely drinks. Issue avoided NOT! I could see the alcohol issue but not the REALLY more problomatic, more subtle issues that my father had. Controlling, power draining, defensiveness, bitterness at the world. I saw and avoided on of the symptoms of my father's problems...not the underlying cause. My H suffers from the same thing, only how it expresses itself is different.

ALICE MILLER, a famed psychotherapist of German-speaking origin has a lot to say about the "CYCLE" of child abuse (all translated to English).

According to Miller's research, the difference between an abused child who grows up to become an abuser or complicit in the cycle of abuse, seems to be the positive presence (or lack thereof) of an "Enlightened Witness":
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php?page=2

In thinking on this topic and how my marriage has a lot of the same problems that I remember my parents had, I realized something else. I think one reason we may end up re-creating a similar control drama is that I respond to problems using the patterns my parents modeled during my childhood. In my case, when my father would get verbally abusive towards my mother, she accepted this behavior and tried to fix herself to better meet what my father wanted. If he directed his abuse towards me, I was told to be repectful, that he really didn't mean what he said, and that wives were to be supportive of their husbands. So as a child I not only witness this behavior but was also instructed that this is what wives are suposed to accept and how to deal with it.

I don't think it's just a case of "survivors" looking for similar abusive relationships. I think it's that we tend to repeat patterns of our early childhood because that is what is familiar to us, on a deep level. So, that can equate to repeating an abusive pattern or not.

The good news is that we recognize an abusive (or dysfunctional) pattern and choose not to repeat it. Just because you have partnered with another survivor doesn't mean you both can't help each other. Recognizing the hurt you've both been through can be a very loving way to live and be together.

Remember when we were kids and we would say, "It takes one to know one?" Well, that can be used in a positive way!

reviving a VERY OLLLLDDDD THREAD

Dear PC folk,
Last week I was telling T what I had been reading since she was away and at one point she said, aha, you are asking about imago therapy and she said this is really big
(I of course too dumb to ask "in the moment' whether she meant it was a big discovery for ME to make (smile), or just that it is a big subject (oh) )

Tree, have you & T ever gone into IMAGO since you originally posted this in January 2009? Any one else have any encounter with Imago therapy and if so would you kindly post some thoughts? Many thanks

Great questions. This is something that I have personally been struggling with recently. I grew up in an alcoholic, abusive family. When I met my husband I was so attracted to him because he did not drink. Now after 5 years of marriage my husband has just started to attend AA and see a drug/alcohol counselor. WHAT HAPPENED?? I purposely chose not to marry an alcoholic. I specifically sought out a man who did not abuse alcohol. I can't help but think what am I doing wrong? Are these men drinking because of something I am or am not doing?

Kacey, maybe you chose someone who seemed familiar?

I kind of have a small case study on this. Dad was a severely abusive alcoholic. Mom was an absent punching bag. They had 7 children who grew up in "little hell". Of the seven 2 have alcohol problems, but have conquered. 6 are happily married in good healthy long term relationships. 2 ended up schizophrenic, but have managed to live decent lives in good marriages. of the 3 girls, 0 married anyone abusive. Of the 4 boys 0 married anyone distant/absent. None of the 7 are in abusive relationships, None of the 7 are abusers.

Yea, I will contend that all 7 of us are screwed up, to varying degrees....but we kind of beat the odds. I wonder why that is?

Interesting. I can see some truth to it. I grew up with a mixed outcome. Mostly the opposite. Maybe other things factor in as well.

Eilleen, there must have been something good or stable in your lives. Was there a grandparent or a school or a church or something that gave you all hope, stability and compassion?

No there honestly wasn't. We had each other though. I was changing my little brothers diapers when I was 4. We are talking cloth diapers with safety pins and rubber pants. lol I don't know why we did so well, I think we were all determined to have a different life. All 7 of us left home by the time we were 18.

Maybe it was your bonds with each other that helped you all then?

I think its not so much on what you achieve on the outside its how you feel in your internal world and no one can know that for sure, though "marriages" appear happy who can tell what goes on behind closed doors? Or perhaps one needs to portray a "contented" front because of what they are running from but in doing that they are not being "real" to themselves? who knows what runs through peoples minds and internal worlds as they sit quitely on a train or lay their heads down on a pillow?

Kacey, perhaps your need to feel its something you done is more about your past growing up in an unpredictable household a child places the locus of control inside themselves, you may believe your husband didnt drink, but perhaps you were so used to not speaking the truth or seeing the truth of things growing up, you unconsciously choose to not see your future husbands drinking that he unconsiously dared you not to see? who knows, what a f**ked up world childhood can be lol

We return you now to the original thread

started Harvile Hendrix' book last night, "Getting the Love You Want" and by the time he got to his premise (imago theory) I put the book down and just sobbed.

It appears that there is no such thing as romantic love between two people. Between parent and child there is love i guess (although not in all cases, and not in mine apparently); between siblings another kind, between friends another kind - but as far as between two adults, no; each one is just compulsively searching for their real loves, their first loves, their parents.

I just find this revolting, and hopeless, and SAD beyond expression. It is so unjust and so intolerable. My father was unstable and violent to the point of murder; my mother was dominating, vindictive, manipulating. I REFUSE to be like her; I REFUSE to believe that I want him back in my life, in any form, who scared the **** out of me as a 3 yr old.

They didn't even want me, much less love me. That's bad enough; but if my DH is only looking for mommy, and not me, well that's that.

I put in a call to T this morning, things are not going well.

This is a very insightful thread!

Melba - I am sorryt hings are not well this AM. Big hugs!

Take pity on him. If.

Well I did say we ARE all screwed up, to varying degrees The fact is that no relationship is without pitfalls. But in general, all but 1 have ended up productive and in long term stable relationships.

Me too. I honestly don't think we HAVE to be like her, and we don't HAVE to marry someone like him. I don't care what the study says, it isn't set in stone.

i see this compulsion being enacted in me, and if it wasnt for pdoc i don't think it would have ever become conscious.

SAWE, to answer your question, my T is a huge fan of IMAGO therapy. He has told me of some of his experiences working with couples and what it's like. I do think there is a lot more to it than "we choose someone to get the love we didn't get from our parents", although at a first glance, it so looks like that, doesn't it?

T has told me in the past that he and I can use imago, because it works for any two people in an intimate relationship. The one thing I've noticed him do is naming my feelings for me. So, I will have my feelings hurt by him, and he will say "you must feel frustrated, and angry, and sad" and just having him GET IT calms me way down. I know that's an imago thing (but not JUST used in imago).

I haven't asked him about the romantic love thing- that is interesting and confusing to me. If we ever emerge from the trauma hell we're currently in, I'll ask him what his thoughts are. I'm curious.

I'm sorry it's a hard morning, SAWE. I'm glad you called T.

(((SAWE)))

This is my take on this...

...the human organism is always trying to heal itself. Whether it be from a cut, or a more severe injury like abuse.

The way that the organism 'knows' how to heal something is to find another person who *might* be willing to work through the deficits of our childhood. Not that we are consciously looking for another abuser, but we ARE looking for resolution with the abuser from our childhood. Since the original abuser is rarely available or willing to help us heal, we look for a proxy.

If this goes wrong, we end up repeating the cycle. However, the proxy abuser can serve as a reminder to us that certain things still need healing. In that way, the proxy is offering us a gift in our adult life -- a gift of insight as to what we are willing to put up with/and a questioning of what we think we deserve.

I guess my point is that this idea does not have to sound so negative. I do believe it is the natural result of our body/mind's natural desire to heal. The real question is whether we can become aware and also be forgiving of ourselves for having put up with abusive behavior.

thanks my friend yes... I called her ... but it got more and more amd more upsetting to leave the message, it all seems so big and convoluted and scary.
I do remember telling her I am not sui but I don't want this pain; I don't want therapy any more; and now I look for a call back from her, and why in the world would she call ME.

All of this dysfunction can be worked through. And not everyone had dysfunctional parents so they can make a better choice.