"resolving the "transference""

I keep hearing over and over on these pages about the pain that comes along with "transference" towards the therapist. I hear you and know that pain very very well. It's a miserable time in therapy. Simply miserable.

However, I have negotiated that mine field myself and have come out the other side better for it. There is no pain anymore, just comraderie, trust and peace between my therapist and me. Well, at first, it was just a "cease fire" agreement that eventually became permanent.

I'm not a know it all, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, I'm just trying to alleviate the suffering I hear on these boards, so I thought I would give you some of the tips that really helped me to move past my own feelings and into some peace.

I've come to understand first and foremost that there is no transference. They way I feel is very real. Transference is a construct developed by psychiatrists to describe the phenomenon of how their patients feel. It's just a word - and a minimizing one at that.

Love for your therapist is completely, totally, utterly normal. In fact, it is a miracle, given what some of us have been through, that we still *can* respond in a positive way to simple human kindness. I had to learn to value my response and celebrate it. All in all, I was very grateful that my heart hadn't closed off for good. Just like my legs can still walk, my lungs can still breathe, my heart can still feel.

Those feelings in the room with the therapist do not spoil anything. They get to exist there, thrive there. I had every right for my therapist to be accepting, open to and receptive to the way I felt.

He was not going to feel the way I felt. What finally made that "click" for me was the fact that, although, one hour a week we shared a common space, the experience for each of us in the room is totally different. He did not, and should not, share his inner world with me. He was the vessel that held mine. It's kind of like how the ocean must feel about the incredible amount of life in it, the ships it ferries, and the pollution it has to absorb and disperse.

Another tough thing to deal with was the fact, that even though he was not going to feel the same way about me, the relationship that we did have was good enough. This one took a long time to develop. I had to allow the concept of "radical acceptance" into my life. By that I mean, it is what it is and nothing more. How did I get there? With the guidance of my therapist, I ran straight to Buddhism.

It's the desire that causes the pain. Letting go of that desire is the key. I can't meditate, but I can ruminate. I tried all sorts of things to alleviate that desire:

(1) In reality, I might not like my therapist at all in real life. I get the best part of him in therapy.

(2) If we did have a relationship outside the office, I would become responsible for his feelings too. That would kinda suck. The current relationship was all about me. Me me me me me me.

(3) I had to answer the question, what did I value more? The work we were actually doing, or the potential of something else. What I had was a sure thing. What I wanted was not.

(4) Realizing that the relationship was, at its core, crazy. Brilliantly insane for sure, confusing as all get out, unlike any other i'd ever known, and totally, utterly mad. This was the rumination that finally won out - embracing that madness and flowing with it. This realization allowed me to rest my head on the feeling instead of constantly and exhaustingly fighting against it.

I can't tell you how embracing the concept of radical acceptance has helped in other areas of my life too. It's allowed all kinds of feelings to surface, yet removed the desire to act on them immediately.

It's the ultimate freedom. It's the element of choice.

I really do hope this helps maybe someone out there, and doesn't sound too pedantic or preachy.

All I can say is that I've been there and just want peace for you all.

elliemay, thank you VERY much for posting this. I'm reading and rereading it because I can relate so much to it. I am at the point of trying to accept the love my T is giving me though it seems like "too much". I don't like to admit that I love her but maybe I do. It seems wrong, somehow, but your post makes it sound right.

My T always validates me when I comment on the beauty I see around me; she believes in mindfulness. Live in the present because that's all we have.

I still wish my T could share her inner world with me. I like your ocean analogy. I agree that I/we need to accept that therapy is "good enough". My former Ts used to all tell me that.

Radically accepting that the t-relationship is "crazy" and flowing with it. Wow! That's good. My T would like that because she doesn't want me to figure things out too much. Like when she said "If what that part needs is to hold my hand, then that's what we'll do." I will never forget her telling me that. When I don't fight those feelings and accept that it's where I am, I feel at peace.

Has it helped in those times when you cannot radically accept?

Ah! That's where wisdom and insight come into play. Knowing the difference between what one cannot, but should accept, versus what one should not, but can accept.

Elliemay... this is nice. Your points on "ruminating" out of it are interesting too... my personal take from my viewpoint...
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It's the desire that causes the pain. Letting go of that desire is the key. I can't meditate, but I can ruminate. I tried all sorts of things to alleviate that desire:
M: I think it is desire. For me, not desire for sex or anything like that... but desire to expand the relationship... because it feels like one that would be of great value to me.

(1) In reality, I might not like my therapist at all in real life. I get the best part of him in therapy.
M: This may be true. This may not be true. There's no way to know unless you find out more. I don't know much, be a little... and the little parts I do know are she is a beautiful woman with a nice family that goes to church and has friends... much like anyone else. You can't know the rest unless you can get closer, so this doesn't work for me.

(2) If we did have a relationship outside the office, I would become responsible for his feelings too. That would kinda suck. The current relationship was all about me. Me me me me me me.
M: I've never been one to think that any relationship is about me and only me. There is a woman sitting in the room talking with me. I don't want validation. I want feedback... I need the loop closed, not open. I want to help too... although I have no idea if I do or can... although my circumstances are a little unique in this regard. Some would say it's about you because you're paying to make it so. I don't care about the money. I haven't felt like this in forever, and while the pain is there, there is meaning in it which money can't buy...

(3) I had to answer the question, what did I value more? The work we were actually doing, or the potential of something else. What I had was a sure thing. What I wanted was not.
M: My problem is I no longer really know or understand what I'm working towards. I went in for something simple, and it turned into this. This is almost like your 1) point.

(4) Realizing that the relationship was, at its core, crazy. Brilliantly insane for sure, confusing as all get out, unlike any other i'd ever known, and totally, utterly mad. This was the rumination that finally won out - embracing that madness and flowing with it. This realization allowed me to rest my head on the feeling instead of constantly and exhaustingly fighting against it.
M: I think this will ultimately be what wins out. It is crazy. It makes me crazy. It makes no sense to think that some 47 year old married guy with kids could fall for some late 30's married woman with kids and it could ever be any more than sitting in her box for 45 minutes feeling like I felt when I was 16. It's just nuts... and I keep telling myself this over and over again.

I wish I had a real clue about what you mean by "radical acceptance"... Can you explain this more?

I appreciated what you wrote, ellie.
I have read articles that explain 'transference' as something happens in everyday life, in everyday interactions.....it doesn't just exist as a psychological term and only within the bounds of a therapeutic relationship! In a sense, transference happens all the time, when something about someone may remind us of someone else or of experiences with someone else and we react accordingly...first impressions are a sort of transference, perhaps (and my first impression of my T was someone who would be a good friend....as she must have reminded me of the very few people I have felt a closer connection to or could trust...... )
I haven't ever thought of my feelings, my love, toward my T as merely 'transference' brought about only because we are in this therapeutic setting together.....but rather as a normal reaction I'm simply having to her, and to how I see her as a person. I'm quite aware I might not at all want to be friends with her outside the therapy setting (I don't want her as a friend anyway; just as my T!) or like her as well even.....but I do think she has been her real self, not just a therapeutic construct of her best, most therapeutic qualities that I'm idealizing, and therefore loving something not really in existence! So I won't give 'transference' the credit for my feelings....I'm going to give myself the credit for my feelings, for my love, and I'm going to accept it and treat it as genuine and valid. I'm not going to put it in a box labeled 'therapeutically induced'......
And yes, I feel like I am at the place where I have a secure attachment to my T, without unrealistic expectations, but with a deep appreciation of the real connection that we have forged together.....

I had a huge problem with transference. Then, one session, I realized it had turned into a comfortable trust and love. A love that can't be gotten anywhere else. Not a romantic love, just a kind of pure one. If that makes sense.

Attachment and transference the same thing?
Freud did redefine transference later in his career to include everyday transference such as when we meet someone who reminds us of someone else, and because of that we automatically attribute qualities to the new person that the 'someone else' has/had, without having verified it. The guy who works in the produce section reminds me of my favorite uncle, so I think he has the same qualities as my favorite uncle.

Attachment in therapy is little different, but part of the process. It's about development. In early development we form attachments, from secure to disorganized. In short, therapy provides a relationship that we can form a secure attachment to. Attachment theory is complex and beyond my ability to explain. A good book about attachment in psychotherapy is .. "Attachment in Psychotherapy" by David J Wallin.

It was just the craziness of the relationship that won out for me in the end too. There was no rationalizing it out in my head. Just the knowledge that this whole thing was just insane, but somehow, someway it worked. At least for me.

“You feel the way you feel, ellie, crazy or not, and well, there you have it”

To me, therapy kinda felt like that dangling carrot in front of a donkey to get it to pull a cart scenario. The donkey never gets the carrot. Radical acceptance means “okay I know I’m not going to get that carrot, but I am going to choose to walk anyway. It’s not the carrot’s fault, it’s just the situation. I can pull the cart without it“

The notion of radical acceptance to me first involves acknowledging that there is a personal situation, a feeling, a something that is making me uncomfortable. The ultimate solutions to that situation are either unlikely, untenable or completely out of my control. At that juncture, you’ve got two options IMO (1) You can continue to fight against an immovable, unsolvable thing, or (2) you can accept the situation as not ideal, but the way it is.

Radical acceptance is acknowledging the way things are and being okay with that. It’s not pretending everything is okay, it’s acknowledging it isn’t, but choosing to accept it for what it is. Actively choosing. It’s the opposite of being passive.

To me, that’s what is radical about it, it’s the choice. It’s the freedom of choosing.

Another example was radically accepting my past. It was really really not good. I spent a whole lot of time wishing it was different. I almost got locked into the “why me’s”. Obviously, I can’t go back and change it, there are no “do overs”. I could either choose to continue to fight against it, or I could simply allow it to be what it was. Choosing to just let it be, freed me up to live right now .

Again, for me, it undermines the desire for change (or whatever) and eliminates the pain.

Elliemay... thank you. I like the choice part... reminds me of Neo in the Matrix Reloaded... "Choice is the problem" I think this is why I have chosen not to quit the therapy... I've told her what I feel. I've tried to be honest... because at first it was making me crazy not telling... now making me crazy not understanding what I'm doing. I know there are reasons... call it age... call it my past relationships... call it <fill in the blank>... I just don't know where the carrot will pull me to... or if I really want to go there... or if there is a there to go to... I'm overthinking. But in choosing to continue, atleast I'm choosing not to quit... I want a do over... but maybe that's for another life or something...

One thing that has changed is the way the therapy is structured. Before I told her, it was plain old CBT with homework, where she drove the sessions. Now they've changed to where there is no homework, and she basically just lets me talk (this part makes me very uncomfortable)... which I guess is more like normal psychotherapy... I guess that's what happens when you spill the beans...

Again thank you. Your words are wise... and I like that

Interesting thoughts, Echoes....and a good question about attachment/transference! My first thought is that they're not the same.....but quite intertwined. If my first impression of my T had something to do with transference, what has developed in the course of our therapeutic relationship is that secure attachment, a love and trust which is above and beyond transference, if you will......and the secure attachment/healthy therapeutic relationship is something that can act as a model from which I can learn about my other relationships, a safe place in which to explore thoughts, emotions, behavior pattens and to heal from wounds caused in/by attachments/relationships that weren't healthy or secure. These are just my thoughts.....

wow thanks very insightfull

Thanks for raising the attachment question, ECHOES. I am strongly and securely attached to my T, but I don't have (positive) transference. At least that is how I define what goes on between me and my T. But sometimes I think others use the terms differently, and that can make communication confusing. What is one person's transference is another person's attachment. Sometimes it seems to me like those who say they are experiencing painful transference are insecurely attached, and it makes me wonder if I truly understand what all these terms mean. I get confused! I do know that the positive feelings I have toward my T are real and not based on someone from my past, so I feel sure my feelings are not transference. And how I feel about him does seem to fit secure attachment (I don't feel abandoned when he goes on vacations, etc.). I think very early in therapy I experienced some weird crap, perhaps insecure/disorganized attachment or perhaps unexpected love, which can be disconcerting. After a while I settled down into a secure attachment and it has been great. Secure attachment for me includes love, trust, and a confidence in the relationship and the constancy of the other person and his/her intent. It's really, really nice and not something I expected when I signed up for therapy. The fact that I could securely attach to my T fairly readily helps me feel not so damaged/wounded--it's a self esteem booster. Like, hey, I can do something right!

Thank you. I don't know about wise...

I think there is a lot of Buddhism in the matrix actually…. Well, except for all the violence and hair gel.

Man, I’ll tell you – another crazy maker in therapy is that the person that is the source of a lot of the pain, is also the person that can help you get out of it.

I think you need to talk to your therapist about what you’re thinking and overthinking. One of my therapist’s most favorite questions is “Well, what’s been getting the most airtime lately?” There’s got to be room for these kinds of discussions.

What if I asked you to get out of your head and relax with the feeling you have for your therapist? …just allowed them to be present without judgment for a moment.
What do you think would happen?
What if I told you that I thought you had spilled nothing, but rather opened something?

Violence... hair gel... and tight clothes on Trinity... lol

Yep on the source and out... but I'm not there yet.

Yep on the overthinking... It's what I do... I'm a designer, so it's my tendency... turn the problem over and over in your mind until you can see the flaws so you can fix them... so that they are not found by someone else later. I can't help it... it's me... and the same goes go for this relationship. I see the flaws... I want to fix them... I don't know how yet without tearing the world around me down...

... and spilling the beans leads to them being processed... and then they get stinky But joking aside, what is open is my heart... I've opened it to her... and the problem is maybe this isn't where it should be opened to... it's wierd.

Again, thank you...

Thanks for this thread Elliemay, I think many needed to hear some of your wise words right now, along with me. I never had a problem in my 6 years with a female therapist, but now I'm running into some problems going into my 1 year with a male therapist. I'm discovering MAJOR attachment issues and a bit of obsessivenss with wanting to know more about his personal life...it really embarresses me and makes me feel very insecure. My T knows a little about my dependency but no where near as bad as it gets. I'm learning to deal a little better, but your suggestions about what to ask ourselves is very helpful. Thank you again

Actually, it's been pretty interesting that several people have been posting on this topic lately. When I found this site, this is what I was really looking for, because it's the main thing that has been bothering me for the last few months. I know there's the other sub thread on "romantic feelings", but it almost seems dirty to post over there...

You talk about not fighting it, and I think that's the hardest part when with her. I say something, and it seems too personal because it's directed at her. I then get uncomfortable with what I said and how I feel, and it's almost like I'm transferring that to her too, so I start apologizing and backing down. It's just odd... my behavior... what I expect from her behavior which doesn't match, which I suppose I interpret as saying the wrong thing, causing me to feel bad and apologize and back down.

I guess what's hard is trying to figure out why you're (I'm) doing this, and it's what leads to wanting to leave. If you're (I'm) doing this, there has to be a reason... so rather than pepper her with "how do I love thee, let me count the ways", do I talk about my mother? My wife? My past relationships? Do I just ignore how I feel for the other person in the room and just rant about... what? Do I ask her to direct me? I don't know how to proceed, other than to ignore, talk about whatever comes to mind, sprinkled in with compliments... which has to make her feel uncomfortable... or again, overthinking?

Wow - that is a very profound post that really hit me hard. But it makes it a lot easier for me to understand and accept

Talk about the process itself; why are you getting connected and enmeshed with this T in this way?

Obviously, you are not alone in feeling this way. It happens to a lot of people in therapy. Even Freud first noticed that his patients tended to fall in love with him. For some, it seems to be a natural, normal part of the process. The opening up of both heart and mind. Like it or not, we are human beings. It seems to be what we do.

I totally agree, it was the hardest thing in the world for me not to fight it. However, I do think you have a right to know what, at least in part, is going on in that head of hers and what she is thinking, so the interpretation is not left up to you. This can be a sticky wicket though. It's almost as though I had to hear him say "this is not going to happen", but simultaneously hear from him "it's okay, I understand, there is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about" and then also hear at the same time "please continue on about how you love me, we need to talk about this ". And then I had to get reassurance that he could handle what I was talking about and not get scared and terminate me. It's all so damn confusing!

I remember one session I had with my therapist very very clearly. I was so frustrated, hurt, confused and inundated with feeling that I simply snapped and said "I have no idea what I'm even doing here. What are we doing here?" "Why in God's name would I continue on with this... this crap!" He has this ticking clock in his office. It seemed like forever that I listened to that clock tick after my little outburst.

He finally said "You get to feel that way here, you get to ask those questions". "I think what we are doing here is fighting through the crap together, all you have to do is just keep talking."

It seemed like a hallmark card answer, but looking back it does make some sense. There has to be room in therapy for this confusion, but you've got to get some response from your therapist. You've got to keep talking to her about your concerns, what your fighting against and the confusion of it all. She's got to provide you with some containment, some framework that allows you to move through it and fight through the crap together.

IMO, the resolution mainly lies with you, but you are not alone in this. There are two people in that room. It sounds as though you need more of a response from her than what you are getting about the process.

I've walked that road and shared my way to resolution, but your path may be different. But you're in therapy to talk. You gotta do it.

Elliemay... thank you again, as well as to the others that have replied.

Pachyderm, you asked why I was getting enmeshed with her this way... Part of me believes that she is asking the same damn question. I think it's my age, the feeling of being cut off from women for most of my life due to the nature of my work and my very long term relationship, my romantic tendencies which stay hidden, and maybe a tad of idealization when it comes to women in general. This... thing... this therapy... wasn't about any of that when it started. I got emotional while talking out of the blue about a romantic scene in a movie... and I'm a man... I don't get emotional like that in front of people... this meant something to me because I was doing it with her... she asked me why, but I replied with something stupid ("I have a thing for idiot stories"). Later, again, out of the blue, I told her a story about how I met my wife and it's relationship to my daughter's looking for a relationship, and she got emotional, unexpectedly for me... but when this happened, it was brief, and then she was back in control, it was at the end of a session, and I didn't have the balls to ask her what had just happened. I closed the loop at this point, and the entire "therapy thing" changed for me. I did this. Not her. I don't think she realized what happened to me. It's important for me to stress that she did nothing wrong. We're starting to work through this.

As Elliemay stated, this really is about me, not her. I think she is as confused by my behavior as much as I am... and because for the life of me I see her as a person which I care about, I don't want to feel like I'm hurting her. I also want to feel like a man, and not like I'm in here whimpering about... whatever my issues are. I want her to like me. I want to be easy, in the context that I know her job is hard and she sees lots of people with all sorts of issues which have to be more troubling or hard to deal with than my little infatuation problem. It's my nature to be this way.

Hell, look at me. I'm at work needing to do my job, and I'm writing all of this. Anyways... again thank you for your responses. I really do appreciate them.

No, I was trying to suggest that talking about this process with her was a good idea.

Ok... sorry. TMI I guess then Thank you for the suggestion. I'll follow up...

Why do you think she is confused? I think most therapists have experience of clients loving them, holding them in high regard, etc. Is she a fairly new therapist? Do you think she doesn't know how to work with you on this? I think it's worth telling her that she appears confused to you and you are worried about hurting her. Do you think that something you say to her might be hurtful? Or that your pain is so great you don't want to share it with her because she will be hurt by proximity? I think this is something that Ts are used to dealing with. I had trouble telling some yucky stuff to my T because I didn't want him to have to hear it--I was protecting him. We had a good talk about that and he told me he could handle it (let fly!) and that that is often a worry of clients. (He thanked me for my concern.)

Can you ask her about that moment? When a T is highly attuned to a client, he/she will sometimes express empathetic emotion. I think this can be a good thing in a T, and it sounds like your T was oozing empathy when you told her that story. Empathy is so key for a T, and I am glad for you that she has this.

Your money is as good as any other client's, Mark, so your T is there to work for you in the time you pay for. What she does with other clients does not factor in to the time and attention she gives to you. I have been down this road too. My T said to me a couple of times early in therapy: "you are healthier than 90% of the clients who walk through my door." This made me feel, of course, that I was unworthy of his time, that other clients needed him much more, etc. We discussed this quite a few months later (I urge you to be quicker on the draw than I am!) and I learned that he meant nothing of the sort. He was just stating his perception and he did not mean at all that I was unworthy of his time or that my problems were trivial.

Mark, I wish you well with this. I know how it is to go to therapy to work on one thing and then find yourself working on something completely different. I think the more you can share with your T about how things go in the room for you (e.g. you perceive her as confused, that she might be hurt, that you wonder why she got emotional at your story, etc.), the better your T will understand you, and the swifter "progress" you will make. (I put progress in quotes because sometimes it is hard to perceive one's own progress. )

Thanks sunrise.

I think she was/is confused by how suddenly it seemed to come on to her. I held back for a while, and then sort of tossed these feelings at her as a knee jerk reaction. I am also a lot less clear in voice than I am on paper (since I have time to edit and re-read )

In our last session, I did go back over this whole thing with her. My first attempts were to write down what I was feeling and try to explain it that way, but I did not explain where it came from (the 2 small things). This may also have led to more confusion, since what I wrote was "I don't know why...". This last time, I told her why... mostly because I was trying to clear the air before self-termination. I think I knew why she got the way she got... something I don't want to air publicly, although there is nothing wrong about it. She validated what I said... and her response to this was... unique... and more meaningful to me than I can properly describe. She is indeed a truly special woman. I've lost, atleast for now, the desire to terminate, but still don't know where this leads. She's pointed out a first step, which I am trying to pursue.

I understand it's my money and my time. I don't see her but every other week, which I think is part of the problem... this was also raised last session (go to every week). She asked, and I said the stupidest thing... "I would like weekly, but I don't want to be a burden". She said to let her know... I think she wanted "yes" or "no", not more silly mumbojumbo... If I change the schedule, other people know I changed it and want to know why... This whole "relationship" thing just has me twisted. I fully understand I'm not viewing it properly. I'm sure we'll go over it again next week when we meet... and then we'll see what happens from there...