[Suratji]

Guilt and shame are probably a good emotion to feel - to a point. What if we didn't feel guilty? Then we would probably not have any kind of moral compass to help guide us through life. And that's probably who the criminals are in this world - people who have no feelings of guilt.

But, why do we hold on to our guilt? Are we still participating in actions that we feel guilty about? Then, guilt is probably useful. It should help us to avoid actions that don't adhere to our own values.

But, what if we're not doing the actions that we're carrying guilt around for? What is the practical use of carrying that guilt around? Isn't the past the past? What's done is done? Why can't we let go?

Sometimes I think I may be pursuing a path of self-gratification by holding on to my guilt. I know that doesn't make sense but if you think about it a bit, it keeps my attentions focused on ME. And if I'm focused on me, my goodness, isn't that the most important thing in the world??? Me!

What if I tried to change my focus off of me? What if I took a look around? What if I threw myself into doing good for others? What if I engaged in some selfless acts towards people in need? What if I gave instead of took? I "take" when I'm so self-absorbed.

So, if I think about others instead of myself, maybe I'll forget my misdeeds and they will become part of a forgotten story. A story that held import in its time but is no longer relevant. What if we believed we could change the story? Can we not choose to be who we want to be? Must the past imprison us forever?

[lastyearisblank]

Someone told me once that guilt is when you feel you've done something bad-- and shame is when you feel you are bad. Both feel bad but they are two distinct feelings.

It is practical to feel guilt sometimes (shame, I'm not so sure about). It's like nature's way of telling us we did something wrong. But sometimes I think that we overdo it. We assume we can and should control everything. It becomes a battle to meet our own excessive expectations. We turn ourselves into our own worst enemies.

I love the catch phrase around here "be gentle with yourself." I think it's no accident a lot of people need to hear that. Guilt and shame come from bad experiences and part of healing is knowing when to feel them, and when to let go...

[SpiritRunner]

My T has explained the difference, as she sees it, between guilt and shame - guilt is generally a good thing and serves a useful purpose, because it helps us feel bad when we've done wrong and motivates us to want to correct whatever it is we've done or whatever in us really needs to be changed. Shame, however, is something that is toxic to our spirit, to our minds....we feel bad, we get into a place of self-hatred, self-loathing, we aren't seeing whether or not there's really anything to feel legitimately guilty about because we have judged ourselves as bad and unworthy. And instead of feeling motivated to change, we are motivated to hide.....
So guilt can move us toward good change; shame keeps us stuck in bad beliefs about ourselves.
Guilt and shame can be related though, I think.....maybe there are things I should feel guilty about and have some shame for too, but then I add a lot more unnecessary shame to it (self-hatred, self-condemnation), even after I've done things to take care of the guilt. I can let the guilt go, but hold on to the shame.....and as my T says, it really is toxic and only adds pain and fear. So to replace shame with compassion for myself instead is what I hope to learn.....

[with or without you]

Yes poetgirl, shame is definitely toxic...I told my T the last time I saw her that I thought shame was the absolute worst feeling in the world...worse than grief, worse than guilt, worse than regret. I could go on...

[inbloom]

Originally Posted by Suratji

Guilt and shame are probably a good emotion to feel - to a point. What if we didn't feel guilty? Then we would probably not have any kind of moral compass to help guide us through life. And that's probably who the criminals are in this world - people who have no feelings of guilt.

But, why do we hold on to our guilt? Are we still participating in actions that we feel guilty about? Then, guilt is probably useful. It should help us to avoid actions that don't adhere to our own values.

But, what if we're not doing the actions that we're carrying guilt around for? What is the practical use of carrying that guilt around? Isn't the past the past? What's done is done? Why can't we let go?

Sometimes I think I may be pursuing a path of self-gratification by holding on to my guilt. I know that doesn't make sense but if you think about it a bit, it keeps my attentions focused on ME. And if I'm focused on me, my goodness, isn't that the most important thing in the world??? Me!

What if I tried to change my focus off of me? What if I took a look around? What if I threw myself into doing good for others? What if I engaged in some selfless acts towards people in need? What if I gave instead of took? I "take" when I'm so self-absorbed.

So, if I think about others instead of myself, maybe I'll forget my misdeeds and they will become part of a forgotten story. A story that held import in its time but is no longer relevant. What if we believed we could change the story? Can we not choose to be who we want to be? Must the past imprison us forever?

Suratji, I really love the ideas that you have brought up here. One time when I was feeling particularly low and dealing with a lot of depression, I asked my T how I could begin to feel better, and he told me "throw yourself into doing something for someone else." This is really hard to do when we feel so bad, BUT, you have a really good point when you say that feeling depressed and in pain and full of guilt and shame....these are very egocentric feelings that keep us self-absorbed. This is not because we are bad selfish people, however, sometimes it is useful to force ourselves to step away from our own issues and to focus outward.

A lot of times when I am feeling REALLY bad, I make a decision to throw myself into whatever activity my kids are doing, and I make a real effort to give myself to them and to focus on them and their needs and desires. This usually does offer some relief, albeit maybe temporary, from my own spiraling feelings.

Thank you for bringing this up......makes me really think about the extent of control I *do* have over my feelings and the ways that I react and respond to them.

[Sannah]

Would foregiveness come into this then Suratji?

[seventyeight]

hi suratji, my therapist always tells me that guilt (and shame and embarrassment) are all "repressed rage." it's something about it being easier to be mad at yourself (which is kind of what is happening when you feel guilty), than to be mad at the person causing the guilt (so in essesence, you're repressing the anger). it makes a bit of sense to me, so i thought i'd pass it along..

Originally Posted by Suratji

Guilt and shame are probably a good emotion to feel - to a point. What if we didn't feel guilty? Then we would probably not have any kind of moral compass to help guide us through life. And that's probably who the criminals are in this world - people who have no feelings of guilt. Do you feel guilty?

But, why do we hold on to our guilt? Are we still participating in actions that we feel guilty about? Then, guilt is probably useful. It should help us to avoid actions that don't adhere to our own values. Does guilt and shame have you in bondage?

But, what if we're not doing the actions that we're carrying guilt around for? What is the practical use of carrying that guilt around? Isn't the past the past? What's done is done? Why can't we let go? Doesn't the past affect the present? Is your past affecting you now? We cannot go back and change what we have done. We also cannot live in guilt and shame for the mistakes we have made. YOU have to be the one to let it go. Are you ready to do that?

Sometimes I think I may be pursuing a path of self-gratification by holding on to my guilt. I know that doesn't make sense but if you think about it a bit, it keeps my attentions focused on ME. And if I'm focused on me, my goodness, isn't that the most important thing in the world??? Me! You are pretty important. You have to be with yourself all the time! There is no escape from our own self. Shouldn't we take care of SELF? If SELF is not well, SELF cannot help others.

What if I tried to change my focus off of me? What if I took a look around? What if I threw myself into doing good for others? What if I engaged in some selfless acts towards people in need? What if I gave instead of took? I "take" when I'm so self-absorbed. Would this be called avoidance or distraction? Are you avoiding something?

So, if I think about others instead of myself, maybe I'll forget my misdeeds and they will become part of a forgotten story. A story that held import in its time but is no longer relevant. Story? We never forget our story. You either heal from it, or you carry the guilt and shame with you forever. It eats away at you. It destroys you from the inside out. Decay? Rotten to the core? That is what happens when we try to ignore our story.

What if we believed we could change the story? We can't. Can we not choose to be who we want to be? Yes, you can. But you still have to deal with yourself no matter who you are. Must the past imprison us forever? No. Who has the keys to unlock the doors of bondage? You do. You are the only one who can set yourself free.

If only it were so simple to just wipe away the things in our lives that we want to forget, ignore, and PRETEND never happened. "If only" is not realistic. We have to face the past, the present, and the future. We cannot run away from who we are.

Who are you? That is a question we all need to answer.

[Suratji]

Squiggle - you make excellent points as usual. Man, I can't get away with anything with you.

{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}P.C.....you help me grow........thank you for this thread.~W~

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Suratji

What if we didn't feel guilty? Then we would probably not have any kind of moral compass to help guide us through life.

These are really interesting thoughts on guilt. I don't think it is a bad thing not to feel guilty (at least after one has learned from one's mistake). I don't think morality is necessarily guided by feelings of guilt. I think integrity and morality can have other drivers.

Originally Posted by Suratji

why do we hold on to our guilt?

I don't know. It's a good question. And it may be depend on the person. Suratji, do you know why you hold onto guilt?

I tend not to be a very guilty person. I live by my code and try not to do things I regret. There are times I make a mistake, and I do feel guilt initially, but I don't keep tormenting myself by holding onto that. I hope I learn something from the situation and resolve to do better in the future. I have said several times in therapy to my T, "I know that wasn't the best thing to have done, and I'm not proud of it, but I'm not going to keep beating myself up about it." It's like once the lesson is learned, I let go of it. I think for me, it's that I have enough difficult issues in my life without adding to my anxiety/pain/stress by holding moments from the past that I regret. So I just try to do the best I can.

I find shame a lot harder to deal with and to let go. It's like shame is more intrinsic to my being, and guilt is more surface and I can deal with it more easily.

I do agree that helping others, being selfless, volunteering, etc., can help draw one out of oneself and be a good thing. Just the last day or two, I have wondered, though, if I am getting "too much" from helping others (almost a buzz or a high), and this is masking my personal problems and keeping me from working on them. I think it would be healthier for me if there was more of a balance. I have had a long habit of putting others before myself, and I wonder if this is just more of the same... Or maybe it is helping me understand why I do that--there is a lot of positive reinforcement. I am feeling a little uncomfortable about that.

[Perna]

"Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realises or believes--accurately or not--that they have violated a moral standard, and bear sole responsibility for that violation." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt

I think we carry around guilt only when we don't "bear sole responsibility" and thus, make restitution. It's the dramatic breast-beating without doing anything practical about what we believe.

[WikidPissah]

The only answer I can come up with is Catholic Schooling...lol, 16 yrs of it, I feel guilty about EVERYTHING, especially about not doing a confession/penance every week.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

The only answer I can come up with is Catholic Schooling...lol, 16 yrs of it, I feel guilty about EVERYTHING, especially about not doing a confession/penance every week.

The teachers feeling their own sense of guilt, and projecting that onto you -- and you absorb the feeling and make it yours without even knowing it?

My thought about guilt feelings is very simple: it is the expectation of punishment. No more than that. Waiting for the blow to descend.