[ECHOES]

How can this be?

4 years in therapy and still feeling uncomfortable in the relationship. Yet I see a lot of good and welcome changes outside of therapy. I see changes inside therapy, being able to talk more and more freely at times. But I can't say why the changes have happened or where it comes from.

It feels like I have taken something in from therapy, yet I most of the time don't have really great thoughts about the therapy relationship. Right now it feels like there isn't one. I feel like it's someting I tolerate. Sometimes I look forward to it, but I think the looking forward to it is about wanting it to become something it isn't and maybe never will be. I don't even mean my pretty much worked through fantasy of T being maternal, but I do mean a comfortable feeling and comfortable relating relationship and maybe that is also a fantasy.

How do you know whether to keep going? How do I know there isn't someone else out there who could help in the same way, yet also be someone I can relate to better?

A factor is her reduced fee. She's reduced it twice from $100 and it is now $50. I not only wouldn't find that out there with someone else (guessing, I know) but also I have googled and googled and can't find anyone who isn't young (I am not) or anyone who doesn't claim CBT as what they offer. (Just my preference, I know there are people who are helped by CBT therapists, but I was not. several times.).

I really want someone to relate to. But maybe my life is so small and poor and narrow that I will never find that. I'm just feeling very unlikable and unlovable and that maybe the way I am means this is just how therapy will be. I think she tries, but I don't respond right or maybe I don't appreciate her trying or something.

[SpiritRunner]

I don't know, Echoes.....maybe it could be better, or maybe it really is better than you are feeling at this moment!
Maybe this feeling of it being something you tolerate is something to actually explore.....a deeper realm could be behind that that could be opened up as to how you relate/function in relationships. Maybe I don't make any sense there...
There are good things about your T, as you say....maybe try making a list of all the good things?? Reasons to stay......as well as reasons to go, and see which list is longer/stronger.
Just some thoughts......
I don't think you are unlikable or unlovable for what my opinion is worth! Although I do relate to the feeling......((((((echoes)))))))

[PTSDlovemycats]

(((((HUGS)))))

[rainbow8]

I didn't expect to find a T who I would be so much more comfortable with and fit better than any of the 4 others I saw, but I did. I didn't expect it to happen, and I wasn't aware before I started, that she would be the way she was. I just know that I like the way my T treats me.

I have always been open with my Ts, even if the fit wasn't good. But with my current T, it's different. We're more equal, more of a team. I don't feel like she's above me.

So, maybe you could find someone you could feel better with but is it worth it to you to change? Maybe it is. If you know what you want that you don't have, you could see if you could find a T like that. But you won't know until you meet the T. Do you want someone with a different orientation or just someone you "click" with better? Maybe you could interview a few to see if you can find someone else. After 6 plus years with my T, I wasn't sure a new T would be different, but boy, was I surprised!!!

Then again, the goal of therapy is NOT to have a great relationship with a T, so maybe it's not so good that I feel the way I do about my T. Don't take my word for what's good for you. I would suggest looking up some others on PsychologyToday, maybe, just to see what you think. You could also talk to your T about it; though it would be an awkward conversation, it would be productive.

[ECHOES]

Maybe this is just another attempt to retreat? Same behavior, different setting. (home vs. in session).

[velcro003]

Echoes, I totally feel you. I've been with my T for over 3 years, and I still question our relationship. I noticed that yours is also psychoanalytic/psychodynamic like mine. I think for me, what I question most is her lack of feedback or response. I could never tell if she liked or disliked me, what I said. What she REALLY thought about me. Yet, I could never ever tell her that I was worried about this.

Interestingly, when adding another T to the mix (EMDR), things have changed. I feel guilty about this,like I am improving only because EMDR T has entered the equation. I managed to sort of bring this up with my T, and she said that I wouldn't be able to do this 6 months ago (which i agree with), and that our 3 years haven't been a waste. She said "Sometimes just talking doesn't work. That is why EMDR therapy is so effective."

It is just a totally different approach. My EMDR T will ask direct questions, like "What about us can we help to make you feel safer?," which my regular T has never said. And yet, my T seems to agree/go along with it.

What I am saying is--it could be the approach. For me, silence = unpredictability. What kept me going is that she has never done anything "wrong," but I perceive things in her silence to be there that may not be--but i'm too scared to bring up.

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I feel like it's someting I tolerate.

((((((((((ECHOES))))))))))))

This is kind of how I felt before my break. I didn't want to be there while I was there, I just wanted to get up and leave during sessions, I felt stifled. "tolerate" is a great word for it.

I decided to pay attention to that feeling and take a break, and being away from T for a while really did help clarify some things for me. It helped me see where I've grown, where I still need to work, what I do need T for, what I can do without T. It was WAY more helpful than I expected it to be.

Now I'm back, and therapy is very different. I don't feel stifled. I feel clearer on what I need, and I feel more secure (usually ) about the whole T relationship. Something about leaving and coming back and finding him still there and still the same and still connected was really reassuring to me.

So. I am wondering if a break would help? I found the space in a planned break to be so helpful. It was different than the kind of break where T goes away on vacation or whatever. It was for me, and about me.

Sometimes when therapy gets stale, I think we need to change things up a bit.

[lastyearisblank]

I just love what Velcro said. How do you feel when there are silences in therapy? I also think it is so wonderful how psychoanalytic-y therapy recognizes a lot of the depths of experiences. But the utter weakness of the approach is.... it has very little "tools" to offer but a relationship with a T, who for their part, is pretty much often forced to hold back! Like you and Velcro said, there needs to be a sense of connection and that doesn't have to mean some "perfect mommy fantasy" either.

The hardest thing, for me, to handle, is that ambiguity or distance. Surprise surprise, I find silences especially hard to tolerate too, I would say 99% of the time if there is quiet, my T things we're being gentle and comfortable together and I think my T hates me and wants me to go away.

I think T's tend to have a more "objective" view of what the relationship is and yours may indeed have very warm and friendly feelings toward you. And I'm sorry you feel unloveable! I guess what I'm saying is after 4 years I'm sure you have a relationship but.... I wish someone could give you an answer for if it's the optimal one, because it does sound like it's not quite nice enough right now.

[ECHOES]

I like silences in therapy. We have talked about that. She can't bear them, and has to fill them up. When she attempts to not fill them up, then she sits there with a kind of exaggerated expression of "I'm not saying anything!". It still ruins the silence.

I think silences are productive and that they can feel like a shared intimacy. But maybe that is the problem with her and silences....

[maggyjo]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I like silences in therapy. We have talked about that. She can't bear them, and has to fill them up. When she attempts to not fill them up, then she sits there with a kind of exaggerated expression of "I'm not saying anything!". It still ruins the silence.

I think silences are productive and that they can feel like a shared intimacy. But maybe that is the problem with her and silences....

Might be. My last T really liked silence, she thought it was great to just sit with something for a minute and she also felt it was a shared intimacy. I hated it and only felt more alone.

If you goal of therapy is to learn to have a relationship, I think 4 years is a rather short time.

Maggy Jo

[ECHOES]

Originally Posted by Maggy Jo

If you goal of therapy is to learn to have a relationship, I think 4 years is a rather short time.

Thank you for your reply! Can you say why you think 4 years is a rather short time?

[ECHOES]

So... another post talks about blaming the therapist for the distress in therapy... am I doing that too?

I want to own my part but I think if I keep reacting and running and not talking about it when it happens, I won't get to my part.

What do you think?

[lastyearisblank]

Well do you guys ever talk about this stuff?

Yucky as it is maybe part of intimacy is talking about the times you miss each other. (Ugh)

[rainbow8]

IFS and EMDR Ts are more direct, and do therapy differently. They deal with the here and now, the way you are interacting with your T in the therapy at that moment. I know what you mean, Velcro. It's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by maggyjo

I think 4 years is a rather short time.

For some of us, four years is a large fraction of the time we have left on earth!

[elliemay]

I think what I hear you saying is that you would like more connection in the relationship with your therapist.

Sometimes though that connection, I think, has to come from you too.

Have you expressed these feelings to her?

On the other hand, and my therapist will freely admit this, therapy can be very boring punctuated by moments that catalyze a lot of work, a lot of connection and a lot of healing.

Maybe you are just in one of those boring phases.

[lifelesstraveled]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

How can this be?

4 years in therapy and still feeling uncomfortable in the relationship. Yet I see a lot of good and welcome changes outside of therapy. I see changes inside therapy, being able to talk more and more freely at times. But I can't say why the changes have happened or where it comes from.

It feels like I have taken something in from therapy, yet I most of the time don't have really great thoughts about the therapy relationship. Right now it feels like there isn't one. I feel like it's someting I tolerate. Sometimes I look forward to it, but I think the looking forward to it is about wanting it to become something it isn't and maybe never will be. I don't even mean my pretty much worked through fantasy of T being maternal, but I do mean a comfortable feeling and comfortable relating relationship and maybe that is also a fantasy.

How do you know whether to keep going? How do I know there isn't someone else out there who could help in the same way, yet also be someone I can relate to better?

A factor is her reduced fee. She's reduced it twice from $100 and it is now $50. I not only wouldn't find that out there with someone else (guessing, I know) but also I have googled and googled and can't find anyone who isn't young (I am not) or anyone who doesn't claim CBT as what they offer. (Just my preference, I know there are people who are helped by CBT therapists, but I was not. several times.).

I really want someone to relate to. But maybe my life is so small and poor and narrow that I will never find that. I'm just feeling very unlikable and unlovable and that maybe the way I am means this is just how therapy will be. I think she tries, but I don't respond right or maybe I don't appreciate her trying or something.

Echoes, I just want to say that I completely OVERSTAND this, as I am struggling with this with my current T. I need to come back a little later to explain. If I try now, I have a feeling it wouldnt be very clear.

[Perna]

I think I understand what you are saying. My T was a dual citizen, from Asia versus my Caucasian background, wholly different upbringing, etc. I had CSA issues from someone of her nationality too. Not a good place to start a relationship? Fortunately I have a good imagination so I could usually ignore the glaring differences (except when we were standing together before/after sessions; I outweighed her by at least 150 pounds and was easily a foot taller).

I think I found the differences helpful, it kept me focused on just the relationship; maybe imagine you are shipwrecked with your T? I would sometimes complain because my T wouldn't try to read body language, facial expressions, etc. (claimed to be "bad" at those things and pointed out how easy it can be to be incorrect; one can't "guess" what another is thinking, one has to ask/be told) she would reiterate that all we had was our words and the conversation between us.

Eventually I "got" that and it became second nature to discuss what I felt about what she said, what I felt about what I was thinking, how what I was feeling influenced me, etc. It was like how I discussed my dreams; you know how you think they're embarrassing but then get into the spirit of them, realize they are "just" dreams? Discussing what came up in session became like that, it was like we were just pouring over a situation together, both of us interested and non-judgmental, just curious about the adventure of where it would lead us.

[dinosaurs]

i definately had a defense of RUN when i wasn't liking what was happening in therapy. and it is so crazymaking because i could never tell if i was wanting to leave for a legitimate reason (like another t could help me better) or whether it was my defense kicking in. because it always sure felt like i had legitimate and strong reasons to leave.

i basically got to a point where i could see it was defense sometimes and basically had to make a rule that i wouldn't leave no matter how i felt. and so i'd always tell t when it was happening and we'd work out why i was feeling the need to get away. and sometimes t would see what he was doing wasn't helping so he'd change his approach. and sometimes we'd find it linked to a trigger to the past. and sometimes i'd have to learn that t was ok and i didn't need to escape to be safe.

Originally Posted by ECHOES

So... another post talks about blaming the therapist for the distress in therapy... am I doing that too?

I want to own my part but I think if I keep reacting and running and not talking about it when it happens, I won't get to my part.

What do you think?

i don't know if that is what you are doing. i know for me, that yeah i mostly blamed him for whatever was wrong. i guess if you are wondering it and it feels like it may have some truth, then i'd say it probably does have some truth in it. i think a really key part is when you say "I want to own my part but I think if I keep reacting and running and not talking about it when it happens, I won't get to my part. " well this is exactly right. no matter whether you think this whole thing is true or not, you DO have to tell t how you are reacting to these things and talk about it. if you don't do that you don't move forward and these awful things will just come up over and over and over and over and over and well you get it.

i can understand you find it hard to talk about the reactions while you're there with her. but you do need to find a way to tell her next time you see her, or in between visits. telling her this stuff that you don't want to tell her is exacty where healing lies.

[PTSDlovemycats]

Dinos, that sounds sort of the like the plight between fight vs. flight..

[sittingatwatersedge]

((((((((((((((((( echoes )))))))))))))))

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Maybe this is just another attempt to retreat? Same behavior, different setting. (home vs. in session).

this is a very important question. I am fighting so many thoughts of quitting too - it's taking so long that I must be malingering... nothing is wrong, really, because the few people who know I'm going are sick of it (including T)...... I can do the rest myself... when I am not so down it's easier to admit that
I want to escape,
I don't want to give up the protections I have built up over the years because it's scary,
if left to myself I would never change...
and I want to run away, hide, avoid.

I know this is a hard place. For me anyway, it isn't so much "is this as good as it gets" but more like "is this good enough so I can stop now". For me the answer is no... I think... how about you, twinnie?

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I want to own my part but I think if I keep reacting and running and not talking about it when it happens, I won't get to my part.

Echoes, my first thought was that you feared intimacy. If so, maybe it is time to tackle this?

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

, but I do mean a comfortable feeling and comfortable relating relationship and maybe that is also a fantasy.

How do I know there isn't someone else out there who could help in the same way, yet also be someone I can relate to better?

I really want someone to relate to. But maybe my life is so small and poor and narrow that I will never find that. I'm just feeling very unlikable and unlovable and that maybe the way I am means this is just how therapy will be.

My belief is that it's critical that we relate well to our T's. I liked my T from the first meeting with her. I feel comfortable and I feel like I can say anything to her. Not that I always do - I still need to work on my own courage.

It is not a fantasy to have a T with whom we like working with. I have had the typical ruptures with my T that any client/T will have but that's part of the therapeutic process. I would never ever stay with a T with whom I didn't feel a connection.

[ECHOES]

Thank you all again

Dinos, you have many many important thoughts. I could relate so much!

i definately had a defense of RUN when i wasn't liking what was happening in therapy. and it is so crazymaking because i could never tell if i was wanting to leave for a legitimate reason (like another t could help me better) or whether it was my defense kicking in. because it always sure felt like i had legitimate and strong reasons to leave

Yes!!

i basically got to a point where i could see it was defense sometimes

Yeah, I think that's about where I am right now. That's why I am questioning my blaming her for being a certain way or doing this or that.

Someone once told me, "Since you have done a good job of establishing in your mind that T isn't good enough, perhaps now you can get down to analyzing the deeper levels of your mind in her presence".

sawe, my twinnie I agree. I think I am just now prepared for deeper therapy. And quitting isn't going to get me where I want to go, even if it would be a satisfying short term solution it wouldn't be tolerable in the long term.

Sannah, yes I fear intimacy. I realized last night that it isn't HER (T) that I'm afraid of, it is ME (not T.. haha) that I'm afraid of. That is what is making me run or retreat. I think that's why this time it feels different. Not only do I see that I'm responding by retreating, but also, even though I have blamed T for this and that and not-this and not-that... , I knew that she was truly just being regular ole T and she hadn't become something else. So, that thought, fleeting though it wanted to be, and was.. is what helped me look at my response and what triggers it - in me. Not what she is doing or not doing, saying or not saying, but what it is in me that is bringing forth a response.

Suratji, I hear you about relating. But I don't think there is someone out there I could relate to better. Maybe there is, but since the difficulty is coming from within me, then wherever I go... there I am

I am pretty excited today about where I am. That last session has taken me a while to process and it turns out to be a good thing that she's away this week, or most of it. I think I needed this time to sort some things out.

I feel like I can return to therapy and talk about the last session without it sounding (for once!) like I am just complaining about her. It isn't how I feel about it. I feel like whatever happened, it provided me with a way to see myself better and without the usual heavy dose of shame. And I'm interested in exploring my pushing and pulling away, which I hope will this time or another time be an exploring about moving closer. It is intimacy, although I struggle with that word because, to me, it implies sexual intimacy or some other kind of physical intimacy.
... lol. perhaps because I need to learn about it!

love you guys!

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

..... And I'm interested in exploring my pushing and pulling away, which I hope will this time or another time be an exploring about moving closer.

Echoes this is SO excellent. You are terrific!!