Holding hands with T and baby feelings

Rainbow I don't think anyone's suggesting you were abused or unloved. But you almost put your mother on a pedestal here, and I'm wondering if therapists who shatter your dreams are just getting a little too close to shattering an image you need to desperately defend for some reason. Please don't read "abuse" into it because that's not what I mean at all. Just that maybe your image of her is protecting you from seeing that she was unable to meet your needs in some crucial ways regardless of her love for you.

I can really understand that, Rainbow. I've never held my T's hand, so I can't say I've had that experience, but it makes so much sense to me. I also think hugs have the potential to be mechanical because they are brief, boundaried and structured, while hand holding, cuddling, and other forms of touch can be more natural, spontaneous, and enduring. For me, I think I'm realizing that what I want from T is touch that lasts longer. I don't necessarily need the "skin to skin" (though I totally understand that desire). What I feel like I want is for T to sit next to me and put her arms around me for longer than the length of a hug. Like maybe for a minute. I feel so silly writing that, but it's part of my own process of trying to figure out what I want and why I want it. In fact, I talked to T about the topic of touch today. I brought it up because it's been on my mind a lot lately (which you can take credit for, since it's on my mind because of your threads!) Generally, I hate TALKING about touch because it feels embarassing. For me, verbalizing my desire for touch makes me feel "wrong" or "needy" or "shameful." So, even though T and I do hug, I have a hard time talking about it and I feel embarassed asking for anything in addition to hugs. I finally got up the courage to ask her more about where her boundaries are (like does she offer physical comfort when a client cries). She said she does, under appropriate circumstances, so that was good news to hear-- but I'm still a ways off from actually asking for that. Even though I have a great relationship with my T and my T is willing to talk to me about touch and about our relationship, I just find it so embarrassing and difficult. It just feels "wrong" to ask for touch from anyone other than a significant other-- even though the kind of safe "mom-like" touch I want is completely different and not something I could even get from a significant other. I really want to be able to be more open about this with T, and tell her more about what I think/feel, but I often stop myself at a superficial level and repeat the basic things I've already told her. Well, I guess I know what work I need to do! Thanks again Rainbow for all of your threads on this topic. I find them really helpful!

PH: I'm thinking about what you wrote. Yes, it's hard to believe that my mother "didn't meet my needs in some crucial ways". It's easier to believe that it was my fault for not confiding in her. I don't think she could have done it differently; it's just the way she was. So she made mistakes that she didn't know about, that hurt me emotionally. Unintentionally. I can accept that, at least.

What does the word "love" mean, to an 8 yr old, a 38 yr old? It's variable, right? It's meaningless in this context. You were, in effect, neglected, for whatever reason. It doesn't really MATTER now why, at least not to ME, but my mother is still alive. But I can't talk to her, because that would still hurt me. Your task is SIMPLY, SIMPLY to figure out what effect this UNINTENTIONAL neglect had on you. So far we know it has you clinging to T's skirts (and me to my T's jeans!) - lucky for us they can handle it. I harbor no ill will towards my mother, she certainly had a much harder life than I did, or than I can even imagine she had. But I still have to figure out what defects her care or lack thereof left me with. It's hard to figure out what you're missing.

Rainbow do you see the pattern that you have of turning situations around to make them your responsibility instead of considering the possibility that your mother could not have met your need for safety due to her intense anxiety? When Treehouse wrote that you didn't tell your mom things because you felt a need to protect her, you agreed with that but then went on to say that she would have reassured you if you had told her. There's a conflict there. If you didn't have some need to protect her, you would have been able to tell her. It isn't that you didn't tell her because you just didn't want to -- it's more likely that you couldn't tell her because you felt the need to protect her. Yet you want to make sure everyone knows she would have reassured you if you did tell her, thereby turning it into your responsibility for not getting your needs met. Aren't you curious about this need to defend your mother even if it means making Little Rainbow responsible for her own needs?

hankster, the word "neglect" strikes me the wrong way. From what I posted, does it sound like my mother neglected me? That sounds as bad as "abuse" to me. I really want to know, or did you use that word in a generic way?

What is "unintentional neglect"? I think neglect is intentional.

Your finger was neglected: T/F? That's why I say unintentional. It's just the FACT of inaction, no intent one way or the other. Like the Buddhist concept of letting go of desire, let go of intent.
Let's go to the dictionary! (i have to log off for a minute). but it's like, I neglected to sign my rent check, a fancy way of saying I didn't sign it, that's all. you can't prove intent. it did have a bad result, but maybe I was innocently distracted.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=neglect

Neglect probably really isn't the right word.

Rainbow, I have wonderful, loving parents who really were doing the best job of raising us as they possibly could. And they did a good job. They were caring, affectionate, wonderful models for us. But were they perfect? Of course not. And in my case, they made same strategic errors, completely without malice, that caused me some long-term emotional damage. I wouldn't call what they did neglectful at all, just errors in judgement made completely under good intentions. I can't blame them for that. It isn't about blame. For me, it's just about understanding what happened and how it impacted me at the time and more importantly, how it still impacts me today.

As parents we want to always do right by our children, but sometimes, despite our best efforts and intentions, things don't go as planned, our childrens' personalities are different than we completely grasp, we realize later we were making assumption and decision based on incomplete information, etc. We do the best we can with the information we have under whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, and sometimes it just isn't the right thing even though we sincerely try to do everything right.

That's kind of what it sounds like in your childhood.

PH: I did think it was strange the way I posted it. I was thinking in the case of something physical, my mother would have known that there was nothing wrong with me if I asked her. But, are you saying that it was something SHE didn't do for me that made me not ask her something that made me miserable for years? That it wasn't my fault, for lack of a better word? It was my mother's place to ensure that I could tell or ask her anything, like the way my T reassures me.

Not to get off track, but my T told me that teenagers are often embarrassed to talk to their Moms. In the above instance, I WAS a teen. My T told me something her daughter didn't tell her.

In my case it was when I was a child too, though. I'm trying to think about this but getting confused. It would have been nice to have a Mom I could confide in. But how many people really HAD Moms like that? I guess I'm still defending her, aren't I? It's not so simple.

Thanks for continuing to post about this to me. I know you're trying hard and I'm stubborn.

scorpiosis: I'm glad my threads are helping you talk to your T!! I think we feel the same way about sustained touch. I also felt wrong and ashamed the first time I asked to hold her hand. But it was easier because it was "that child" who wanted it, not me. I know you will be able to tell your T what you want/need sooner than later!

Yes, I am saying it wasn't your fault. I am saying there was something she didn't do to meet your needs in some important way, but I'm not saying it was intentional. Abuse is intentional, and it's easy to get into splitting hairs over the definition of neglect but the bottom line is that some things just don't add up. You say she was overprotective and always anxious about your well-being, but she didn't notice you had a broken finger? She didn't notice you weren't using it or that you were careful about the position it was in so it wouldn't be so painful? My boys had broken and sprained fingers when they were young and there's just no way I could have not realized something was wrong or they were in pain. It's hard for me to fathom how an overprotective mother wouldn't notice a broken finger unless she was so wrapped up in her own anxiety over protecting you that maybe she couldn't tolerate the idea that she could do her best to protect you AND you could still get hurt.
And yeah, I agree that lots of teenagers are embarrassed to talk to their mothers about certain things but in your case (as in mine but for different reasons) the avoidance was much more pervasive and it seems to have started when you were quite young, at a time when it's natural for kids to go to their mother when something hurts.
I'm not saying you should jump to any conclusions but it would be helpful to you if you could allow yourself to be a little more curious about the things that don't add up instead of leaping to her defense so quickly. You won't understand what happened that is causing you so much pain today if you can't even entertain the possibility that she could have loved you very much but made some huge mistakes.

When a person is anxious and overprotective they are usually into controlling the environment and controlling other people so that they can get their own anxiety under control. I've experienced this myself. It has a lot to do with them. They are trying to cope. Anxiety or any other mental health issue takes energy away from focusing on others. When a parent has a mental health issue their ability to parent is compromised. Are they doing it on purpose? Absolutely not! They are trying to function and cope.

PH, you are doing a great job explaining here.

About neglect, a lot of being parented is about getting our needs met. If some of your needs were not met, they were neglected. Rainbow, you wouldn't be here today with us if this wouldn't have happened and you wouldn't have been struggling with your mental well being for all of these years. What didn't happen for you while growing up is very serious. I have spent years and years repairing what didn't happen for me while I was growing up. It is very serious business. Am I angry at my mom? No, not now, but I had to go through a period of anger.

Maybe this is what you are afraid of? You don't want to be angry with your mother for what you didn't get?

Wow, why didn't we see this before? The - not obsession exactly, but all the focus on holding hands. That would force T/mom to FOCUS on R8's hand, and notice the broken finger - not now, but 30 years ago. Not as the preemie who can't remember, but the child who does remember. The adult who can't forget but somehow did, or "forgot" to mention it. ((((Rainbow8)))) and a free manicure for that child's hands, if you ever get up to these parts

All this introspection right before leaving on a road trip. Okay. I have work to do in therapy. Yeah, why do I want to be in therapy for 15 years? Why do I need this forum? It adds up, I admit.

PH: My finger. I left out details but they probably don't matter. I was 10 and I put a band-aid on it. I must not have been in that much pain. Maybe I mentioned it at some point to my Mom, maybe not. Later on I saw that it didn't straighten and never did. I was scared of doctors and pain. But you're right. When it looked funny and didn't heal, my Mom should have just taken me to the dr. without giving me a choice. If it had hurt a lot, I'm sure I would have complained.

I know. I'm being defensive again. I can see that. I just can't figure it out. My Mom died of cancer. She was so sad that she wouldn't be able to see her only grandchild (at the time) grow up. I am sad that she didn't get to know her grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I miss her.

Another sad aspect is that I repeated this pattern with my kids. My d. had some serious problems and she went to great extremes not to tell her or my H. I guess she didn't feel safe with us and didn't want me to worry about her.

I wish I could have my session today. I have to put it all on hold for a couple of weeks unless I choose to email her.

I am not angry with my mother, though. She was a good mother. I will have to discuss with my T about neglect. I don't think my T will use that word. She already told me that we didn't mesh right. I can tolerate hearing that better.

This shows that this is a sore spot. Sore spots are where the healing is at.

Rainbow. Ask yourself questions instead of giving me the answers. Why didn't my very protective mother notice the bandaid on my finger? Why didn't a finger that was injured enough to be misshapen cause serious pain? Could I have dissociated the pain away for some reason? Why would I need to do that? Why didn't my very protective mother ever notice its shape? Could she have noticed but maybe I repressed that memory for some reason?
I understand that you love and miss your mom. But you can love her and miss her and still wonder about what happened in your childhood. They're not mutually exclusive. But if you want to get past this stuff I really think you need to start taking the focus off how good it feels to have your hand held and start thinking about how bad it must have felt to hide your pain. Continuing to focus on how good it feels now allows you to avoid remembering how bad it felt when you were a child. When you finally get in touch with those painful feelings, you will likely have a much better understanding of why it feels so good to have your hand held now.

That's what my T says too, I was not a good match to my parents. He says my parents remind him more of his grandparents, both with their old-country ways.

I have to leave now. I can't deal with this on my own. I'm making too much of things only I know the truth about. My finger was not such a big deal. I think I'm writing it all wrong and giving the wrong impression. I will think about it on the road, PH. You've given me a lot to think about but anymore should be done with my T. Thank you. I'm not angry, just defensive and I really do need to pack the car with my H now!!!

I've been reading all this thread-- it's interesting,
and rainbow-- I feel for you

I think(and it might be just the way I think) that some are making this a much more serious thing than it is.
You've gotten married(and mostly happily, I'm guessing), had children and now grandchildren. I don't know about your schooling or career but I've not heard you complain on those subjects. Seems you've lived a fairly great life so far.
You said yourself that your daughter did the same thing around you as you did around your mom. I really don't think the word "neglect" with this kind of situation is fitting.
I think "short coming" fits better-- IMO. It's more like -- NOT having the knowledge.
When someone - "neglects" -- they have the INFO-- they just don't do it-- but "short coming" can be the person just didn't know/wasn't aware.
Does that make sense?
I wouldn't classify what your mom did to you as neglect anymore than I would say you neglected your daughter. Neither of you knew better at the time, we do the best we can(if we are loving people)
LIFE is NOT perfect. there are always "short comings".

I hope you have a good trip and that you don't mull over too much about things.

Hope I've not offended anyone-- it's surely not my intention, just wanted to help Rainbow.

fins

((((((fins))))))) You are so good.

I agree with your assessment of "neglect" vs. "shortcoming". I think that maybe Rainbow's needs were neglected, but not in an intentional way at all. Like you said, simply because of a shortcoming, which we ALL have. I know that I am not a "perfect" parent to my boys (at all!), but I know I'm doing the best I can. Just like Rainbow's mom did and just like Rainbow did. My boys will certainly grow up and have things from their childhood that they wish I had done differently. I don't think that makes me a bad mom..just human. Just like ALL of us

I think if this feels like a big deal, it's because it's such a big deal to Rainbow...or at least, it seems that way to me. She posts about it a lot and frets about it a lot. For me, when I have finally got to the bottom of certain things, I've been able to find some relief. To forgive myself for my reactions, to understand why I am the way I am, to become more empowered to make the changes I want to make. My wish for Rainbow is that she can find that same relief.
to you, fin And rainbow And all of us

Rainbow, I know you're going on a road trip now, but I want to write this before I forget. What strikes me the most about this thread is that the very thing you avoided at all costs with your mother (sharing about yourself) is the same thing you are absolutely compelled to do with your T(s). You are compelled to tell your Ts *everything*, no matter how embarrassing or humiliating it may be. You tell them all about your feelings, your behaviors, your physical reactions (and sore toes).

THIS is your pattern. THIS is what you missed out on.
And it wasn't in the incubator. It wasn't when your brother was late to pick you up from school. It was throughout your whole life.

Food for thought.

I think the word neglect has taken on a malignant connotation because of its association with child abuse, but if you look the word up (i have a link earlier), it really just means to fail to act. I guess what I am saying is, it takes a LOT of neglect to add up to a NEGLECTED child; a couple of incidents of neglect, maybe not. Probably a more lenient standard than with abuse. Because with neglect, things can just slip by ya, no? But too much, and you're talking CPTSD? That's how I look at it. Also, did the parents favor one child and "neglect" the other, for whatever reason - illness, gender, skills, appearance, personality.

hi rain just sending you some big hugs and have a piecefull and quiet vacation.the world will be here when you get back i promice. give yourself a rest if you can and enjoy