[pachyderm]

Starting a thread on the use of words in psychotherapy. Those who do not want to be bothered with such a seemingly irrelevant topic can ignore it.

(Possibly side note: how and why does the use of words lead to changes in the brain?)

This is something that I have found very hard to cope with in therapy, up to now: people not using words carefully or accurately. Maybe I am alone in this, but it has really led me down many a slippery slope to repeated confusion and terror. It feels like a repeat of childhood where my mother could out-think me and out-argue me and out-justify me into a horrible panic.

Here is one not particularly good example of the kind of thing I mean, from a recent thread:

Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

These words, appearing to be in the form of questions, have led me in the past to try to provide answers to the questions, and when those answers do not seem to impress the persons who ask, do not seem to be taken as anything that needs to be paid attention to, do not seem to satisfy the questioner, then they can lead me to one more spiral into despair, one more evidence of my failure.

After many, many attempts to understand what was going wrong, I have come to the realization that many people do not take care to use words accurately, do not even realize that there is much reason why they should try. Things such as the "questions" above can be questions, can be intended to actually produce information. But they can also be simply expressions of impatience on the part of the one who poses them. Is the person actually wanting to know why something is happening, or do they only want you to stop doing it so you no longer bother them? Or are they simply trying to put you one-down?

That kind of person will generally not even know that they are doing that. That kind of person will not have a clear idea of their own motivations. People who do not have a clear idea of their own motivations will generally not care about phrasing things carefully so that their meanings are clear. They think what they are saying should be "obvious" and if you don't understand them, you are a dolt. I have been the dolt many times in the past. I get confused when the words and the meanings behind them do not match. Or, I have been confused a lot in the past. Not so much now.

Now I am confident enough in my own understanding to believe that the words of others often cover up what they really are doing. Now I am seeing that I can accept that, can cope with that, do not always require that other people are particularly self-aware. But in those times when I need someone to depend on, I still have a hard time coping when the words and their actual meanings are at variance. Not just words, but how they are used, everything around them, tones of voice, pacing, "body language" -- all together tell you what the real meaning is.

In fact, I find one of the most enjoyable things for me to do, when I am feeling "well", is to get some idea of what people are "saying" behind what they appear to be saying, even when they are trying their darndest to cover it up. Of course, I am capable of doing this too -- only now I am seeing it, I am seeing why, and I am getting where I have to do it less and less. It can be good!

No one can say what anothers true intent is. In therapy we get to ask and if a misunderstanding arises then its talked through. I don't think because someone isn't perfect in their speech/words then theirs a hidden agenda, that's paranoia.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by earthmamma

No one can say what anothers true intent is. In therapy we get to ask and if a misunderstanding arises then its talked through. I don't think because someone isn't perfect in their speech/words then theirs a hidden agenda, that's paranoia.

Is that what I said? True intent? I said get some idea of what people are "saying" behind what they appear to be saying. Get some idea. It can be extremely enjoyable, and I dare say extremely valuable.

I love this thread, Pachy. I don't have time to write a thoughtful response right now, but I'll be back!

[stopdog]

I find a lack of precise word choice to be sloppy. It is one of the many things I find frustrating about that therapist because she does not care about language. I frustrate myself because I am unable to find the precise language for some of what I try to explain in therapy.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I frustrate myself because I am unable to find the precise language for some of what I try to explain in therapy.

Sometimes it takes me hours -- even longer -- to formulate what I want to say. Some of you may have noticed that even at that I don't always succeed!

[granite1]

pachy i can understand where you are coming from but do you ever think that someone may just say something without any other meaning behind it.it must be so hard to be so mistrustful at times and feel the world is so disingenuous.i guess sometimes i hate to say things because someone is always trying to say i mean something else and not taking me for what i have just said

Well I read "true meaning", and we can never know someones true meaning until we hear it in many ways. I think that goes for ourselfs, what we say and how we say depends on where we are in our own understanding of true meaning.

[skysblue]

Pachy, communication is messy under the best of circumstances. I'm sure you know about the war that happened because of a lack of a comma in a written treaty,(From "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss). One of my favorite parts of that book is a sentence that changes meaning depending on the punctuation. Try it - what is the meaning of this sentence? Where should any punctuation be inserted?

"A woman without her man is nothing."

Even if I work hard to find what I think is the exact word to describe what I mean, that exact word only reflects precisely the personal meaning I give it. That word may have a subtly different meaning for another person.

I've worked a lot with English language learners, have studied many foreign languages, have married a person whose native language is not English and have studied communication. From my experience, I believe it is impossible to have absolute clarity when we discuss ideas and concepts and thoughts and feelings.

Each person has their own unique relationship with 'words'. Some people can use words quite well and can elucidate their ideas with expertise. Others may flounder trying to find a way to express what they mean. Words, language, is probably a lesser method of real connection between human beings. Those of us on the web have only words at our command and therefore we're handicapped in some way. It's when we engage people in person and can 'feel' their energy that we're better equipped to understand the words that they use. Still difficult (probably impossible to do it perfectly) but better.

So, what are we to do? Only our best. We fumble and miscommunicate but all we can do is to keep on trying.

[unaluna]

I don't exactly stutter, but I have a hard time sometimes getting words out. My parents learned English as adults. I was pushed into the sciences, I wish I had spent more time developing my writing and speaking skills. So I hope people will forgive me that.

Regarding people's intent on PC - if I read something between the lines, that is the issue I will address. That is what is created from the OP plus me, and that is what I hope to get from my T, and from PC - what I can't see from my own perspective.

I feel manipulated when someone comes on here and asks a question but they deliberately withhold relevant info. But you can usually sniff those out, and I just wait until more info comes.

I thought it was interesting and relevant here what someone posted about being an empath. I felt that way, but T's over the years have disabused me of the notion, and my experience this week with my T clinched it. Someone else said (paraphrasing) empath means you had to be able to read your parent in order to survive - that was true for me. We don't have the right to assume what other people are thinking or feeling; we don't NEED that responsibility (codependent much?). They have the right and the responsibility to tell us. If we think we know how they feel, we are simply saying that we cannot tolerate how they REALLY might feel, so we will provide a feeling for them IN OUR MINDS that we CAN tolerate.

This is WAY different from sitting, and talking, back and forth, about how you're both FEEEEELING, and getting a little weepy in there.

I don't know if i'm on topic or not!

[Perna]

My T and I worked the last 9 years on this! We were never "on the same page" until the last year or two because I kept insisting on an "exact" meaning for things and she never seemed to get it right. For me, it was about control and safety; control of the "space" between T and myself.

I could decide how close she got by whether I agreed with her wording or not. She literally had to "chase" me around -- I'd talk about the "rectangle thing" and she'd ask, "A table?" and I'd say, "It was a wooden rectangle" and she's say, "A wooden table?" and I'd say, "No, an oak table" and she'd say, "An oak table" and I'd say, "Well, it was only part oak. . ." on and on.

My stepmother was very controlling and I had no way to "combat" her other than passive resistance. She'd ask questions with no good answers, "Why did you do that?" and asking questions came to mean the other person was out to get me. Eventually my T and I caught on to that and were able to start working on the idea that questions don't just have that meaning; they can also be someone's sincere interest in knowing the answer and in gathering information, not to hurt me, but to better understand me. Of course, understanding me felt too close, I felt we would merge and I wouldn't know how to be myself and not the other again, they would have trapped me by understanding me.

Gradually I was better able to get a sense of the other person and how the understanding of me is not Me, but just the other person's understanding; I could stay myself and countenance their understanding as a separate thing.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by granite1

pachy i can understand where you are coming from but do you ever think that someone may just say something without any other meaning behind it.it must be so hard to be so mistrustful at times and feel the world is so disingenuous.

Experience has taught me that. I must say, though, that there probably are a lot of people who never grew up with some kind of war taking place in their family, so they don't have to pretend. I don't know how many of us here had that kind of family, though.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by skysblue

I'm sure you know about the war that happened because of a lack of a comma in a written treaty,(From "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss).

I do proofreading sometimes. We are taught (by some) to OMIT the second comma in all cases. It bugs me, because it CAN change the meaning!

Each person has their own unique relationship with 'words'. Some people can use words quite well and can elucidate their ideas with expertise. Others may flounder trying to find a way to express what they mean.

Yes; if there is good will enough, people can, even when they find it hard to express themselves, work things out in a mutual way, just by asking questions about what the other means, and continuing the communication.

I think we all grew up like that,

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by hankster

I thought it was interesting and relevant here what someone posted about being an empath. I felt that way, but T's over the years have disabused me of the notion, and my experience this week with my T clinched it. Someone else said (paraphrasing) empath means you had to be able to read your parent in order to survive - that was true for me. We don't have the right to assume what other people are thinking or feeling; we don't NEED that responsibility (codependent much?). They have the right and the responsibility to tell us.

Well... are you going to insist that everyone assume that responsibility? I don't think you will get very far! It is possible to operate with people whose lives have taught them NOT to be clear; in those cases insisting that they be straightforward I think is not very productive.

If we think we know how they feel, we are simply saying that we cannot tolerate how they REALLY might feel, so we will provide a feeling for them IN OUR MINDS that we CAN tolerate.

Now that is an interpretation of what is going on, always, that I don't agree with!

[ECHOES]

Who gets to define "accurate"? And what is "accurate" one day may not be the next. Why such pressure, such rigidity?

The precise use of words is extremely important to me. It makes me a nightmare of a client to a Rogerian therapist, who are always trying to "mirror" back to you what you've said them. I think my T is oriented in this direction, and in the early months of my therapy with him, we would have rounds where he would "mirror" and I would tell him that he missed the boat, wasn't getting it right. Then he'd try it again, I'd correct him once again. He told me that I liked to be "precise" about things.

But now I've realized that he doesn't do this much anymore. Instead, he tells me something from his own experience that he relates to what I'm saying. Clever trick, like I'm going to tell him that his own life experience is wrong?

Anne

I thought it was interesting and relevant here what someone posted about being an empath. I felt that way, but T's over the years have disabused me of the notion, and my experience this week with my T clinched it. Someone else said (paraphrasing) empath means you had to be able to read your parent in order to survive - that was true for me. We don't have the right to assume what other people are thinking or feeling; we don't NEED that responsibility (codependent much?). They have the right and the responsibility to tell us. If we think we know how they feel, we are simply saying that we cannot tolerate how they REALLY might feel, so we will provide a feeling for them IN OUR MINDS that we CAN tolerate.

I agree. I used to think I was an empath too and then I realized how arrogant it was to say I know what someone is feeling. There are a LOT of people who CAN hide their feelings and saying I know what someone is feeling is just wrong on so many counts.

[Sannah]

I'm glad that you are making progress on this issue Pachy!

I have found that few people really want to get to know others and understand them.

I also remember trying to find my way around 15 years ago and finding that no one around me understood. I eventually found my way (without the help of others!).

I agree with so many of the replies here. Hopefully this thread will help you to understand your relationship with the words of others and what it means to you. I especially like Perna's reply that words can help you maintain a distance from others. Maybe what drives you crazy is also what helps you?? I've recently understood what I have done to keep people back and give me space. This need for space for myself was just a habit and not really something that I still needed to continue to do.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Well... are you going to insist that everyone assume that responsibility?

No, not INSIST! More like gently give them the space? But I think people in my past that I wanted to be friends with rejected me because they recognized I did that, did not give them space to be themselves, have their own reactions. I didn't believe myself to be a game-player, but it kinda is, isn't it? You're not being authentic. Hmm - I left myself vulnerable to game-players.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Now that is an interpretation of what is going on, always, that I don't agree with!

Yeah, I think it's just what *I* was ALWAYS doing! It's like they say, the more you know (like about a certain subject), the more you realize you DON'T know.

[granite1]

probibly not many

[elliemay]

The burden of communication lies both with the speaker and the listener. Often what is said correctly is not heard correctly. Other times, what was correctly heard was not said correctly.

Outside of rigid, specified, mutually agreed upon definition and jargon required by some professions human communication is fraught with problems.

The intent of both the listener and the speaker comes into play. Everything on both sides goes through a filter.

Because of the all too human processing and interpretation, even the most precise, accurate, perfect word to one, will not be that way to another. I think all we can strive for is honesty in communication with others.

IMO that honesty is much harder for the listener than the speaker. Much much harder. It takes a whole lot of courage to actually listen. Speaking with a pure heart is a cake walk compared to listening with one.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by roseleigh7

I agree. I used to think I was an empath too and then I realized how arrogant it was to say I know what someone is feeling. There are a LOT of people who CAN hide their feelings and saying I know what someone is feeling is just wrong on so many counts.

I agree. Most of what we presume to be an empathic sense is actually just our brain has been subconsciously programmed to interpret something in one way.

Yes, a lot of us had to read our parents' moods very very well in order to protect ourselves, but really, how correct is it to generalize that reading to others?

I don't think it gives others a fair chance, and it can certainly deprive us of some wonderful things if we let our danger filters just write it off.

That's not to say to completely ignore a gut feeling that something is "off" because we can have an almost preternatural sense of when our physical safety is on the line, but our emotional safety? Not so sure about that.

[pegasus]

(((((( pachyderm )))))))

Words in childhood meant 'verbal and emotional abuse.' As an adult we learn that words can also mean 'honesty, compassion and caring.'

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Starting a thread on the use of words in psychotherapy. Those who do not want to be bothered with such a seemingly irrelevant topic can ignore it.

I don't find it irrelevant. My favorite book on psychotherapy is, Making Contact: Uses of Language in Psychotherapy by Leston Havens. He discusses the importance of words in therapy and gives many examples of how a therapist can use words to increase or decrease the distance between client and therapist (depending on what the client needs), or promote healing, independence, whatever... I felt while reading it, "I wanna be like this when I grow up", lol. It was just that good, at least to me.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

When reading things on a message board, or in writing anywhere, I tend to try to interpret carefully. Without the benefit of tone or expression that we experience in face to face conversation, it can be hard to know what a person meant in writing. So if it were me reading those questions and responding, I would take the questions at face value and answer them straight. I would assume the person wants information. If I was with the person and could hear their inflection and tone and see their face, I might interpret the words differently and so respond differently. But in writing, I try to take the words at face value and assume the person meant what they wrote. This probably leads me to make some errors in interpretation when reading people's words, but I think of it as erring on the side of caution. If I think the person words do not match what they may really be saying, I may ask for clarification, if it is that important to me to really understand.

If a person continually says/writes things that don't match what they are "saying" behind the words, then I think that person has some work to do in therapy (or on their own) on achieving better congruence! I don't particularly find it enjoyable to understand what is behind what someone might be saying, but a good skill to have, perhaps very important for survival. (I don't find it unenjoyable either, just neutral, something we all have to do every day.) I also think asking for clarification without making too many assumptions can be helpful too. If nothing else, it helps educate the other person that they have been unclear and perhaps they will become better communicators as a result.

I find as I am getting older, I don't always find the right or most accurate word immediately. That can get a little frustrating, as I like to use language accurately and to promote closeness or distance too as Havens wrote in his book. I think this experience of getting older and becoming impaired at language use (that's an overstatement for now, but I see the trend) gives me more sympathy for people who are "sloppy" with language. Maybe their brain just can't do it! Or maybe they know they are sloppy so make up for it by clear facial expressions, emphatic tone of voice, etc. In any case, the skills of seeing beneath the words and of asking for clarification are so so useful. I hope others will be charitable with me as I continue to age and probably have more and more difficulty coming up with the best words for the situation.

I'm very trustful of my therapist and if I don't understand his words, I just tell him (if it seems important for me to know). We may go through several rounds of clarification until understanding is achieved. He does the same to me. There is a good feeling when we finally come to mutual understanding on an important point, an "aha" moment that draws us closer in this shared little triumph.

We have definitely gone back and forth on the use of specific words. Early in therapy he used the word "abuse" to describe some events of my life, and I could not tolerate that word! It was a huge stumbling block to me and would derail whatever we were trying to achieve whenever he used it. We talked a lot about his use of that word and what it meant to me that I reacted so strongly when I heard it. He also would not substitute another word for abuse that I was more comfortable with. He told me it would be minimizing what had happened to me to not use the word abuse, so I was just going to have to deal with him saying it. With time, lots of time, I became better able to hear that word as I explored more deeply what I had experienced in the past.

More recently, he has used the words "dreams" and "vision" to describe what I wanted to discuss when I told him there were areas in my life I wanted to work on. I didn't like his use of those words, as I didn't want to have a big, deep talk on dreams and vision, the future, etc. I wanted more of a surface talk about practical stuff in the short term. Whenever he used those words, I would say no, that's not want I want to talk about. His use of those words hindered me from having the discussion. This happened several times... At some point there was a shift. He didn't substitute other words for the ones that spooked me, but he just stopped talking about it, sat back and said he was going to let me take the lead (and use the words I wanted). That was just such a relief to me that I could then move forward with the discussion.

I really like this thread and hearing everyone's diverse thoughts and experiences. What I wrote is way too long--sorry, all--but it's such an interesting topic!