[Ygrec23]

New thread. A carryover from "Over 'til It's Over."

The "psychopathology" is just the necessary tie-in with psychotherapy.

Dive right in.

[skysblue]

O.k. - so we don't need to tie in psychopathology to enlightenment, right? Cuz I wouldn't know where to start. Oh - actually I don't know where to start anyways. I think Mcl should lead us since she began by giving you the 'enlightened' label.

[mcl6136]

Enlightenment is a mirage...but when you're really thirsty....

I can lead everyone here TOWARDS enlightenment, but I will not know when we arrive.

Wait a moment.....perhaps we are already there?

I think that's the point, right?

[Chopin99]

I don't think enlightenment is a form of psychopathology; however, I do feel that since enlightenment is usually not reached or understood by people falling within the statistical mean of society, those people would call it "abnormal." I don't believe in "normal/abnormal"; there is only a statistical mean that falls in the middle of a continuum.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by mcl6136

Enlightenment is a mirage...but when you're really thirsty....

I can lead everyone here TOWARDS enlightenment, but I will not know when we arrive.

Wait a moment.....perhaps we are already there?

I think that's the point, right?

Awesome - a leader! Oh, but leading here? hmmmm

And so your comment about Ygrec and enlightenment - enlighten us.

[skysblue]

I just finished attending a multi-week seminar addressing the possible co-junction (?) between psychosis and spirituality. Who can judge if we're psychotic or enlightened? So, Ygrec, maybe Mcl was actually pointing out your psychosis. (you know I'm joking, right?)

[Perna]

Assuming enlightenment is what you have observed in yourself since about the age of 60 (big assumption), I have a theory about that.

I am only 61 so probably not as enlightened but it occurred to me a couple weeks ago that until we retire from the world -- our jobs are done, our families raised, we have the house, the education, the legal voting/drinking age, have had the career, the grandchildren are here, etc.; all that came before was a looking "forward" and now we are in a period of looking "back" because the only really big thing in the future is the, no doubt enlightening, adventure of death. We have quit listening to the current "in" music, sometimes don't know what day it is and often don't know what date :-) and are a bit slower to get the latest technical toys.

Yes, we have interests in retirement, engagements, learn new things, enjoy our lives but the focus of "what next" is pretty much gone? We literally can't look forward so we only have our actual experience from behind us and what we feel it "means" to go on.

Now we can look back and tell the 40 year olds there won't always be the feeling of doing a zillion things at once and feeling one is spinning one's wheels and the 50 years that the tiredness is probably never going to go away again. We can calmly pick out the things we did that we now see helped us deal with the kids, the schools, the obnoxious boss, how to take a minute for one's self and relate those personal tips to those younger than we are. Because it comes from us, first hand, instead of from a book or an "expert" (love those male gynecologists telling women what it is like having a baby :-) it has a different ring to it, an attractive first-person, "knowing" ring that gets thought of as "wisdom" or "enlightenment" :-)

All my "big" life experiences are done and available for my perusal and arranging to suit me, retelling, savoring. Sure, my husband or I may get critically ill and/or die and that will be a new experience but I have been critically ill and dealt with my parents in this stage in their life so have a little experience with others being critically ill and dying. I do not have ultimate experience of this stage in my life yet though, as I'm "in" it. But I don't have anyone "ahead" of me who I want to tell about this stage, wow them with my expertise because everybody ahead of me is in the exact same stage of life.

It's like when your parent told you as a teen you'd understand when you were grown and had kids of your own; you sneered until you were grown and had kids of your own You were trying to move forward, get "ahead", pass the next milestone, understand your life's mysteries before they happened so when they did, you'd have a clue and "do" them right. Well, now most of them are done and they were done "right" because I'm still here!

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Awesome - a leader! Oh, but leading here? hmmmm

And so your comment about Ygrec and enlightenment - enlighten us.

I have studied a lot of zen and am a long way from enlightenment. And in terms of leading, I had an old boss who told me, YOU CANNOT LEAD AND WILL NOT FOLLOW.

I was stunned but it has turned out to be true

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by mcl6136

YOU CANNOT LEAD AND WILL NOT FOLLOW.

So - stuck?? Or what is that saying, "hurry up and be still"? Or is it, "don't just do something, sit there."?

[Perna]

Ah, the enlightening comments from our bosses and teachers. I still remember the 7th grade math teacher's comment on my report card: "Good ability, poor performance".

[Ygrec23]

People.

Why don't we start by trying to agree on a definition of enlightenment, whatever it may be. Even if none of us is there yet, as none of us appear to be.

Take care.

[Ygrec23]

Enlightenment: a six-pack of Heineken?

[Ygrec23]

Enlightenment: the loss of your virginity?

[Ygrec23]

Enlightenment: the first time you heard Schubert's Quintet in C Major?

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Why don't we start by trying to agree on a definition of enlightenment, whatever it may be.

I'll borrow by analogy (but not otherwise similar) from Justice Stewart's definition of pornography: I'll know it when I see it.

Anne

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

I'll borrow by analogy (but not otherwise similar) from Justice Stewart's definition of pornography: I'll know it when I see it. Anne

How?

[bluemountains]

I am not "grown" enough to enter your discussion on the definition of enlightenment. I am just reeling from Perna's enlightening statement that for me, at 50, the tiredness is never going away again!

As usual, thank you to this group of posters who always enlighten me! Is there a definition in there somewhere?

Bluemountains

[bluemountains]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

People.

Why don't we start by trying to agree on a definition of enlightenment, whatever it may be. Even if none of us is there yet, as none of us appear to be.

Take care.

I read this again, Ygrec...I'm confused, not enlightened, why do you say none of us is there yet? I use the statement at times with my students, "Please, enlighten me!" and they do with many things I have yet to learn until that particular time, so I am not sure that wisdom, which I equate with life experience, is the same as enlightenment.

I'll think about this some more...

Bluemountains

I don't think that anyone reaches "enlightenment"!
It is a journey not a destination.
Just my take on things

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Enlightenment: a six-pack of Heineken?

pleasure=enlightenment????

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by mcl6136

I have studied a lot of zen and am a long way from enlightenment. And in terms of leading, I had an old boss who told me, YOU CANNOT LEAD AND WILL NOT FOLLOW.

I was stunned but it has turned out to be true

So you work for yourself now?

[Inedible]

Enlightenment is the term used to translate terms like Satori and Moksha, but it isn't the right word really. It just stuck. It isn't like being a Saint; it is much more specific and it doesn't require a lifetime of being on one's best behavior. It has to be described in negative terms, and that is like describing a big empty room by listing all the things that aren't in it. It also isn't enough to consciously know things about Enlightenment. This is about that part of you in the back of your mind that knows better but gets in trouble anyway.

I think perna's explaination is as enlightened as we can get...she talks about things we are sure about, our experiences. If we want to stop a train we have to be sure the train exists we cannot stop a train that doesnt exist. we can only be enlightened in this realm.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by bluemountains

I am not "grown" enough to enter your discussion on the definition of enlightenment. I am just reeling from Perna's enlightening statement that for me, at 50, the tiredness is never going away again! As usual, thank you to this group of posters who always enlighten me! Is there a definition in there somewhere? Bluemountains

Hi, Blue! This has nothing to do with enlightenment, but I have to disagree, strongly, with what Perna said. The tiredness may well have become HER normal state but it sure hasn't become mine, and I'm a bit older than Perna, I think. I believe you can look forward not to years, but to decades of healthy, bouncy, energetic, not-tired life. It's quite possible. Take care!

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by bluemountains

I read this again, Ygrec...I'm confused, not enlightened, why do you say none of us is there yet? I use the statement at times with my students, "Please, enlighten me!" and they do with many things I have yet to learn until that particular time, so I am not sure that wisdom, which I equate with life experience, is the same as enlightenment. I'll think about this some more... Bluemountains

Well, of course I could be wrong, but the reason I wrote that was because in the few posts that preceded that one all the posters were denying being enlightened. And I myself am certainly not enlightened. There may well be enlightened folk wandering around PC, but they're taking their time showing up in this thread! Take care.