[InTherapy]

So, after T spent 2 hours calming me down on the phone last Tuesday, he suggested that I might need something "supplemental" to our sessions. Because it's not like I told him 3 times that seeing him once a week wasn't enough support for me right now...

Bit I still him anyway.

So Yesterday I met with Group T. I tried to go in with an open mind, but honestly, I already had kind of a bad feeling about her. I say this because when I talked to her on the phone, she seemed shocked when I asked her a question, and never did answer it. I was like, hrm...

So at first things were okay when I met with her for my "consultation". That helped calm me down.

But about half way through... things changed.

It started when she did something with me called "heartmath". Before we began, she told me that I had to uncross my legs and put them flat on the floor. Then she told me that the reason I was crossing my legs is that "it's a defense mechanism."

This annoyed me, because she had talked to me for maybe 20 minutes, and thinks she knows my defense mechanisms? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.

So, heartmath was this guided mediation thing, and she kept talking about leaving my headspace and going to my heartspace, rambling on about how there were more neurons in your heart than in your head... I thought it sounded really pseduo-sciency, and when I was done with it, I told her so.

So then we got into a bit of a debate about fetal heart monitors (because that was her "scientific proof" because it was all "Evidence based" (her two favorite phrases in the English Language, apparently...) and I started telling her how that was sort of not convincing to me, because there's been research done showing that fetal heart monitors, while great at identifying some problems, have a LOT of false positives and tons of women get unnecessary C-Sections every year because of them.

Anyway, I could see this was getting us nowhere so I changed the subject. (Isn't that HER job, not mine? And, incidentally, I looked up heartmath, and I can't find much to support it, but I found more than one article refuting it.)

So she tells me that a lot of people have "misnomers about DBT", and I start smirking, because that's not what misnomer means. I think she meant misconception. So she asks what I'm laughing at, and I try to be nice, and I say, "Isn't a misnomer when something is named badly? Like those gumball trees that really make spiky seeds?" And she says, "yes." and just looks at me for a minute and goes, "Are you correcting my English?" And I say, laughing, trying not to be mean or too serious, "Yeah, I guess I am."

And then SHE crosses HER legs and rolls her eyes and says, "That's fine. I'm not mad. You can correct my english."

And I look at her and say, (because screw it, she did it to me,) "Is that why you're crossing your legs? A defense mechanism? And rolling your eyes? Because your not mad?"

At this point she completely lost control of the session by lying to me.

She goes, "I'm not mad. I'm mirroring you. Ask [T], he does it to you too."

At this point I am PISSED. She's straight up lying to me, and she thinks she knows my T and how he works?

So I say, "No, he doesn't mirror me. He always sits in the same way, (and I describe how he sits and mimic it) and I tell her about the tapping he always does with his right foot and how he always wears black shoes on Mondays and brown ones on Wednesdays."

And she just looks shocked.

It gets worse from there, and believe me, I'm gonna write it out, because I need to GET it out, but, that's it for now.

I know this was probably very difficult, and it certainly doesn't sound therapuetic, but I have to tell you I love the way you wrote about it. I actually chuckled out loud about the "misnomer" thing.

Also, the brain has about 100 billion neurons (and up to one quadrillion synapses- neuron connection points). The heart has about 40,000 and they're all used for, um, beating.

[pbutton]

Oh wow, this sounds totally awful. I'm not digging this T at all.

I do have to admit that I'm quite entertained by your responses.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by InTherapy

But about half way through... things changed.

It started when she did something with me called "heartmath". Before we began, she told me that I had to uncross my legs and put them flat on the floor. Then she told me that the reason I was crossing my legs is that "it's a defense mechanism."

This annoyed me, because she had talked to me for maybe 20 minutes, and thinks she knows my defense mechanisms? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, folks.

So, heartmath was this guided mediation thing, and she kept talking about leaving my headspace and going to my heartspace, rambling on about how there were more neurons in your heart than in your head... I thought it sounded really pseduo-sciency, and when I was done with it, I told her so.

So then we got into a bit of a debate about fetal heart monitors (because that was her "scientific proof" because it was all "Evidence based" (her two favorite phrases in the English Language, apparently...) and I started telling her how that was sort of not convincing to me, because there's been research done showing that fetal heart monitors, while great at identifying some problems, have a LOT of false positives and tons of women get unnecessary C-Sections every year because of them.

Anyway, I could see this was getting us nowhere so I changed the subject. (Isn't that HER job, not mine? And, incidentally, I looked up heartmath, and I can't find much to support it, but I found more than one article refuting it.)

So she tells me that a lot of people have "misnomers about DBT", and I start smirking, because that's not what misnomer means. I think she meant misconception. So she asks what I'm laughing at, and I try to be nice, and I say, "Isn't a misnomer when something is named badly? Like those gumball trees that really make spiky seeds?" And she says, "yes." and just looks at me for a minute and goes, "Are you correcting my English?" And I say, laughing, trying not to be mean or too serious, "Yeah, I guess I am."

And then SHE crosses HER legs and rolls her eyes and says, "That's fine. I'm not mad. You can correct my english."

And I look at her and say, (because screw it, she did it to me,) "Is that why you're crossing your legs? A defense mechanism? And rolling your eyes? Because your not mad?"

At this point she completely lost control of the session by lying to me.

She goes, "I'm not mad. I'm mirroring you. Ask [T], he does it to you too."

At this point I am PISSED. She's straight up lying to me, and she thinks she knows my T and how he works?

So I say, "No, he doesn't mirror me. He always sits in the same way, (and I describe how he sits and mimic it) and I tell her about the tapping he always does with his right foot and how he always wears black shoes on Mondays and brown ones on Wednesdays."

You're too smart for this woman!

I'm sure it's practitioners like this who say the intelligent patients are the hardest. Her technique requires a degree of gullibility and ignorance on the part of the patient.

[pbutton]

And FWIW my T crosses his legs! Points his foot at me and does the hand on each armrest open upper body thingie, but his legs are usually crossed.

[unaluna]

No wonder my T said other T's are not as smart as we think. I think SHE'S a misnomer! Did she get her license from the back of the Cap'n Crunch box? I can't believe you called her on her BS, you're my hero!

[InTherapy]

Hi guys, thanks for your responses. I do think that maybe she's not the smartest therapist I've ever had. I don't have a problem with that; what I have a problem with is her LYING TO ME and her inability to control the session.

Back to my story:

So she's looking shocked at my very detailed description of how my T acts (because who can make up that many details so quickly?) And she asks me if I ever "call him on it." And I look at her and say, "why in the world would I care that he's tapping his foot?!"

So we kind of moved on after that.

I don't know why, but for some reason she asked me how old my T was. I said, "23." (because he is.) And she flat out denied it. She goes, "No. That's impossible."

Maybe it shouldn't've irritated me as much as it did, but that got under my skin. Why would I lie about that? Just because MOST people can't get through school that fast doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. And I really like my T. I think he is fantastic. So I felt a little protective I guess. So I kind of got in her face and said, "Maybe he took a lot of AP classes in high school. Maybe he took classes every semester, I don't know. BUT HE IS TWENTY THREE."

So after that, we started talking about the rules of the DBT group. They're pretty standard: be respectful, no sexual relationships, etc. Then we get to the paperwork. She wants me to sign a release both giving her permission to share things with my main T and giving my T permission to share things with her.

I had already spoken with T about this, because, from her website, I had a pretty good idea that this was coming. I told T that I totally understood why she would want to be able to tell him things about me (in case I stormed out of group, suicidal, or something) but that I didn't feel comfortable giving her free reign to pick his brain about what I share with him in session. I explained to T that I had built up a relationship and trust with him over time and I didn't know group T at all, but I would be willing to revisit the topic in a month or two. T was completely supportive. He said that group T should not have a problem with that and it was whatever I was comfortable with.

Group T was not supportive. She made it sound like I would not be able to do group T unless I relented. I felt really backed into a corner and my lifeline was that T said she "should" be fine with it. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't talked to him previously. I'd like to think I wouldn't've caved, but maybe I would've. She kept arguing her point, nodding her head, and saying "Okay?", making it really easy to say "yes", but I didn't. The more she pushed me the more I didn't want to acquiesce.
My final word on it was, "I'll talk to T about it." When she realized I wouldn't give her an answer, she said that we would just fill out the paperwork for her to talk to T and T to just listen. She wasn't happy about it.

I felt attacked. She said, "What's wrong? It's not like I'm not going to call him up and start trying to get all your information. I have too many of my own patients to worry about to have time for that."

I just kind of looked at her, shocked. Me signing a release to allow her to get T's info on me is a FAVOR. She doesn't just DESERVE that. I don't have to defend myself!

Then I signed the thing that said I would abide by the DBT group's rules. I commented on how many papers she was having me sign, and she said, "It's really important to [whatever the creator of DBT's name is] that you really commit yourself to the process. If [your T] is doing his job right, he'll have you sign something, too.

At this point I was completely on the defensive, so I just looked at her and made my eyes mean and said, "Why would you even imply that my T wasn't doing his job right?"

She actually stuttered. She said, "Well. you know... not all T's do...".

*****.

She also, when she was telling me about the group, told me about some annoying things that her other patients do, like telling her how much money they spend on marijuana and then tell her that they can't afford her fee. While I see how that could be really annoying, I don't see why on earth she would complain about one patient to another.

She then told me that "There was an african american girl in the group, and I hope that won't be a problem."

Um. What. The. ****. Lady? Do I LOOK like a racist? Do I just give off that KKK vibe? We hadn't said ONE WORD of ANYTHING that even began to HINT at ANYTHING racial. Why the **** would you say that??

I'm not even done, but I'm too angry to write more right now.

[critterlady]

She sounds like a total jerk. Are there any other options for you for group DBT therapy?

I definitely need a T to be at least as smart as I am. And not try to snow me with pseudo-science. And not lie. And not talk about other clients with me. And most assuredly not assume I'm a racist with zero provocation.

[WikidPissah]

WOW....that is just so freakin off. Thank God you have the wits to stand up to her, I would have never been able to do that.

[taylor43]

I would say she is a total control freak and very unprofessional. I hope your T refers you to another group for sure, she seems to have a thing for you and im very angry at her for how she treated you.

[pbutton]

Holycrap. How much of this are you going to share with T?

[Asiablue]

OMG! The 1st part of that story was funny, so glad you called her out on her hippy-dippy B.S. But that last part just confirms she's a bit of a moron and actually seems to have a bit of a god complex, like she is the all knowing, all encompassing font of knowledge and her patients should bow down to her with irreverance.

[FourRedheads]

Wow!

This lady sounds like a piece of work. I'm impressed by how you stood up to her!

[unaluna]

Now I feel like I insulted Cap'n Crunch.

[karebear1]

I WISH I had the guts to challenge a T like that. Of course, I suppose, if I had a T like that, it'd probably be pretty easy to challenge her!

Nevertheless- I adore the way you approach her- she'd better sharpen up!

[stopdog]

Good lord, I want to go after this freaky t. She sounds horrible. I am sorry you had to endure her, but it certainly sounds like you did a good job holding your ground. That is very good.

Be sure you do tell your T all the details. He needs to know this so he doesn't refer any more clients to this particular group (if he is the one who hooked you up with this T). I hope you can find a group with a more professional and skilled T. This one sounds nuts.

Sorry, but I gotta say this woman (can't even say, therapist) is totally unprofessional and unequipped, ill prepared and ignorant about conducting DBT. I'd insist on meeting the co leader before committing to this group. My only hope is that her co-leader is her mentor . . . .meaning the co leader has HER work cut out for her. I'd ask the woman how long ago she received the DBT training and how long she's actually done groups . . . as in how many freakin' years! Jeesh, this stuff makes me nuts.

Gotta say, InTherapy, that your description was priceless!

[Snuffleupagus]

That leader sounds like a lunatic. I do not think I could subject myself to that--at least not for very long.

[InTherapy]

Originally Posted by lucydog

I know this was probably very difficult, and it certainly doesn't sound therapuetic, but I have to tell you I love the way you wrote about it. I actually chuckled out loud about the "misnomer" thing.

Also, the brain has about 100 billion neurons (and up to one quadrillion synapses- neuron connection points). The heart has about 40,000 and they're all used for, um, beating.

Thanks! I'd like to think I'm a decent writer. I knew that neuron thing sounded weird! But, I have actual homework to do research on so I didn't waste TOO much time on it.

Originally Posted by critterlady

She sounds like a total jerk. Are there any other options for you for group DBT therapy?

I definitely need a T to be at least as smart as I am. And not try to snow me with pseudo-science. And not lie. And not talk about other clients with me. And most assuredly not assume I'm a racist with zero provocation.

She really is a jerk. There are some other places that do DBT, but she only charges like $10/group and others charge more around $50 or $60. For that price, I'd rather just schedule another appointment with my regular T!

I agree, too, that I need a T to be at least as smart as I am, or AT LEAST know more about their own field! And, assuming I was racist out of nowhere? I think that was definitely HER issues coming through.

Originally Posted by taylor43

I would say she is a total control freak and very unprofessional. I hope your T refers you to another group for sure, she seems to have a thing for you and im very angry at her for how she treated you.

Thanks Taylor. I'm angry, too. I'm going to let my T know on Monday ALL about it.

Originally Posted by pbutton

Holy crap. How much of this are you going to share with T?

As much as I can rant about in 50 minutes. And there's more coming.

Originally Posted by Asiablue

OMG! The 1st part of that story was funny, so glad you called her out on her hippy-dippy B.S. But that last part just confirms she's a bit of a moron and actually seems to have a bit of a god complex, like she is the all knowing, all encompassing font of knowledge and her patients should bow down to her with irreverance.

Yes, she did come off as very high and mighty to me. She expects everyone to respect her but shows very little respect. I hate people like that!

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

Sorry, but I gotta say this woman (can't even say, therapist) is totally unprofessional and unequipped, ill prepared and ignorant about conducting DBT. I'd insist on meeting the co leader before committing to this group. My only hope is that her co-leader is her mentor . . . .meaning the co leader has HER work cut out for her. I'd ask the woman how long ago she received the DBT training and how long she's actually done groups . . . as in how many freakin' years! Jeesh, this stuff makes me nuts.

Gotta say, InTherapy, that your description was priceless!

Thanks for the kind words about my writing And, co-leader? She's the only leader...

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

That leader sounds like a lunatic. I do not think I could subject myself to that--at least not for very long.

I think I might go back for one more, if only to tape record her.

[InTherapy]

So I went to the actual group today. I knew within 5 minutes that there was no way this was gonna work out. 3rd strike and all.

First of all, there were 6 girls there. We all looked like the same person. All middle/upper middle class 20-23 year old white girls/chubby, etc. I'm like... what's the point of getting "another view point" from someone who has practically the SAME view point?!

Whatever.

So we do our "heartmath" to warm up. More ******** about neurons in the heart and letting our thoughts go.

After that she gives us some worksheet about our logical mind and our emotional mind. That seemed all right.

Then she started talking about emotional energy and how you can feel someone's energy when they walk in the room and know they're having a bad day or something. I'm sitting here thinking, "Um, that's not energy, that's their facial and body language...". No one really said anything and I think a lot of us were looking at her like she was nuts. She says to one of the girls, "You work with animals. Don't you sometimes feel their energy or notice that they can tell human's energy, like if they're scared?"

This annoyed me, because I didn't feel like the T had any right to volunteer information about any of the other girls (Which she continued to do throughout the session, as far as bringing up something one of the girls had said to her in private session. Although it is POSSIBLE that the girl had previously given her permission, the girl looked exceedingly uncomfortable when this happened.)

So anyway, the girl who worked with animals was like, "Well yeah, I can tell if they're scared or they can tell if I am, but it's not like some ESP stuff, it's just body language."

I was thinking, "You go girl!" And T looked a bit put off.

Then T started talking about how sometimes we can get really worked up about stuff, like say if someone walked past us and didn't say hi, and how we might tell ourselves this story about "Oh they're mad at me, I must have done something wrong, etc etc" and really get bent out of shape over nothing because we ASSUME that we know things about them that we don't really know. Then she went over some things that we can NEVER know, such as: causes, other people's thoughts, other people's moods, etc. She talked about how we should never assume we know how someone feels.

So I was like hold the phone. Seven seconds ago you were just saying that you can use someone's "energy" to "feel" their mood, and now you're saying we can NEVER assume someone's mood unless they explicitly tell it to us?

I was TRYING to point out how stupid her "energy" statement was, but she totally didn't get it and we were off debating the stories we tell ourselves.

I was saying that, while it might be true that we sometimes get the stories wrong, we get it right more often than not, but we don't notice it because it doesn't cause us any pain or harm, and we can't just go around doubting ourselves all the time.

I just felt like the point she was trying to convey was "Don't trust yourself."

Then she asked us, "Have any of you ever been in that situation? Where you thought you knew how someone was feeling but were wrong?"

No one said anything, and the teacher's pet was all, "I think it would help if other people besides me talked." And one of the girls said, "I feel afraid to talk." And I said, "I'm not saying anything because it's such a dumb question. [sarcastic tone] 'Oh, no, never once in my life have I misinterpreted someone's mood. Not ever.' [end sarcasm] It's such an obvious question that everyone in the ENTIRE WORLD would answer the same, so what's the point?"

And teacher's pet got all pissy and says, "Well I know we all come from such different backgrounds and it really helps to feel that other people are having similar problems to you so that's why it helps to share."

But I was like, "Sorry, I disagree. We don't come from different backgrounds at all. I noticed that when I walked in here. We're all about the same age, we're all white women, we all live in the same city, and we're all in this DBT group. Clearly we have some of the same problems and a lot of the same experiences."

And she got offended and was like "You have no idea what my life has been like and I've overcome so much."

And I'm like, "Well, yeah, I mean obviously we have our own families and stuff, but if you took a random sample of 6 people and compared them to US, we are gonna be WAY MORE ALIKE than 6 random people."

The last thing, and this is the BIG ONE.
We're getting near the end of our group therapy session and the animal girl says, "I'm sorry. I just don't get it. I mean, I totally see how this would work in theory, but... I just don't see how this is going to work for me. I mean, I know I have to make some life changes, and I can't just keep getting arrested and whatever, but I don't think I can make this work. Like, how are you just supposed to observe your feelings or whatever when you're dealing with an asshole?"

And T tries to answer her, but does a terrible job, asking if "aren't the animals sometimes assholes? How do you deal with that?"

But the girl reiterates, and T gets irritated.

T says, "Well, we don't have time to sit here every session and talk about whether or not it works. It's evidence based. You just have to have a little faith and keep trying. But maybe this isn't the right time for you. If you're not ready, you're not ready. You can always come back and try again later."

Then animal girl started backpedaling and says she's not leaving the group because she's not allowed. T looks smug and animal girl hunches down into her seat.

I am PISSED at T at this point, for making this girl feel so badly about voicing her concerns.

So I'm like, "Hold on. Excuse me. T, you're saying that what you're hearing is, "'I don't believe it works. I'm not willing to try.' But that's not what I heard. (Turning to animal girl) Correct me if I'm wrong, but what *I* heard you say is, 'I'm overwhelmed and I don't know where to begin. It seems too difficult to start.' (animal girl lights up again and says "YES! That's what I meant, not that I wasn't willing to try!") (I turn back to T) "You keep saying how you've done this for 20 years, so maybe you're really used to it. But this is new to us. You can't just dump all this information on us and hand us 742 worksheets and expect us to get it."

After that time was pretty much up.

I'm just really irritated right now. I know I don't want to go back, but I feel bad for animal girl who is NOT ALLOWED to quit. I'm so angry with T for making that girl feel bad and telling her that we didn't have time to discuss her concerns. Um, this is therapy. How do we NOT have time to discuss concerns about whether or not it's effective?!?

The other thing that really rubbed me the wrong way was she told animal-girl that group was only a small part of it, and it was really up to her personal T to explain all this to her. Why is it HER T's job to explain what YOU'RE doing? She also said, "If I was your T, I'd do this and that." And two of the girls mentioned that they'd left their "old, ineffective" T's for this lady.

I get the impression she's a client thief, telling these people that DBT is the ONLY thing that works, and basically that they NEED her.

Ugh ugh ugh ugh!

[PiperLeigh]

I don't post very often, but I just wanted to say I was so impressed with your ability to call her out on what she was saying right then in the moment. I wouldn't have had the composure to do that (but would definitely have vented about it later). Good job.

LOL
InTherapy, reading about the group session tells me it won't be too long before you're "excused" from the group. Personally I hope you stick in there and help "animal girl" from not being pounded into the earth by DBT roboclone. Where is Marsha Linehan (creator of DBT) when you need her! I think she'd cheer you on your quest to convince DBT roboclone to quit and take up a job as a Vodoo Priestess.

[unaluna]

She should be reading the examples straight from the teacher's guide, not making them up as she goes along. Aside from that, DBT group IS hell - you expect it to be group therapy where you talk about your stuff, but it's really not. I don't think it should be taught at a round table, it's deceiving. The group leader should just be at the front of a classroom, that would be more honest, you would know better what is expected, nay, allowed. I don't know if they don't do a good job of explaining expectations at the beginning or if our mindset is just so SET. And yes, they think DBT is the only way.

[Nightlight]

Love your critical thinking skills. Wish I had them! Sometimes it takes me a while (even when something feels off), going away and thinking about it, before I realise that the evidence doesn't add up. So I think it's great that you were able to call her out on things that didn't stack up and on situations that she seemed to be misinterpreting.

I'm guessing that the only thing you could gain from this T is a whole lot of ridiculous stories to tell?! So many ridiculous and unacceptable ways that she has behaved in the few times you've met her, already. Like trying to pressure you into signing forms.

There must be better options out there and better ways to use your time! Wonder what your T will make of all of this?