I have this ongoing issue in my life that everyone seems to think I'm really tough and nothing hurts my feelings, and I don't need protecting ever. I have never been a girlie girl, and have always been envious on some level (but also contemptuous) of those really cute girlie girls everyone dotes on and protects, and who get to act silly and sweet without getting made fun of. No one, not even my husband, ever really has my back.

So, T has leaped to my defense at least once, against my husband. And it feels as if he is really on my side. However, even he does things sometimes that I find painful -- like using my children as an illustration of how what happened to me growing up was a really big deal. I have asked him repeatedly NOT to use my children. He seemed to be making something of an effort not to do so, but last week, did it AGAIN, on purpose. He deliberately used my son to illustrate his point. When I asked him again not to, he told me I was strong enough to handle it and I need to see that what happened IS a big deal.

Honest to god, I do not think I need even ONE MORE person in my life who thinks I am strong enough to handle stuff THEY think I should handle. I want SOMEBODY to care enough about what I think and how I feel not to try to FORCE me to handle something I find painful just because they think I can or should. I want this one thing to be an absolute limit with T. Just leave my kids the **** out of it. Is that too much to ask?

[mortimer]

You could pretend to cast voodoo curses on him whenever he does it?

I jest, I jest.

Sorry I don't have any advice for you. : / I hear what you say, being strong sucks, but who wants to be weak either?

Has he ever heard the things in your last paragraph in particular? Because it sounds like he needs to know.

[stopdog]

You most definitely get to set boundaries too and the therapist should respect them even if the therapist does not agree. It might be interesting for you to know :Would you have the same reaction if the therapist talked about an anonymous or fictional small child? Do you know why you have such a strong reaction to your children being used as illustration?
I am not suggesting you answer here but rather just sort of as a curious questioning of yourself.
I am sorry I used your children in a reply to you. I did not mean to cause you pain nor did I realize the extent to which it bothered you.
I understand how frustrating it can be for others, particularly the therapist, to not understand that one can be hurt. I grew up with a mother who thought I had no feelings at all and other adults who thought if they were not hitting you, it did not count. And if they were hitting you they meant for you to be hurt so shut up about that too. It is hard when it seems everyone believes a person is so strong nothing they do to them matters.
Set the boundary and stick with it - but maybe it would be useful to at least talk about the questions above with the therapist.

[sunrise]

I think you have the right to set this boundary. Maybe it will change in the future but this is what you need now. I think you should explain very explicitly to your T that you are setting a BOUNDARY about his using your children to illustrate his points. Be sure to use that word. It will help him see that he is transgressing. Also be prepared to have consequences if he messes up, even if it's just a hand held up, palm outwards, and firmly saying the word "stop" as soon as he starts. Good luck.

[Chopin99]

You certainly do have the right to set this boundary! If I tell T that I don't want to do something, she respects that. The only time she did something against my will on anything similar to what you describe, it was because she forgot.

She reminds me I'm in charge of my own therapy. Maybe your T needs that reminder too.

[unaluna]

i'm relieved other people answered. ethically should he back off pursuing something, no. but this is getting muddled - not necessarily a bad thing - and he should be able to find another way to illustrate his point. use his own kids, for example. that sounds awful! why is he being a jerk about this? I think he's being hostile - some countertransference? it's not a simple coincidence that you mention him defending you against your husband. does he suspect your husband of heinous acts, is that where this hostility is coming from and why he won't let it go?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I have never been a girlie girl, and have always been envious on some level (but also contemptuous) of those really cute girlie girls everyone dotes on and protects, and who get to act silly and sweet without getting made fun of.

Envious and contemptuous? Yes, I know that curious combination of feelings!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by hankster

use his own kids, for example. that sounds awful!

Turn about is fair play! Maybe that is what it would take to get his attention.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

So, T has leaped to my defense at least once, against my husband. And it feels as if he is really on my side. However, even he does things sometimes that I find painful -- like using my children as an illustration of how what happened to me growing up was a really big deal. I have asked him repeatedly NOT to use my children. He seemed to be making something of an effort not to do so, but last week, did it AGAIN, on purpose. He deliberately used my son to illustrate his point. When I asked him again not to, he told me I was strong enough to handle it and I need to see that what happened IS a big deal.

FANTASY DIALOG:

You: T, I can't handle it. Leave my kids alone! This is seriously triggering and I need you to take it seriously.
What if we talk about your kids being abused? Not nice, is it?
I'm prepared to talk about being triggered, but in return I expect you not to use my kids like that. Are you listening to me? Is it a deal?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Turn about is fair play! Maybe that is what it would take to get his attention.

reading comprehension and retention. my suggestion was that T use his own kids in his example. and it's kinda stream of consciousness from there, this stmt was not intended as a standalone but generated the hostility stmts.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by hankster

reading comprehension and retention. my suggestion was that T use his own kids in his example. and it's kinda stream of consciousness from there, this stmt was not intended as a standalone but generated the hostility stmts.

My retention is fine.

Comprehension lies
quite as much with the writer
as with the reader

Hai....ku!

[growlycat]

I can see how your T "using" your kids as an example is kind of hitting below the belt. But now he knows it gets your full attention. Tell your T that you are tired of "being able to handle it". You could walk out if he mentions your kids again. However, he IS just trying to help.

[Butterflies Are Free]

I agree that you have a right to set boundaries and that your T needs to respect them. This may sound a bit dramatic, but the next time he involves your children, you could tell him that you need to end the session because he is not respecting your boundaries. I am sorry you had to go through this.

I think he should respect the boundary.

That being said, I do understand why he uses your kids as the example. You are connected and protective of them. Perhaps he wants you to be this connected to the younger you and what happened. Putting it on a fictional or his child will not elicit what he is looking for. Highlighting that what happened is NOT ok for your children to endure, and that someone should have been this upset when it happened to YOU.

All that said, he still should respect the boundary

I think he should respect that boundary. I don't like it when my therapist does that either, but he doesn't do it that much.

[stopdog]

The one I see has tried to use generic children on me in the past. That did not really do anything so now when she tries that at me, she does it with my pets as examples.

Originally Posted by stopdog

You most definitely get to set boundaries too and the therapist should respect them even if the therapist does not agree. It might be interesting for you to know :Would you have the same reaction if the therapist talked about an anonymous or fictional small child? . . .
I am sorry I used your children in a reply to you. I did not mean to cause you pain nor did I realize the extent to which it bothered you.
I understand how frustrating it can be for others, particularly the therapist, to not understand that one can be hurt. I grew up with a mother who thought I had no feelings at all and other adults who thought if they were not hitting you, it did not count. And if they were hitting you they meant for you to be hurt so shut up about that too. It is hard when it seems everyone believes a person is so strong nothing they do to them matters.
Set the boundary and stick with it - but maybe it would be useful to at least talk about the questions above with the therapist.

Thanks for the support and the apology. I do not have a hugely strong reaction to an anonymous small child. It does help me clarify that what happened to me was NOT okay without a huge emotional response. It's almost like my T is TRYING for that huge emotional response.

I am sorry you grew up similarly to me. I had no feelings of my own according to my parents. After my mother beat me, I was supposed to apologize to her for "upsetting" her and "making" her do that to me, and hug her and tell her I loved her to help her feel better. Swallowing my anger and pain is second nature, but I'm sick of it.

And the pain here comes in large part because it's HIM who did this to me. If you do it, or someone else does, it's not as big of deal because you don't actually know me. He does. And he did it anyway. That is what is so upsetting and painful. I really do appreciate the apology though.

Originally Posted by sunrise

I think you have the right to set this boundary. Maybe it will change in the future but this is what you need now. I think you should explain very explicitly to your T that you are setting a BOUNDARY about his using your children to illustrate his points. Be sure to use that word. It will help him see that he is transgressing. Also be prepared to have consequences if he messes up, even if it's just a hand held up, palm outwards, and firmly saying the word "stop" as soon as he starts. Good luck.

Thank you for the advice, sunrise. I'm sure the use of the word "boundary" would get his attention. I'm a little reluctant to do that, though, just because HE doesn't throw boundaries around lightly. Some of that is how careful I am about not violating boundaries, but if I did, I wouldn't want him to be too too forceful about it. Does that makes sense? I would want him to be relatively gentle about it if I violated a boundary. I just need to figure out how to implement your great idea gently, and I'm not great about gentle.

Originally Posted by Chopin99

You certainly do have the right to set this boundary! If I tell T that I don't want to do something, she respects that. The only time she did something against my will on anything similar to what you describe, it was because she forgot.

She reminds me I'm in charge of my own therapy. Maybe your T needs that reminder too.

He generally tells me I'm in charge of my own therapy too. It made this last week a little surprising and more upsetting. I wasn't too upset at first, but then just started getting ticked and worried that he's getting sick of repeating himself (as I said in my other thread, I worry about how much he has to repeat himself).

Originally Posted by hankster

i'm relieved other people answered. ethically should he back off pursuing something, no. but this is getting muddled - not necessarily a bad thing - and he should be able to find another way to illustrate his point. use his own kids, for example. that sounds awful! why is he being a jerk about this? I think he's being hostile - some countertransference? it's not a simple coincidence that you mention him defending you against your husband. does he suspect your husband of heinous acts, is that where this hostility is coming from and why he won't let it go?

I worry he's getting sick of repeating himself, as I said above. He HAS used his own children, and I don't like that either, but it's not as painful as my own children. I don't think that he thinks my husband abuses me. I do think that he thinks my husband is annoying and doesn't treat me well. He made a comment fairly recently about having no idea how I had stayed married to H this long.

Not sure what the countertransference is here. Maybe he is just sick of me not making progress on this issue.

Originally Posted by growlycat

I can see how your T "using" your kids as an example is kind of hitting below the belt. But now he knows it gets your full attention. Tell your T that you are tired of "being able to handle it". You could walk out if he mentions your kids again. However, he IS just trying to help.

Originally Posted by stormyangels

I think he should respect the boundary.

That being said, I do understand why he uses your kids as the example. You are connected and protective of them. Perhaps he wants you to be this connected to the younger you and what happened. Putting it on a fictional or his child will not elicit what he is looking for. Highlighting that what happened is NOT ok for your children to endure, and that someone should have been this upset when it happened to YOU.

All that said, he still should respect the boundary

I do think he's trying to help. Thank you both for pointing that out. He really isn't a jerk. But, we have been doing this for two years and I still cannot seem to really GET what he's been trying to say. Maybe that's why he is pushing on this point and kind of has this "yea, it bothers you. Get over it," attitude.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

It's almost like my T is TRYING for that huge emotional response.

I am sorry you grew up similarly to me. I had no feelings of my own according to my parents. After my mother beat me, I was supposed to apologize to her for "upsetting" her and "making" her do that to me, and hug her and tell her I loved her to help her feel better.

The one I see does use my pets (if someone did that to X - how would you feel?) to get a huge emotional (or possibly just some emotional) response from me because she keeps saying I only operate from the chin up. She has actually admitted the reason is for an emotional response.

My mother would often ask why I had made her do something to me and demand I demonstrate/tell her I loved her too. The beatings will continue until moral improves was a sort of family motto.

[Perna]

I think you have set the boundary (in that you have told/discussed it at least twice with him according to your original post here) and I would enforce it more forcefully. I would stop him the minute he mentions one of your childrens' names, interrupt him and refuse to hear him, not argue or reason with him but tell him emphatically you will not listen to this and if he continues, you will get up and leave the session (and then do it if he continues). It's like when people are abusing you on a phone call; you are supposed to say, "I cannot listen to this right now, I am going to hang up" and then you do.

You are correct, he does not get a vote on what you will/will not listen to, be "strong enough" or whatever. Of course, you do have to listen to his response to your here-I-stand-don't-cross-the-line statement. He can legitimately say, "I cannot work that way, see you, bye" but I imagine he will figure out some other way to get his point across and occasionally ask you in the future (being respectful of your boundary) "Hey, I'd like to use your daughter as an example, may I or would you still rather I not?" -- checking with you if you have changed. He may still want to discuss the issue; why he wants to use your child as an example and why he feels that would be helpful to you and be unhappy if you do not allow it but he should not use your child as an example without your permission first, anymore.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by my kids are cool

no one, not even my husband, ever really has my back.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((( mkac ))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[geez]

MKAC I can see he has hit a major nerve and perhaps he 'accidentally forgot?' to try and help you to some sort of break through of you getting the point he's illustrating? Kind of like pushing you up to it in the hopes that it will get you to where you need to go? - is it about you getting angry and asserting yourself perhaps? Just a few thoughts without me know the details ..........however.......................

Major hugs on what you experienced growing up. My question is this: is T trained in trauma? I just started with a new T that specializes in trauma and a big part of therapy is not pushing me when I don't feel ready or comfortable. Power was taken away from me growing up and the last thing T wants to do is 'revictimize' me in therapy by taking my power away in the therapy room by not going my pace.

Please keep us posted!

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by stopdog

The one I see does use my pets (if someone did that to X - how would you feel?) to get a huge emotional (or possibly just some emotional) response from me because she keeps saying I only operate from the chin up. She has actually admitted the reason is for an emotional response.

My mother would often ask why I had made her do something to me and demand I demonstrate/tell her I loved her too. The beatings will continue until moral improves was a sort of family motto.

that's one he## of a worthless, idiotic motto! I'd say, no wonder you operate more from the chin up!
my dad said, if we didn't love you, we wouldn't correct you. me being a smarta$$ even then, I'd say, that's not correction, that's punishment, and if it's done in anger, uncontrolled, then it's not good at all and doesn't prove love at all - which pissed them off more. me and my mouth, sigh....

anyway, MKAC, the whole presenting an appearance of being strong/controlled, others then thinking you ARE strong and expecting you to always be strong and able to handle such and such a thing, I get. I set myself up for that expectation too. I heard it lots from my friends last summer - but you ARE strong, you are too strong to give up now, you've worked too hard and been strong for too long to let go of it now, you can still be strong, you're stronger than you think right now ..... blah and blah and blah ...... sometimes a person feels weak, sometimes they are, sometimes they need help to bear a burden that is too heavy ..... no one should be, or should expect themselves to be, or be expected by others, to always be strong and be strong alone! that's the recipe for strength to fail...
and yes, as others have said, your T is trying to help. you can recognize that good intent and respect it, but still set, insist on and protect boundaries you have a right to in your therapy/in your therapeutic relationship.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Turn about is fair play! Maybe that is what it would take to get his attention.


FANTASY DIALOG:

You: T, I can't handle it. Leave my kids alone! This is seriously triggering and I need you to take it seriously.
What if we talk about your kids being abused? Not nice, is it?
I'm prepared to talk about being triggered, but in return I expect you not to use my kids like that. Are you listening to me? Is it a deal?

offtopic but I want to say how much I enjoy yer fantasy dialogs. keep em coming.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by Perna

I think you have set the boundary (in that you have told/discussed it at least twice with him according to your original post here) and I would enforce it more forcefully. I would stop him the minute he mentions one of your childrens' names, interrupt him and refuse to hear him, not argue or reason with him but tell him emphatically you will not listen to this and if he continues, you will get up and leave the session (and then do it if he continues). It's like when people are abusing you on a phone call; you are supposed to say, "I cannot listen to this right now, I am going to hang up" and then you do.

You are correct, he does not get a vote on what you will/will not listen to, be "strong enough" or whatever. Of course, you do have to listen to his response to your here-I-stand-don't-cross-the-line statement. He can legitimately say, "I cannot work that way, see you, bye" but I imagine he will figure out some other way to get his point across and occasionally ask you in the future (being respectful of your boundary) "Hey, I'd like to use your daughter as an example, may I or would you still rather I not?" -- checking with you if you have changed. He may still want to discuss the issue; why he wants to use your child as an example and why he feels that would be helpful to you and be unhappy if you do not allow it but he should not use your child as an example without your permission first, anymore.

I could not agree more!

However, i think the therapy session is the last place that I feel like creating and enforcing boundaries ON the very person who is tasked to HELP!

How can one let down one's guard while also being required to be a guardian of oneself? That strikes me as very tricky. I'm not sure I would want that burden.