[rainbow8]

I wonder if it's because of my issues with wanting too much from my T that the following bother me.

1. I asked T if she's a vegetarian and she said she basically is one. I have nothing against vegetarians but I'm not one. It bothers me that she's different from me! Also because she's too thin. She assured me that she's healthy. I don't want to obsess about this. I think it's because I don't know her as well as I thought I did. The whole facade of therapy is caving in on me! At least that's the way it feels!

2. She used to see someone before and after me. Lately there's no one but she has left with me because she has a "meeting", she said. I think a couple of weeks ago she said that too. I KNOW it's none of my business but I hate when people keep secrets from me. I want to know if it was about work, or personal. Why did she have to say she had a "meeting"?

Both of these things are triggering for me!!! Very much so! I emailed her something about them. I think it's because it makes it very clear what the boundaries of our relationship are and what I struggle with. In RL too, some of my friends are private people and don't tell me where they are going. I hate that! I don't say I'm going to therapy, but everything else I'm open about. So maybe my T is seeing a T or maybe it's a work meeting. She never had meetings after my session in the past because she had clients after me.

I know these issues are more "grist for the mill." Does anyone else have issues like mine or am I alone with this one?

[WePow]

I understand where you are comming from. Maybe you feel a need to take care of her?

maybe she just wants to keep her personal life-personal? our counselors dont owe us any explanations as to where they are going, and its really not our right to demand such knowledge. dont mean to sound harsh but they do have their own lives to lead too away from their clients♥

[rainbow8]

I know my T has her own life, Trinity. My brain knows it, at least. My heart doesn't want to accept it.

WePow: I do worry about her being thin so maybe I do want to take care of her. I think it's more about my wanting people to be like me, though. In the case of her meeting, I know it's about my past. It feels like rejection!

So, it seems like I know why they bother me after all. So what good does it do to know? I tend to obsess about stuff like this even though I know it's not good for me.

[SeaSalt]

WePow could be on to something with the "wanting to take care of T" thing. I think I will eventually feel that way about my T.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we go to therapy for a reason, we have issues. And our T can sometimes seem above it all, if you know what I mean. Almost god-like sometimes. Maybe you are projecting your issues onto her and it makes you wonder what she is doing in her time away from you. Possibly you struggle when you two are apart and it makes you wonder if she is too.

In RL too, some of my friends are private people and don't tell me where they are going. I hate that!

That you have negative feelings about that sounds like something that might be worth exploring. It might lead to better and closer friendships for you.

[ECHOES]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I wonder if it's because of my issues with wanting too much from my T that the following bother me.

1. I asked T if she's a vegetarian and she said she basically is one. I have nothing against vegetarians but I'm not one. It bothers me that she's different from me! Also because she's too thin. She assured me that she's healthy. I don't want to obsess about this. I think it's because I don't know her as well as I thought I did. The whole facade of therapy is caving in on me! At least that's the way it feels!

2. She used to see someone before and after me. Lately there's no one but she has left with me because she has a "meeting", she said. I think a couple of weeks ago she said that too. I KNOW it's none of my business but I hate when people keep secrets from me. I want to know if it was about work, or personal. Why did she have to say she had a "meeting"?

Both of these things are triggering for me!!! Very much so! I emailed her something about them. I think it's because it makes it very clear what the boundaries of our relationship are and what I struggle with. In RL too, some of my friends are private people and don't tell me where they are going. I hate that! I don't say I'm going to therapy, but everything else I'm open about. So maybe my T is seeing a T or maybe it's a work meeting. She never had meetings after my session in the past because she had clients after me.

I know these issues are more "grist for the mill." Does anyone else have issues like mine or am I alone with this one?

... separateness, separateness, separateness.... one of the best things we can learn from therapy.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I know my T has her own life, Trinity. My brain knows it, at least. My heart doesn't want to accept it.

WePow: I do worry about her being thin so maybe I do want to take care of her. I think it's more about my wanting people to be like me, though. In the case of her meeting, I know it's about my past. It feels like rejection!

So, it seems like I know why they bother me after all. So what good does it do to know? I tend to obsess about stuff like this even though I know it's not good for me.

((((Rainbow)))) If we are lucky to form a bond with our T, then I should think it would be natural to wonder, feel concern, etc.

I mean you can only go to therapy for so long, and deal with all the me-me-me stuff. Some days you just go and things are fairly OK and other things stand out more - like the human being sitting across from you

I felt concern when my T had an emergency and had to reschedule. I felt really happy for her when she found a new practice. I felt super happy for her when she mentioned she won an award. I don't think it's unusal. I didn't want to pry, either, so I just left it at that.

If you are feeling triggered with your T, you should definitely talk about it! In person. That is what your T is there for. I know it's scary, but hopefully you feel safe enough that you can share your feelings.

I'd even venture to guess it would help uncover past hurts regarding people-pleasing, privacy, rejection, etc.

You may even be able to work through the main matter just by sharing how you are feeling.

My T had to bump me out of my 'regular' time because he had a meeting. It didn't even occur to me to ask what kind of meeting it was. I admit I am perplexed by the attitude that she doesn't get to have meetings without you feeling like she's keeping "secrets" from you. How is it your business such that her not telling you about it is keeping secrets? I just don't understand. Also why should your friends tell you where they're going? Are you paying for their gas to get there? Are they using your car? That just doesn't even sense to me that you have any right to know what they're doing or any reason to hate that they don't tell you.

The vegetarian thing doesn't make sense either. Of course your therapist's different from you -- all humans are going to be different from you in some way.

I think there's a difference between feeling worried if your T has an emergency and feeling like you get to know where or what your T or your friends are going or doing. I'm with Echoes, Separateness! Boundaries! Boundaries! Boundaries. You don't get to engulf the people around you. They are not you; you don't get to dictate what they eat. They get to have their own interests that don't include you. I would be hard pressed to remain friends with any friend of mine who thought they had the right to know where I was going at any given time.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Rose Panachée

((((Rainbow))))
You may even be able to work through the main matter just by sharing how you are feeling.

I agree. it sounds like you are getting in touch with your feelings of longing and abandonment. So do you feel this in your body someplace?

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by hankster

I agree. it sounds like you are getting in touch with your feelings of longing and abandonment. So do you feel this in your body someplace?

Thanks, hankster. Yes, I feel so ache-y, want to cry, and my heart hurts.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

My T had to bump me out of my 'regular' time because he had a meeting. It didn't even occur to me to ask what kind of meeting it was. I admit I am perplexed by the attitude that she doesn't get to have meetings without you feeling like she's keeping "secrets" from you. How is it your business such that her not telling you about it is keeping secrets? I just don't understand. Also why should your friends tell you where they're going? Are you paying for their gas to get there? Are they using your car? That just doesn't even sense to me that you have any right to know what they're doing or any reason to hate that they don't tell you.

The vegetarian thing doesn't make sense either. Of course your therapist's different from you -- all humans are going to be different from you in some way.

I think there's a difference between feeling worried if your T has an emergency and feeling like you get to know where or what your T or your friends are going or doing. I'm with Echoes, Separateness! Boundaries! Boundaries! Boundaries. You don't get to engulf the people around you. They are not you; you don't get to dictate what they eat. They get to have their own interests that don't include you. I would be hard pressed to remain friends with any friend of mine who thought they had the right to know where I was going at any given time.

Why are any of us in therapy if we can do what's right and intelligent all of the time? It's an addiction. If I have BPD because I didn't separate from my mother, and it hurts me to have my T seemingly reject me (I KNOW it's not logical!!!) then that's the way it is. I'm not saying I can't change it. I'm telling how I FEEL. I feel like I have to know. I FEEL like she's rejecting me. Of course it's not logical. If I lived my whole life and didn't separate from my Mom and can't separate from my Ts because it's a huge, awful pain, at least I wish I can make you understand that. I have a problem with separating. I don't have a problem with being abused. Other people have that. I don't cut. I don't do a lot of things that other people may do, or their families do, and that's why they are in therapy. This is MY problem. I'm sorry I'm not cured yet. I don't think I deserve your criticism but I can see you don't understand. Not your fault or mine. I'm sorry.

[WikidPissah]

(((Rainbow))) I am sorry it is so hard. I know you have this overwhelming need to be totally involved in your T's life, and that empty feeling must be so horrid.

[rainbow8]

Thanks for understanding, wiki. Yes, the feeling IS horrid. I want to run away. I want to hide. I want to scream. I want to die. I know my T is doing this because she cares about me. They all say that.

This time I want to change. I DO but it's hard. Therapy brings up everything I want. I must have the worst case of transference in the books. Well, it seems like that. I don't want to want my T. It hurts too much. I'd quit therapy but that would hurt even more because the core issue is still there and sadly, I don't know what to do about it.

[mixedup_emotions]

(((( Rainbow ))))

You are working SO hard....here on PC and in therapy....and I can sense the pain that it's all causing you. It's not something you want. But it's something that IS and you are trying to work through it.

MKAC, I also understand how triggery this is for you....and I can SO relate to the difficulty in understanding - and the anger and frustration that comes from having been in a similar relationship.

Some of the last few threads have really tapped into the feelings and experiences I had with my unhealthy friendship that ended terribly....Some common BPD themes...and I am struggling with the feelings I have about her - the anger, the frustration.

But it's registering with me that Rainbow is Rainbow...and not that unhealthy former friend. Rainbow, who is willing to work on herself - unlike my former friend who is oblivious.

((((Rainbow)))) None of us are perfect. We are doing the best we can. your feelings are really important and valid. Keep posting, OK! It's important to share how you are feeling

((((Rose))))

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

This is MY problem. I'm sorry I'm not cured yet. I don't think I deserve your criticism but I can see you don't understand. Not your fault or mine. I'm sorry.

Hi Rainbow,

I'm not sure that MKAC isn't understanding you and I'm not sure that she is criticizing you. I believe that she is offering you support in that she is encouraging you to see things another way.

I feel like perhaps you could use this thread to work on your pattern of making everything about you-- which has a corollary of not allowing anyone to see things differently than you. I think you would be stepping away from your pattern if you could look at what MKAC said and feel that perhaps she does understand, what she is saying is what you're trying to work towards. Just because MKAC does not feel the same way that you do doesn't mean she's not understanding you.

I think you are healthy enough to be able to accept what people offer you, even if it isn't what you want. I feel like maybe most of your posts are along the lines of lookee here, I am hurting, please give me sympathy and hugs. IMO, that is superficial and while it may feel good, I think you could practice feeling challenged by other people and see it as encouragement to do better. Which is what you say you want.

People with good boundaries allow others to feel differently, do differently, be differently than they are. Intelligence is at least in part the ability to see two conflicting perspectives at the same time, and see the pros and cons of each. It doesn't have to be YOUR way or not your way. Not this or that, with that rejected. You could learn from people who seem to be disagreeing with you or engaging with you from a different perspective.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

Hi Rainbow,

I'm not sure that MKAC isn't understanding you and I'm not sure that she is criticizing you. I believe that she is offering you support in that she is encouraging you to see things another way.

I feel like perhaps you could use this thread to work on your pattern of making everything about you-- which has a corollary of not allowing anyone to see things differently than you. I think you would be stepping away from your pattern if you could look at what MKAC said and feel that perhaps she does understand, what she is saying is what you're trying to work towards. Just because MKAC does not feel the same way that you do doesn't mean she's not understanding you.

I think you are healthy enough to be able to accept what people offer you, even if it isn't what you want. I feel like maybe most of your posts are along the lines of lookee here, I am hurting, please give me sympathy and hugs. IMO, that is superficial and while it may feel good, I think you could practice feeling challenged by other people and see it as encouragement to do better. Which is what you say you want.

People with good boundaries allow others to feel differently, do differently, be differently than they are. Intelligence is at least in part the ability to see two conflicting perspectives at the same time, and see the pros and cons of each. It doesn't have to be YOUR way or not your way. Not this or that, with that rejected. You could learn from people who seem to be disagreeing with you or engaging with you from a different perspective.

Hi Listen, I actually found some of the posts quite harsh. But I also haven't been here long enough to detect a "pattern" that you are describing.

If there is a pattern, I'm out of the loop, but I did detect triggering and frustratin.

If there are boundary issues for Rainbow, I do think there are other / more gentler ways to express oneself (for instance, your post was very helpful) rather than berating someone that is already down.

"tough love" doesn't really translate that well, if that is what some of the other members were trying to achieve here.

((((Rose))))

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by Rose Panachée

If there is a pattern, I'm out of the loop, but I did detect triggering and frustratin.

If there are boundary issues for Rainbow, I do think there are other / more gentler ways to express oneself (for instance, your post was very helpful) rather than berating someone that is already down.

"tough love" doesn't really translate that well, if that is what some of the other members were trying to achieve here.

((((Rose))))

I am pretty sure that the "pattern" I mentioned was what Rainbow herself has acknowledged, quite recently. She identified this as her pattern and said she wants to change.

I can see where you or anyone could see some of the posts as harsh or evidencing frustration, but online writing often leaves tone open to interpretation. I saw those posts as just being straightforward. I find it refreshing when people here take the time to explain how they see something differently. Sometimes this board reads a little too much like a groupthink, where no one is allowed to express disagreement.

I think that most of us, including myself, might be better off getting past tone and actually dealing with the content.

((((Listen)))) I need to think about your remarks for a bit. I can see, though, how members could be triggered. Heck, I am triggered at times!

Your remarks are well-written and they do make sense; however, with technology the way it is, and the very subject of this website, I do believe tone is important.

Just speaking for myself, if I wanted to be insulted or made to feel horrible, I'd speak with my (estranged) family members. Or if I wanted "tough love" I'd pay $*** and go to my Pdoc, because he is BRILLIANT at it!

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by Rose Panachée

((((Listen)))) I need to think about your remarks for a bit. I can see, though, how members could be triggered. Heck, I am triggered at times!

Your remarks are well-written and they do make sense; however, with technology the way it is, and the very subject of this website, I do believe tone is important.

Just speaking for myself, if I wanted to be insulted or made to feel horrible, I'd speak with my (estranged) family members. Or if I wanted "tough love" I'd pay $*** and go to my Pdoc, because he is BRILLIANT at it!

Rose, I agree that tone matters. I just think content does too. I don't think I see any insulting or anything that could cause horrible feelings. I hear you on the family, though. Once I was traveling and a restaurant advertised, "we treat you like family.". I said to my friend, let's not go there!

[retro_chic]

I totally know how you feel Rainbow. My T only works Monday, Tuesday and every second Saturday at the place I go to. I am beyond curious as to what she does on all those other days. It is so tempting to ask her but I know it is none of my business. There are other little things too - like I know she has two cats but I want to know what their names are. I also know she really likes the same tea shop that I like and I want to ask her what her favourites are and other trivial stuff like that. I hate that I don't know anything about her.

Originally Posted by Rose Panachée

((((Listen)))) I need to think about your remarks for a bit. I can see, though, how members could be triggered. Heck, I am triggered at times!

Your remarks are well-written and they do make sense; however, with technology the way it is, and the very subject of this website, I do believe tone is important.

Just speaking for myself, if I wanted to be insulted or made to feel horrible, I'd speak with my (estranged) family members. Or if I wanted "tough love" I'd pay $*** and go to my Pdoc, because he is BRILLIANT at it!

Directed to both Rose and rainbow, if my posts came across as insulting or designed to make someone feel horrible, then I do apologize. I have re-read my posts and I do not see any insults, or even me being particularly harsh, but I apologize if that was the impression left.

Rose, this is an ongoing, over and over thing for rainbow. She admits it. She has been through FIVE therapists and repeated this behavior with each of them, and says she has been working on these issues for THIRTY YEARS. At some point, don't we have a responsibility, if we care about her at all, to point out different ways of thinking about things?

There is an element of tough love in what I'm saying to you, rainbow. You are in therapy with a stated goal. I am so glad that you are in therapy with that goal. Therapy is hard work. I was trying to point out that part of that hard work, that we are all doing, involves discomfort.

There IS more than one way to see things, and I am trying to get you to see that part of the work that you say you want to do will involve stepping outside of yourself. We are all in pain here, to one degree or another. Your pain is not always the worst. Your transference issues are not always the worst. Your behavior causes others pain (like your husband as you describe how admittedly dismissive you are of his need to feel special also). I wish you could see that because I think it will help you move along in your progress.

Anyway, although I do not see what I'm doing as harsh, insulting or unsupportive, I'll try leave it to others to try to point this stuff out.

[Chopin99]

Rainbow, I just wanted to say I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. Therapy is hard to start; when you add in attachment and transference, it makes things even more complicated.

I don't talk about it that often, but I do still have a "mommy complex" with T. I'm truly grateful that she occasionally tells me she loves me and hugs me at the end of session, but I still want her to just hold me for a while. The desires aren't as intense as they once were, but they are still there.

I'm just trying to say I get it. It's so freaking hard. T will come into my mind and I wonder what she's doing and how she is. She told me today when it's hot and humid like it was here today, when she walked from her car to the building where she works, she was so winded, she had to take the elevator. I thought she was doing really well physically, but apparently not. So now, I worry.

[Kacey2]

..............Could this be a "behavior burst?"

Extinction
Main article: Extinction (psychology)
Extinction is the technical term to describe the procedure of withholding/discontinuing reinforcement of a previously reinforced behavior, resulting in the decrease of that behavior. The behavior is then set to be extinguished (Cooper, et al.). Extinction procedures are often preferred over punishment procedures that are frequently deemed unethical and in many states prohibited. Nonetheless, extinction procedures must be implemented with utmost care by professionals, as they are generally associated with extinction bursts. An extinction burst is the temporary increase in the frequency, intensity, and/or duration of the behavior targeted for extinction. Other characteristics of an extinction burst include a) extinction-produced aggression—the occurrence of an emotional response to an extinction procedure often manifested as aggression; and b) extinction-induced response variability—the occurrence of novel behaviors that did not typically occur prior to the extinction procedure. These novel behaviors are a core component of shaping procedures.

A while back my pdoc put me on naltrexone (an opioid blocker to reduce the neuro-chemical release from my trich. My behavior increased even though I wasn't getting the soothing endorphin release that I was used to. It is normal for a behavior or set of behaviors to sharply or more accutely present right before a huge change in behavior patterns.