[InnovateYoung21]

I'm sure this topic has been discussed previously, as I'm new to the boards I felt I'd rekindle the issue. I notice there is a lot of negativity surrounding counseling, getting help from a therapist...makes people feel weak or perceived differently by society. I personally don't see anything wrong with getting assistance to get through tough times, I think it says a lot of someone to be able to reach out for help. Without ranting too much I'd like to pose a few questions, why is there such a stigma towards counseling? How does one go about breaking the idea of counseling being for the weak? I'd really like to get others opinions on this subject !

[ECHOES]

I agree, I think it is a sign on curiosity (learning more about oneself) and open-mindedness (my way might BE the highway...) and self-caring.

I don't defend it to those who don't appreciate it or understand it first-hand.
People criticize what that don't understand and what they fear.

[pbutton]

I'm probably not a good one to answer, as I have some sort of issue where I think reaching out for ANY type of help would humiliate me.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by InnovateYoung21

I'm sure this topic has been discussed previously, as I'm new to the boards I felt I'd rekindle the issue. I notice there is a lot of negativity surrounding counseling, getting help from a therapist...makes people feel weak or perceived differently by society. I personally don't see anything wrong with getting assistance to get through tough times, I think it says a lot of someone to be able to reach out for help. Without ranting too much I'd like to pose a few questions, why is there such a stigma towards counseling? How does one go about breaking the idea of counseling being for the weak? I'd really like to get others opinions on this subject !

I actually don't think the issue of the stigma about psychotherapy comes up here directly very much, so thanks for bringing it up.

As far as how to go about breaking the stigma, I don't know, it's confusing to me. Part of my confusion is that I'm afraid that sometimes I do lean toward using therapy as more of a crutch than I should. I'm afraid my t thinks so sometimes too and he pushes me away. But it is theoretically possible to rely on it in a way that's not healthy, I guess? Or maybe not?
Some of the stigma would be that one is paying for social support, or something like that, I guess. But if the t has some kind of boundary to distinguish therapy from whatever you're supposed to be able to get in real life without therapy, then it wouldn't be a problem. Does that make sense?

Anyway, as far as breaking stigmas in general, I think having social support from friends or others who also believe the stigma is wrong is really important. PC helps with that.

[bluemountains]

In my world, there isn't a stigma. Maybe it's my age (51), but I am completely open about how I go to therapy with my close friends and my family. I must admit that I did not allow my superiors at work know about my therapy and diagnosis, but there was no need for them to know. It wasn't a stigma, just my personal business.
Bluemountains

[Chopin99]

As a mental health consumer and a mental health provider, I actually try to speak out against the stigma as often as it comes up. No one I know personally has openly put me down for being in therapy; in fact, I've received a great deal of support for doing so. I am very open about my experience with therapy and psychiatry (back when I needed those services also).

I am a big fan of Brene Brown. She has given a couple of TED talks and I think her research and her personal journey that arose from her research is groundbreaking and important to reduce the stigma that hovers over mental health. I normally don't plug people, but she is one I gladly will. Check her out. She "preaches" that vulnerability and openness about ourselves is courage. I'm starting to believe that strongly myself!

http://www.brenebrown.com/welcome

[Perna]

I guess the question reminds me of the situation at many of my work places in the past, where signs/notes are put up on doors, walls, etc. to remind people of some of the rules but the people who read such signs and pay attention to them are rarely the ones who need to read the signs? My favorite, for example, was the one in a lunch room over the sink that said, "Your mother does not work here, clean up after yourself!"

If I go to therapy, I obviously do not have a problem with perceived stigma and if I do not, because of perceived stigma, only I can wrestle my way out of that perception as perception is one's own, not something "given" from the outside. People who look for and concentrate on stigma, will find it, just as if one reads "do not think about pink elephants," one has to immediately think about them because that's where one's focus has gone.

But, I admit that life is not quite that black and white and I might fear stigma and still go to therapy which I think is sort of like fearing the dark and, guess what, it gets dark at night. I learned in therapy to tease out and realize when I was being afraid to be afraid rather than having a legitimate fear that needed addressing. Until someone (an individual) tries to stigmatize what I am saying/doing/feeling, and I confront that person (or run), it is not an issue for me. "People", "out there" cannot affect me unless I pay attention to what "they" are saying and choose to let them.

[InnovateYoung21]

Great answers all-around ! Personally I was very surprised at the positive impact simply speaking to somebody else can have, I think a lot of people are missing out on opportunities to be happy, prosper further in life simply because they are afraid to turn to someone for help; even if it is a close friend or family member.

I've never really run into issue with stigma concerning therapy personally. Therapy is a private thing for me, not that I'm embarassed or afraid to bring it up because I do at times, but just because this journey and learning path I'm on about myself and my life is just a private thing for me. I'm just not the type of person who spends much time talking about myself that way with people. When it has come up, the reaction from others has been pretty receptive and mostly very matter-of-fact.

I have only told 2 people in my world that I am in therapy. I do not feel most people I come into contact as Safe enought to tell. It's for my protection that I keep it to myself. Plus it's private, I don't tell people the ins & outs of my internal examinations, I treat my emotional welbeing as private too. The sigma doesn't bother me. That's just other people's fear.

[WikidPissah]

I am really introverted IRL. I rarely tell anyone I am in therapy. I'm not sure if there is a stigma or not, I am just private about it.

[autotelica]

I'm private about it too. Yes, there is a stigma, but I don't feel like fighting it. The truth is that not all mental illness is cut from the same cloth. People are starting to get that clinical depression and anxiety disorders are diseases, as well as bipolar D and schizophrenia. But I don't have such neat-and-tidy diagnoses. I can take all the medication in the world and still be PD'ed. Someone can say, "Apart from her depression, Jane Doe is a wonderful person!" You can't do that with a PD. So there is shame there for me.

Originally Posted by autotelica

People are starting to get that clinical depression and anxiety disorders are diseases, as well as bipolar D and schizophrenia. But I don't have such neat-and-tidy diagnoses. I can take all the medication in the world and still be PD'ed. Someone can say, "Apart from her depression, Jane Doe is a wonderful person!" You can't do that with a PD. So there is shame there for me.

You definitely have a point there. There is no need for you to feel shame, but I can see why you don't want to have to fight this battle against people's ignorance and prejudice.

With depression, at least in my country, there's a lot being written in media about CBT and how depressed people can just learn a few handy tricks to deal with their condition and poof! All better! (OK, I'm simplifying like crazy, of course, but to some extent it's true that this is the picture that's being presented.) And the primary health care people - GPs and nurses - are strongly advised by the medical system that if they feel that psychotherapy is indicated for depression, they should always choose short-term CBT. I know that CBT works for a lot of people, but I also know that it isn't a cure-all, and for many people it doesn't work as well as for instance psychodynamic therapy. Anyway, this bias from the system also leads to a perception of depression being a quickly-cured illness, and the stigma for people who dare to be depressed for months or years increases.

But in many ways it does make things easier and less stigmatised to have a diagnosis. I don't tell people because I am very jealous about my private sphere, but it would not be completely impossible to do so from a social stigma perspective.

[sconnie892]

Originally Posted by InnovateYoung21

...Without ranting too much I'd like to pose a few questions, why is there such a stigma towards counseling? How does one go about breaking the idea of counseling being for the weak? I'd really like to get others opinions on this subject !

*******TRIGGER - mention of religion *******

Unfortunately for me I've seen some of the stigma come from "authority" figures. One pastor actually said therapy was for those who couldn't trust Jesus enough. I also had a boss who asked why my insurance premium went up (I have private insurance.) You aren't sick, are you? It was a very rude question on his part.

In my own life I am very selective about who I tell about my therapy. I've found that people who've been in therapy "get it." They understand the whys and hows. People who've never been in therapy or who've never had a loved one in therapy tend to be the critical ones.

[WikidPissah]

****religion trigger****

Originally Posted by sconnie892

Unfortunately for me I've seen some of the stigma come from "authority" figures. One pastor actually said therapy was for those who couldn't trust Jesus enough.

I know that guy. arg.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by Perna

If I go to therapy, I obviously do not have a problem with perceived stigma and if I do not, because of perceived stigma, only I can wrestle my way out of that perception as perception is one's own, not something "given" from the outside. People who look for and concentrate on stigma, will find it, just as if one reads "do not think about pink elephants," one has to immediately think about them because that's where one's focus has gone.

But, I admit that life is not quite that black and white and I might fear stigma and still go to therapy which I think is sort of like fearing the dark and, guess what, it gets dark at night. I learned in therapy to tease out and realize when I was being afraid to be afraid rather than having a legitimate fear that needed addressing. Until someone (an individual) tries to stigmatize what I am saying/doing/feeling, and I confront that person (or run), it is not an issue for me. "People", "out there" cannot affect me unless I pay attention to what "they" are saying and choose to let them.

I think the meaning of the word stigma is the ways people "out there" can affect the stigmatized individual. To take an extreme example, they could fire you from your job (maybe not legally in some countries, but those laws are extremely difficult to enforce).

Even if one is not being affected immediately, one needs to manage the way one comes across in public, knowing that some people are prejudiced.

Originally Posted by autotelica

I'm private about it too. Yes, there is a stigma, but I don't feel like fighting it. The truth is that not all mental illness is cut from the same cloth. People are starting to get that clinical depression and anxiety disorders are diseases, as well as bipolar D and schizophrenia. But I don't have such neat-and-tidy diagnoses. I can take all the medication in the world and still be PD'ed. Someone can say, "Apart from her depression, Jane Doe is a wonderful person!" You can't do that with a PD. So there is shame there for me.

sorry, just wondered what PD is?

I also make decisions about how much I'm willing to fight stigma. So far, I do the same as you and I don't fight it much. I only tell a few close friends who are not associated with work. I think about telling more people at work who generally get the concept of stigma. I know the stigma hurts other people more than it hurts me, so sometimes I feel a little bad about contributing to the stigma by keeping my therapy secret. Maybe I'll end up talking about it at some point, but it seems too hard to deal with that in addition to dealing with therapy now.

[InnovateYoung21]

Great replies, I guess the reason I think of the stigma around counseling is because I know how many people would actually benefit from meeting with someone or getting help from someone but don't because they are worried about their perception or being weak. I feel that so many problems can be nullified simply by putting them on the table and getting them out instead of harboring them inside.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by learning1

I think the meaning of the word stigma is the ways people "out there" can affect the stigmatized individual. To take an extreme example, they could fire you from your job (maybe not legally in some countries, but those laws are extremely difficult to enforce).

People are hired "at will" and can be hired and fired for any reason, very legally. If you cannot do the job because of your mental illness, are a liability to the company, they can fire you; ask how many people on these boards have been laid off/fired from jobs. They weren't fired because of any stigma against their going to therapy, or having a mental illness, they were fired because their illness, say, depression, was a disruption or caused them to miss too much work. The company's job is to make money, pay all the workers, make a profit/product, etc. and they cannot do that if you cannot show up reliably, does not matter the reason. That is why the Government subsidizes the hiring of the handicapped (I have/worked with a good friend who is quadriplegic; when the economy is good, he gets hired because he does good work but he is too slow/much slower than others doing that job to be able to compete in times when the economy is not good and people have to be laid off); businesses need that extra incentive to be able to compete with other companies that do not have handicapped workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

[WikidPissah]

I think PD means personality disorder???

[learning1]

Originally Posted by Perna

People are hired "at will" and can be hired and fired for any reason, very legally. If you cannot do the job because of your mental illness, are a liability to the company, they can fire you; ask how many people on these boards have been laid off/fired from jobs. They weren't fired because of any stigma against their going to therapy, or having a mental illness, they were fired because their illness, say, depression, was a disruption or caused them to miss too much work. The company's job is to make money, pay all the workers, make a profit/product, etc. and they cannot do that if you cannot show up reliably, does not matter the reason. That is why the Government subsidizes the hiring of the handicapped (I have/worked with a good friend who is quadriplegic; when the economy is good, he gets hired because he does good work but he is too slow/much slower than others doing that job to be able to compete in times when the economy is not good and people have to be laid off); businesses need that extra incentive to be able to compete with other companies that do not have handicapped workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

We don't know whether the people who have been fired on this board were fired due to stigma or due to inability to do a job related to their mental illness or a zillion other possible reasons. However, it's true that some people are fired due to stigma.

According to ADA you can't be fired due to a disability if you're capable of doing the job, but it's extremely difficult for individuals to get ADA enforced.

Also, I agree that our capitalist economy works, as you pointed out, to leave people with disabilities with less employment opportunity. The government subsidies don't come close to making up for it. Some philosophers suggest this is an inherent problem with our economic system.

[splitimage]

I personally don't think that there's that much stigma around being in therapy. Lot's of people talk to a counsellor of some sort at some point in their lives. All my friends know I'm in therapy, as do my family members. When I was working I was also pretty open about it. I'm somewhere between walking around shouting it to the world and hiding it completely. My recovery is a pretty big deal to me, and part of my identity so I talk about it.

I do find as someone who has both a mental illness and an addiction that there's much more stigma around addiction. But maybe that's just me.

splitimage

[autotelica]

Originally Posted by learning1

sorry, just wondered what PD is?

Sorry. It means "personality disorder."

[unaluna]

Hey perna, I was able to quantify that I was outperforming coworkers at several job locations (sometimes at obscene ratios), so it's not a matter of profits, it's politics. as soon as bosses got their work done and THEIR promotion off MY back, me and my "quirks" were out the door. people suck.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by hankster

Hey perna, I was able to quantify that I was outperforming coworkers at several job locations (sometimes at obscene ratios

The job is a whole, not just assembly line production; if you cannot get along with coworkers (or bosses) and don't "fit in" that can be detrimental to the whole. If I'm a good worker but intimidated by you and quit. . . Yes, there's economics, politics, social, the whole gamut of human interaction; my point is that it's rarely about stigma of mental illness, or the person would not get hired in the first place; lying or "hiding" that one has an illness to get hired could get you fired for the lying or hiding characteristics, never mind what illness you might have.

I've worked at places where the majority of the professionals graduated from one college and went to homecoming every year together and I did not fit in because I graduated from another.

I've worked when I have not needed to work; my last job the company owner had no "leverage" over me and I would tell him how it was whether he wanted to hear it or not (this is a man who would order his office manager to buy a new fax machine because the fax line at the place where he was trying to send was busy for longer than he wanted); I made the mistake of telling him "you only need me 8-16 hours a week but you don't know which 8-16 hours" (my boss was an idiot who did his portion of the work he needed to hand on to me sporadically so one never knew when I'd get it) -- guess what, the next day the VP made me part-time :-)

It is about people skills nowadays, it's primarily a service economy, and a lot of us with mental health difficulties do not have that background or those skills. It's not a lot different from not having the right education, experience or background for a particular job. Just because we fit the "education" requirements, doesn't mean we can get that job. Just because we have been doing a job for 20 years does not mean we have the needed new experience or education.

I'll be 62 years old in a couple months and was around working at the dawn of computers, worked my way up. What is in my background is different and potentially more useful than what is in the background of a person who graduated from college two months ago in a high tech field that did not exist when I was in college. Not just experience but "background" can make a difference. However, all that goes out the window if my personality doesn't fit as well as the person who just graduated, if my energy level and willingness to work overtime, etc. is not the same and the person hiring wants those things for their company.

That's the rub, we "fake" these things, try to look younger and don't tell people about our shortcomings and get hired and then don't work out and yet can't understand why we get fired, we take it personally when we more-or-less lied to get the job in the first place. I have not understood for many years why people stay at, or try to get in the first place, jobs they loathe/don't want to work at.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by Perna

The job is a whole, not just assembly line production; if you cannot get along with coworkers (or bosses) and don't "fit in" that can be detrimental to the whole. If I'm a good worker but intimidated by you and quit. . . Yes, there's economics, politics, social, the whole gamut of human interaction; my point is that it's rarely about stigma of mental illness, or the person would not get hired in the first place; lying or "hiding" that one has an illness to get hired could get you fired for the lying or hiding characteristics, never mind what illness you might have.

I've worked at places where the majority of the professionals graduated from one college and went to homecoming every year together and I did not fit in because I graduated from another.

I've worked when I have not needed to work; my last job the company owner had no "leverage" over me and I would tell him how it was whether he wanted to hear it or not (this is a man who would order his office manager to buy a new fax machine because the fax line at the place where he was trying to send was busy for longer than he wanted); I made the mistake of telling him "you only need me 8-16 hours a week but you don't know which 8-16 hours" (my boss was an idiot who did his portion of the work he needed to hand on to me sporadically so one never knew when I'd get it) -- guess what, the next day the VP made me part-time :-)

It is about people skills nowadays, it's primarily a service economy, and a lot of us with mental health difficulties do not have that background or those skills. It's not a lot different from not having the right education, experience or background for a particular job. Just because we fit the "education" requirements, doesn't mean we can get that job. Just because we have been doing a job for 20 years does not mean we have the needed new experience or education.

I'll be 62 years old in a couple months and was around working at the dawn of computers, worked my way up. What is in my background is different and potentially more useful than what is in the background of a person who graduated from college two months ago in a high tech field that did not exist when I was in college. Not just experience but "background" can make a difference. However, all that goes out the window if my personality doesn't fit as well as the person who just graduated, if my energy level and willingness to work overtime, etc. is not the same and the person hiring wants those things for their company.

That's the rub, we "fake" these things, try to look younger and don't tell people about our shortcomings and get hired and then don't work out and yet can't understand why we get fired, we take it personally when we more-or-less lied to get the job in the first place. I have not understood for many years why people stay at, or try to get in the first place, jobs they loathe/don't want to work at.

I really don't think it's fair to talk about Hankster's situation or about people on this board who have been fired because we don't know about their particular situations, and we could easily hurt someone if we make mistaken assumptions. Let's talk about the issue in more general terms.

One is not required to tell someone if one has a disability in order to get a job. Since the employer isn't supposed to be biased (ethically or legally), one shouldn't need to tell the employer.

"a lot of us with mental health difficulties do not have that background or those [people] skills."

That is way too much of a generalization. I think a lot of people with mental health difficulties have fantastic people skills.

"That's the rub, we "fake" these things, try to look younger and don't tell people about our shortcomings and get hired and then don't work out and yet can't understand why we get fired, we take it personally when we more-or-less lied to get the job in the first place."

When people get fired because they didn't disclose their age, that's blatant prejudice against old people. Luckily, it's illegal, though tough to enforce. I'm sorry if you feel like age and/or mental health problems are shortcomings. I think old people and people with disabilities are just as good as everyone else and should be treated equally.

"I have not understood for many years why people stay at, or try to get in the first place, jobs they loathe/don't want to work at."

People need the income. I think it's too bad our economic system works so that many people are in this situation. Most of us dislike our jobs, at least at times, if not most of the time.