Cannot believe I'm doing this again

I REALLY get this. All of it.

I think it's very profound and.. The therapy is working!!

I do believe you can come to a place where the (love?) you have for him can become transpersonal. It's moving beyond the romantic feelings in time and coming to a beautiful understanding that what you have with T is more profound then other relationships.

My insane atttraction to T really helps with the work at times. Yeah, it's weird but knowing he would NEVER GO THERE... (even though there is major attraction on both sides) is pretty amazing. To have that trust, that knowing that he cares about you that much, and vice versa.... There can be a lot of growth from this... (and on both sides). It will evolve.

It intensifies things, but the relationship can be so authentic.

I think you should really just be open. Which I know you are doing. It will transform and the love will deepen, and the work will too.

Best of luck. I think you are doing great. Hugs.

Yep. I think I know this place. I think that desire (and I'm not talking your glistening gardener variety here) is there to teach you something really important. I think you need to hang onto this desire and ride it (seriously, I'm not trying to be all innuendo here) to where you need to go. It may be one of the keys to changing your life. Don't push away from the feelings of what you want. It is possible to learn to tolerate not getting it as well as it being a catalyst to you figuring out a way to get what you want, and everything in between. It is an opportunity to be cherished, and the intense feelings that come with it are just that. They are feelings, they won't kill you, and if you learn to work with them you can work with anything.

I really appreciate your perspective, Ready, considering you DID leave. I have actually progressed more with this therapist than I ever did the exT. I keep thinking that it could just be that way because I was so desperate to feel better that I just pushed myself to work harder and faster with this T. However, I have heard from others who have seen him (not just MIL) that he is really brilliant and has helped them tremendously as well. I accept the possibility that part of it may be the intensity of the relationship and will have to think more about that. Thank you again.

You're probably right. As Wikid pointed out also, I would undoubtedly have trust issues with exT anyway. Starting with a new T would feel like starting all over from scratch ( although I recognize that feeling may not be reality). Thank you for pointing out that the desire to run probably does mean I need to turn and face it. I hate that though.

My T and I often use horse analogies. LOL. Good point, tho I actually think this situation may be more of a cat thing. Most horses, once they lower their guard, have no problems with attachment. This seems more like how my formerly feral cat acts. She really wants love and attention, but then it gets too much and she gets panicky or feels trapped and bites me. You've known those kind of cats, right?

The part I bolded is the part I'm having trouble with. Joy has come with my children, and my horses, and my dogs. Joy is not associated all that much with my adult relationships ... actually that's not quite true. I have experienced joy with a couple of my friends. Letting myself feel those feelings fully and safely, even with just friends, doesn't happen though. I always check myself and try to temper the joy with realism. I hate to be taken by surprise by bad stuff. For some reason, bad things seem worse when they come on the heels of me feeling really good and I am surprised. Not sure how to describe that.

Maybe I can discuss that in therapy this week and kind of give myself a break from the discussions that I think precipitated this desire to switch therapists.

Thanks again for your insights.

Scares me? It distresses me certainly and horrifies me to a certain extent. It even makes me angry. Mostly I think I am distressed and angry that he shows me love and protectiveness of me, and seems to have a desire to have my back. But I don't get that in real life, and honestly do not believe that I ever will. I am just not the kind of person to inspire that feeling in real life. My husband says I seem so "tough" that he never thinks I need protecting. My son has commented repeatedly on me being the biggest bad a ss he has ever met. So I am angry because in my unreasonable moments I blame T making me think someone having my bad or being protective of me is a possibility when it really isn't. I am not certain about scared and will have to think about that more, CE. Thank you.

It is not that I do not trust myself. I am confident I will be faithful to my husband no matter what. It's that I do not enjoy dealing with those feelings and will avoid it whenever possible. So yeah, it's pretty clear to me now that wanting to switch therapists is a continuation of that avoidance of feelings I find uncomfortable.

I do think this is the most profound relationship I have ever had. I do have absolute faith he would never go there. I know in my saner moments that if he did, he would be just one more person in my life who treated me like my major value is sexual. He said something really lovely once about turning our relationship into something romantic would be putting his needs ahead of mine and he would never do that to me. I deserved to have a relationship where my needs come first, and what is good for me comes first. So then of course, I loved him ten times more.

So honestly, was it never so painful that you just wanted to quit? I cannot imagine this ever turning into something not at least somewhat romantic on my side because I find him so attractive.

Thank you. I do not know how to work with these feelings and basically detest them. I think that riding this out probably results in the end of my marriage, and I keep trying to avoid that. I have figured out what I want (I think), but there is no realistic possibility of getting it in this marriage, and mostly likely, no real possibility of getting it period. Not having the feelings would be much better and less painful. I do not relish the whole "grieving" what I don't get part that T talks about. I am still struggling with that.

Joy is not associated all that much with my adult relationships ... actually that's not quite true. I have experienced joy with a couple of my friends. Letting myself feel those feelings fully and safely, even with just friends, doesn't happen though.

But would you like to?

I hate to be taken by surprise by bad stuff.

How about being taken surprise by good stuff?

I think the challenge--and the prize-- is to be able to feel open to joy, securely and without restrictions, knowing we will be resilient if the opportunity disappoints.

I think it's a great topic to talk about with T.

Surprising good stuff is fine. I also am confident that I can handle it when bad things happen. But, I feel really stupid if I'm going along all happy and then something bad happens. I try not to allow myself to be too happy because that seems like it invites horrible stuff to happen.

This is something I need to talk about in therapy, huh? I am realizing that too happy, or too content or too proud of myself for anything were all invitations for my mom to cut me down and would really set her off. Thank you for helping me to think that part through.

[but now I'm second guessing bringing that issue up as well, because it may be just another diversionary tactic to stay off the yucky subject. ]

No, I think it's a good insight. And a deep one that could connect to a lot of stuff. Definitely worth talking about! It's not like anything else is going anywhere !

But it also feels a bit like that childhood magical thinking that feeds guilt that we were the cause of how other people acted, and so deserved the consequences. It's insidious--always felt like an octopus to me!

MKAC, what you said above put words to some of the hardest to explain feelings that I have had about xT. It was so hard to have xT make me feel special and important and like I mattered...even go so far as to say cherished for 50 minutes every week and not feel that way in my RL relationships...

So what I can credit my time with xT for is helping me see that that is what I really wanted and needed... even though on the exterior I was "I don't need anything from anyone... I can take care of myself"

But what I've learned from my current T (a woman) is that its okay to need stuff from other people... and that its even "safe" to do that...
this is just some of my issues so they might not relate but... I didn't "let" anyone take care of me or "cherish" me or protect me... That I've been married for almost 25 years and I have effectively trained my H to do exactly the opposite of what I truely want and need right now... So its up to me to change that... and I can't change it by trying to manipulate situations or control situation so that my needs get met... I only had to ask...

The being vulnerable enough to ask was really really hard... but I've learned I can survive being vulnerable even when it doesn't lead to getting my emotional needs met but my H has also responded to the changes in me.... and he has changed as well...

So just thinking change is possible even in your marriage...

I think that riding this out probably results in the end of my marriage, and I keep trying to avoid that. I have figured out what I want (I think), but there is no realistic possibility of getting it in this marriage, and mostly likely, no real possibility of getting it period. Not having the feelings would be much better and less painful. I do not relish the whole "grieving" what I don't get part that T talks about.

Whoa! You're assuming that this experience won't change you, and consequently, change your relationships in good ways.

It's true that there's a certain amount of a leap of faith involved, but you don't control other people. You said your husband was your best friend, and you've said the sex is great. Maybe as Ready said, you've trained people in your life to see you in a certain way because it's how you were trained to see yourself in order to survive; that may not be their inclination, and you aren't obligated to follow the same pattern forever.

Experiencing the feelings fully in a safe environment will change you, and allow you to see possibilities you don't know now and to feel in ways you defend against now. That will have an effect in your other relationships. And simply experiencing having those needs met is a benefit--even though the process triggers defenses that are painful to break.

I'm not sure there has to be much to grieve; in fact, it could be the payoff for enduring all the turmoil.

You know I can relate to your situation. I have been exactly where you are right now--just about to quit because the pain of not getting what I wanted was too much. I'm in a better place now; the intensity of the grieving has decreased significantly.

Here's why I stuck it out which may be relevant to you. I had to have someone who I knew found me "the opposite of gross," but safe, to even approach talking about my sexuality. Without that assurance, I presumed that anyone else talking about it with me would be too focused on their own nausea to pay attention, and the weight of that shame was enough for me to avoid the frankness I needed altogether. So the intensity I felt seemed to be a necessary precondition for making progress on a major source of my shame.

Ready and FKM, I actually am working really hard at changing my behavior with H. We've been doing marriage counseling for something like two years, and tried three different therapists. The therapist agrees that I have clearly stated to H what I want. The problem is not that I have trained him a certain way, it's that I married a man with what the current MC calls an almost pathological need to avoid conflict (with everyone except me apparently). So me asking him to meets my needs in this area seems almost like asking him to change who he fundamentally IS.

I find it quite interesting that your H is also an attorney.

MKAC.... I know you are working really hard at MC... in sharing my experience about how changing my behavior changed my H's reactions I should have also shared that my H was going to individual counseling at the same time so he was also seeing how his reactions affect my behavior.... and learning to own our own issues, etc..

The hardest thing for me in my marriage is that I picked a H when all my defenses were working great and so I was totally in the "I can take care of myself" and "I will never become dependent on a man" mode... so I picked a man that would let me be in charge.... who doesn't like conflict... who makes me negotiate with the auto salesman... who didn't come to my aid when the salesman grabbed my hand and held it down on the table and I dissociated and couldn't defend myself... who can't make decisions or stand up for us... and is very self centered...

Now I want something different.... I want to be cherished and protected and taken care of... (in a totally non smothering sort of way) and that is really hard because its upset the apple cart... I'm not sure if I will get that ever but I know that there have been lots of positive steps in that direction.

I'm not saying change always happens, I'm not saying that the changes will be enough, I'm not saying that there is a certain way to make it happen... just that change is possible...

YES! This is it almost EXACTLY. I would never have said he was self centered until after I started therapy and realized how much he interrupts, trivializes and just completely dismisses what I have to say or what I want. He said he didn't think he needed to consider what I want or think because I'm so tough, he "knew" that if it really mattered to me, I would stand up to him or just do what I wanted anyway. The problem was when I was overwhelming depressed, I no longer could do that, and every dismissive thing he did just fed into the depression. My H, unlike yours, refuses to do individual therapy. He went to one guy for a little while and averaged about once a month. Switched to another guy and went more often, but kept saying he didn't have anything to talk about. Our MC has mostly turned into individual therapy for H. MC says I need to be there because H turns so evasive and deceptive when he feels threatened, and any therapist would have no clue what the reality of any situation actually was.

Another part of our issue is that because he is an attorney, he's really very bright, and can come up with reasons why I am always wrong and not deserving of protection that sound very logical.

By the way, stopdog, I sometimes see him do to his clients what he does to me -- tries to get them to see why they might be at fault (even they are not especially at fault) so they should compromise their claim. Some clients are okay with that. Some get really angry. I have actually had to call him aside and remind him he is ethically obligated to be on the client's side and zealously advocate for them. He is a much better mediator than an attorney.

Side bar here....

My H did something that compromised our marriage and my xT helped me to get to a place to tell him he was going to counseling (and I was totally prepared to make it an ultimatum). He went and it has helped and his T moved him into a men's group therapy and they tend to call each other on their BS so its hard to avoid but I know he avoids hard things too... (but so do I)

Maybe your best bet is finding a man that fits what you need now...but only you know if that is right for you...

(personally in my situation... in my depression and severe unhappiness I let myself go...gained 100lbs and so no man would want me and even when I lose the weight (and i will) I will have so much skin left over ....I will never look like I once did...so for me I tend to think I should hang on to what I've got)

In some ways, I am so much like how you describe your husband. I find the description of your side of things interesting. (Sorry I am not more use to you - I really am sorry you are having a struggle over feelings for the therapist and so forth)

Way to kill my girl crush, stopdog.

I know, quite the blow there isn't it.

It was the bit about talking clients into believing their position has its drawbacks. I don't do it, but only because I only do appeals or incapacitated people. The little civil trial level work I did was extremely painful for me because I thought all the parties were nuts. You can imagine what a disaster I would be at domestic.

It's not about not pointing out the drawbacks because I do that as well. I do with a "hey I'm on your side, and I am totally willing to fight for you, but here are the legal problems with your case." H is more like, "well you did this also, and the other side is right about this, and you shouldn't have done that," kind of thing.

I haven't caught up yet, but this is what I wanted to say. Thanks, Perna! It's like they told us in skydiving school - run around your parachute (rIght after you land); don't let the wind catch it and drag you away.

I knew this is what you meant. I have those same urges too. I just got out of the kind of law where it would keep coming up for me. I was also bad at civil practice because I was always telling clients they were probably going to lose and so why pay me for the same result as they were going to get anyway.
And my partner is always saying I don't take care of her enough. And my response is - you are an adult, why would you want me to take care of that for you? I sometimes do if I know she wants it, but I am usually puzzled about why it is something she wants me to do.

This was a super big thing for me. I don't know that I worked thru it, so much as I waited it out. Without the mother around to crash things or slap me down, I found or rediscovered actually that I'm pretty good at handling stuff. Good enough, anyway. If not me, then who? Wtf? You're better than this, to be afraid of being surprised, to have to be in control.

I don't so much think of it as too happy, but too off guard. If I am too off guard, I will be surprised by something I should should have seen coming. It does happen to me in therapy. I did believe the woman when she said the dog would not be back. I also hedged the bets so when it came up again, she did at least alert me so I could avoid it. But I should not have believed her as much as I did in the first place.

I think this may be the key.