Defining Abuse...

wiki, you might want to take a look at the abuse of children wheel. it explains different types of abuse and gives examples.

i think there are different types of abuse (physical, sexual, emotional, verbal, spiritual), different levels of abuse (light, moderate, severe), and differing amounts of abuse (one time, occasional, habitual) to consider when looking at its impact on a person. also, it is not uncommon for people who have been abused to minimize it. i don't think it is always intentional. there is a point where people are just messed up and are being abusive without realizing it or intending to.

something like a car accident i'd see as a trauma but not abuse. if the driver was drunk then they were abusing alcohol so i guess it is a consequence of abuse. my guess is all abuse would be trauma but there are traumas that are not abuse like tornados, etc.

Tiny rabbit, where do you hear that? Children from loving families saying they'd call child line? How many have you heard say that? Where's the evidence the families are loving? Isn't that what people say to deny abuse in families? If the child was truly loved it wouldn't dream of considering childline. Or we getting into 'spoilt brat' terroritory.
Which of course we know a spoilt child isn't a loved child. So what evidence do you have to support that statement?

Well to me there is all different types of abuse but I would consider any act that was intentionally and meant to harm another through violence, sexual or emotional as abuse.
I think the word gets over used in therapy and thus takes away its seriousness.
My t uses the word a lot in relation to things I wouldn't call abuse but my sense of a use has been warped over the years and once we have been abused we tend to down play its seriousness.
Every time t says it I disagree with her. She says it's cos my boundaries are loose and they need tightening,!

From the odd friend who's said it and from idly browsing the UK website Mumsnet. I don't post, but I started browsing when H and I were thinking of trying for a baby (we've postponed this for a bit) and still have a look sometimes. It's along the lines of shouting: "I hate you," or "I wish I'd never been born." So really I'm talking about tantrums. I think you misunderstood my post as I'm not talking about children actually considering Childline. That's the whole point. A truly loved, un-abused child would feel secure enough to say that without meaning it.

I don't think you have to be abused or spoilt to have a tantrum. It's normal. The child is spoilt only if the tantrum is met purely with indulgence. I'm interested that you say a spoilt child isn't loved. They're not getting what they need from their parents in terms of boundaries and discipline but I think that's down to a lack of knowledge, sense or parenting ability, not a lack of love. Is being spoilt abusive, now there's a question.

But the point I was trying to make is that children in non-abusive homes are not afraid to test boundaries, to express their feelings and to make mistakes. I'm talking about ultimately happy kids saying they're going to phone Childline as they haven't got their way - and that doesn't make them spoilt, you can't seriously expect children never to act out or say bratty things. That was my dad's mentality, he couldn't understand why we would ever be rude or answer back and it enraged him. Complaining or talking back meant we were spoilt or ungrateful. It's not realistic. Children act out, it's part of their development.

If I have children and one of them one day says: "I'm phoning Childline!" I will be pleased. It will show me that they are secure enough to express their feelings, and are not afraid. Children who actually need to phone Childline about their parents do not tend to tell them about it, my point is that it's a sign of feeling safe and secure but I guess it wasn't expressed clearly.

I didn't misunderstand. I asked for evidence. You have me to rumour. I'd take mums net with a pinch of salt. In fact run!

I have friends who have said they jokingly threatened to call Childline eg because they didn't get their own way.

To be honest you did misunderstand because we're not discussing the prevalence of abuse here but how to DEFINE abuse. I'm saying that children in a non-abusive home feel free to express their feelings - those in an abusive home don't. A child's ability, or not, to say something for effect, without being afraid, is a way of distinguishing whether their parents are abusive.

For example, some teenagers tell their parents: "You're embarrassing me!" Totally normal thing for a teenager with loving parents to say. I made the mistake of saying it once, and once only. The ability to say something like that without being terrified is a good litmus test IMO.

Verbal abuse is real and extremely hurtful. Having been subjected to it a good part of my life, I recognize it immediately. There are many types of abusive behavior - none of which are acceptable at any level.

I kind of agree...thanks
You make really good points trdle.
Yes, I totally agree with this ultramar.
Good thoughts tiny rabbit.
Anne...you make a lot of sense here.
I won't use the R word either, critterlady. I do use gentler words.
I found the wheel interesting., thanks blur
I think pretty similar...thanks mona
Yes it is...but when is it abusive? That's what I am getting at.

Lots of good posts and thoughts here. I totally appreciate all of them.

I think when it comes to children, the term "abuse" should be used freely probably. Err on the side of caution.

I get more bothered when it's adults I guess. Things I hear people say IRL, like "ugh, my boss is so abusive" or "I have this abusive neighbor". I think that's when I feel it is over-used. People, especially people in therapy, tend to see almost every action as abusive. I had a boss scream at me in front of all my co-workers, because I found she was dipping into the till and the books didn't match up. Was she abusive? No. That wasn't abuse, that was stupidity. Lack of respect. And a host of other things. Not a nice person, but not an abuser. If she yelled at a child in that respect it would have been abuse, but I am an adult...so I deem it not to be.

I have a very hard time defining if a situation is verbally/emotionally/mentally abusive, too I can be abusive because I end up yelling sometimes during an argument or even defining reality like "you always do this!...." But I also am defending myself a lot from being called something or other or told that I am doing this that or the other thing when I know I am not.

But anyways, it's hard to tell what's going on after awhile. Maybe it's not abuse. Maybe both people are being abusive? Or maybe it's just dysfunctional and /or unhealthy.

I'm not sure but good question!

I am realizing that I have an egg in this basket. So to speak.

My dad pummeled my mom. A lot. He never beat her so bad that she had to be hospitalized, but he beat her none the less. She always talks about how she was "abused", and she was...BUT...
When dad would come home, she would start yelling and degrading him the second he walked thru the door. She was horrid to him. I used to sit there thinking "gosh mom, if you would just stfu everything would be calm." And it would have been, but she'd rile him up, they would argue loudly, and he'd end up beating on her.

Yes. That was abuse. But what about what she was doing to him? She was provoking him, constantly.

It sounds like she was verbally abusive. I don't think one gets a pass by being a victim. Nor would they probably agree on who provoked whom: did she engage in the verbal abuse because he was physically abusing her? Did he physically abuse her in response to her verbal abuse? I don't think it's possible to see as a linear sort of thing: enmeshed in abuse might be closer to the reality?

yes i think verbal abuse is real and can be very hurtfull.especially to someone who is still young and is forming who they are.

the mother use to make me sit in a chair in a common room for hours and make fun of me call me names and humiliate me .she also demanded that my brother do the same and also my step farther ,who i loved and trusted dearly. it started when i was 7 and i still carry those messages in every part of me now .

My mother has a knack for verbalizing your worst fears. She cuts right to the heart, she knows exactly what to say to make you feel humiliated. I guess that's where the word co-dependent comes from. For some reason I find it easy to hate her, not so easy to hate my dad.

I do believe people can be abusive to each other, but I am not keen on the idea that if one person would just not provoke another, everything would be okay. I don't believe the "If you would just not do X, then I would not have to hit you" thing.

I think two people can both be the abuser - as in the case of Wikid's parents.

Perhaps the word 'wound' is better then 'abuse'.

I am certain of my wounds. I was more uncertain of what was happening was abuse in the beginning.

Could it be that abusers seek each other out for that purpose? That is to say, Mr. Abuser would not have married a woman who didn't provoke him, and instead he married Mrs. Abuser so he could justify his abuse in return? And vice versa. Mrs. Abuser also chose to marry Mr. Abuser, to give her a reason for her propensity to verbal attacks. Because if they married someone who was not also an abuser, it would be ALL THEM, and they'd have no way to deny their own faults and blame the other. They'd have to admit THEY have a problem.

Abuse can be verbal or physical. It's not the physical scars that keep you up 10 years later, but the psychological effect of having been physically hurt most certainly does.

If a parent treated two children substantially differently, neither way in its self abusive just treating them very differently, I'm pretty sure that both children would be left with issues as adults.

Abuse isn't an action perse. If psychologic suffering takes place then it's almost certainly abuse.

Phreak

I honestly don't buy into "there's no excuse for hitting a woman". If another man did that, got in his face, degraded him in front of his children, followed him around for hours verbally assaulting him, and he finally got to the place where he decked him, it'd be self defense. Wouldn't it? I know there's some law about throwing the first punch...but...

but then again, I wasn't verbally attacking him.

I wouldn't consider treating two children differently abuse. Beating them, berating them, molesting them, mistreating them, neglecting them...that would be abuse.

I have 3 kids, I treated each one very differently, as they are all quite different personality wise. My youngest would always gripe "you never put BROTHER in time out" and I would respond "that's because your brother never threw a temper tantrum".

Dynamics between other people are not easy to discern. It is not easy to discern our own, let alone others. I still do strongly object to the notion that if one person would simply not provoke the other, then everything would be okay. Also I think it is difficult for a child to discern the dynamics between parents clearly. And I think it is somewhat usual for a child to blame one parent more than the other, to identify/sympathize more with one than the other in abusive situations. "Sure he hit me, but SHE did not do X (or but SHE did x) and that was worse" is not an uncommon situation to find people believing.

No, it would not be self-defence. It is self-defence if you do something to protect and defend yourself against a physical attack, ie to stop harm being done to you. If you are just really annoyed, that isn't self-defence.

Provocation does not equal justification. In this situation, the better thing to do would not be to hit the other person but to leave the situation, or ask that the other person did.

I also don't think in terms of absolutes. When I was in high school, the boyfriend I had at the time slapped me once, and in spite of people saying there is no justification no matter what I did, because hitting is always wrong, I will stand my ground saying I left him no choice.

Let me explain the background here. It was "hat day" at school. All day long, people had been making a game of knocking his hat off his head. They weren't doing that to everybody, but singling him out, and he was getting tired of it. Finally he took to stomping them on the feet before putting his hat back on. I pounced. Knowing it was irritating him, I deliberately knocked his hat off his head, right in the middle of a whole group of others who were doing it too. He stomped my feet along with everyone else's. I told him, "Hey! You don't do that to ME," thinking he should treat me special because I was his girlfriend, but he answered that he was going to do that to everybody who didn't leave him alone. I responded with, "Oh, you...." And threw my books at him.

That's when he paused, looked me right in the face, and very calculatedly gave me a smack in the mouth. I notice he deliberately shifted his books to his right arm, and smacked my mouth with his left hand. He was not left-handed. I think he was doing that to soften the blow and make sure he wouldn't actually hurt me. It was only hard enough to let me know he meant business, he wasn't kidding, STOP. Well, I stopped, and so did everybody else. We all realized then that he'd been pushed too far.

Yes, people say there is never a reason, but he had tried everything else, and that slap was a last resort. And, I know I had provoked him on purpose. I don't blame him, and no matter what anybody tells me about "blaming myself for being abused," I think he was justified.

I'm sorry Lovebird, but I don't agree. I don't think he was justified. No, you shouldn't have thrown your books at him, but in what way did you leave him no choice?

He could have told you how he felt. He could have walked away. The thought that he hit you in such a calculated way creeps me out, and I'm sorry but I disagree with your justifications of his actions.

I think we can agree to disagree, but keep in mind he didn't have an escape route and could not, in fact, walk away. Where could he go? We were at the door of the classroom, waiting for class to start. The door was still locked. The teacher hadn't arrived yet. He'd been telling me and everyone else how he felt all day long, and nobody was listening. Maybe he could have told an adult? I don't know, but I got bullied a lot at that school too, and I know the adults didn't pay attention or do anything to stop it.

Anyway, I think we agree he was at the end of his rope. I think in that mental state, it's hard for a fourteen-year-old boy to weigh alternatives and know how best to handle the situation. It would be hard for a middle-aged man, let alone a teenage boy.