Found Out Something Disturbing About T

They can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home, but NOT when it's with a patient. This kind of scenario is way more than crossing a line and could get a T into loads of trouble.

Well not whatever- might just be my messed up mind but I immediately jumped into hurting others scenario, which I'm sure you didn't mean to include in your whatever anyway. Just felt like making it crystal clear

Might be ethically wrong but certainly not illegal.

In some states it is actually illegal to have a sexual relationship with a client within two years of termination. In other states, it is "only" unethical until after the two years have passed.

Although having them in their house does not always mean having a sexual relationship, although I do agree that it is unethical to have them in their house (unless it is for a Therapy session) for any reason.

I WAS thinking about the illegal stuff though...stg along the lines of sewing coats from human skin?

I think this is the crux of the situation for you and what you need to discuss with T. I would keep it simple, starting discussion by saying something like, "I have heard that you are dating your own T and that information is upsetting to me." How you heard the information is not germane: if it is not true, your t will certainly refute it but if she starts the discussion with "who/how did you hear that/from?" you will know more about her judgment/T-ness skills for yourself and it might better help you decide what you want to do with the information.

I agree that the main issue is how it makes you feel unsafe and not wanting to know the personal details, but seeking reassurance that the relationship will continue to be safe for you given your issues. I would keep it in I statements about how you are feeling rather than shift it to you statements where it might end up more messy than it needs to be.

scorpio, I just read this thread now and I have to agree with most of the posters that you do need to discuss the situation, as hard as that will be, with your T. That's the only way to get at the truth, and to see how your T handles the conversation. Then you will be clearer as to how it affects you and your therapy. I'm sorry that this is happening to you. Therapy is supposed to be a safe place, and when something causes us to question that safety, it needs to be examined, and decisions need to be made as to whether you can rectify the situation, or not.

I know it's not as traumatic, but I'm thinking about my finding out that my T was getting a divorce. I had a suspicion, and I asked her. I never expected it to be true, and upon discovering that it was, I experienced a let-down feeling that my T failed me in some aspect. I know she's human, but I assumed she had a good marriage. It upset me.

I wish you courage in bringing this up with your T, finding out the truth, and dealing with it in the best possible way for YOUR mental health.

Yes in my state it is illegal to have any sexual relations with a patient, they can do jail time but usually lose their license and can't have any client contact. Even without the sexual angle, unless they have an office there I've never heard of a t having a client in their home. I'm used to dealing with MDs and psychologists so maybe they are more closely monitored?

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I think it's creepy in the context about how she pushed "getting a partner" as a solution to your recent situation. I would feel her judgement might be somewhat off....

So I talked to my today and told her what I heard. She told me that the information is partially true and partially untrue. She is in fact in a relationship with that particular woman, who did lose her license for engaging in a romantic relationship with a client. However, my T was not that client. Things didn't work out between the T and her client (shocker!) so she began dating my T instead. So, my T did nothing unethical herself. She was not involved in that situation. However, she did choose to pursue a relationship with a fellow T who was (at the very beginning) still dating her former client. I have really mixed feelings about this, and about my session today.

I told T that I was "okay" after she gave me her explanation and, in the moment, I meant it. I was relieved that T was not the client and I appreciated that my T was open and honest with me, and did not in any way make me feel bad about having to bring up something personal and uncomfortable. I was glad that this did not seem to affect my relationship with my T from her side, and I didn't want it to affect our relationship from my side either. I really needed to connect with my T today, and I did.

However, now that I've had some time to process things, it's starting to bug me a little. My T's partner is not a new or inexperienced T. She's been in practice 20 years. She's middle-aged. The client was not a T or a colleague or someone she knew before hand. The client was also not out; she was a married woman questioning her sexuality for the first time. I think the T took advantage of her-- and then dumped her like a hot potato. This is also not something that happened in that T's past. This happened 2 years ago. Who knows if she has learned from, repented, processed, or made amends for this situation. From the way my T talked about it, it seemed like she was minimizing it and justifying her partner's actions. It seems as though T's partner has gotten off pretty easy. She simply jumped ship with the former client (who, I would guess, was upset/hurt by this) and landed comfortably with my T. Her suspension is almost up, and she'll be back in practice in a matter of months.

In all honesty, it does make me question my T's judgment. What is appealing about a colleague who behaved so badly that she got her license suspended? Does my T have any empathy for the former client? Does she even know where that woman is now, and how this has affected her? Did the client herself make the report because she was so damaged by it?

The T-client relationship aside, I've also thought about all of the other clients who lost their T and had to start over with someone else because of this T's ethical violation. If the situation were reversed, and my T had an affair with another client and lost her license, that WOULD affect me because I'd no longer have my T. That would absolutely devastate me. Obviously, my T has not (and will not) have an affair with a client. But it just bugs me that she doesn't seem to think what her partner did was a big deal. Her reaction to the situation just didn't seem appropriate to me. She said she felt protective of her partner, because her partner gets such a bad rap in the community for what she did and people don't understand her partner's side of things. She also said that it was "not a big deal" because her partner would be getting her license back in a few months. I know nothing about the woman this T had an affair with, and I don't know if that woman is hurt by this (or if she seems to think it's no big deal also)... but I can't help but think of her, whoever she is. I can't help but that think that this (most likely) hurt her significantly and now this T is going to be back in practice, like it never happened. It also makes me wonder: If this T had an affair with a client 2 years ago, who is to say she won't do it again? This T just seems so unethical and "yucky" to me-- and I don't like to think that my T is in a relationship with someone like that. Of course, I realize that I don't know the whole story and I don't know this T. But do I trust my T's judgment, at least in her personal life? No, not at all. But, at the same time, I'm not concerned that my T is going to do the same thing and I'm not concerned about T's boundaries with me. I still care about and value my relationship with my T as much as I did before, but I think I've lost a little respect for her. I hate to say that because I like to think that I have unconditional positive regard for my T. If I've lost some respect for her, does that mean I no longer have unconditional positive regard for her?

I will give my T credit though for being open and honest and calm with me, and for thanking me for bringing the information to her attention. She said she was glad that I asked, and she said that I was very respectful in the way I approached the topic. She also said that her concern was for me and how this news affected me-- although, I do feel like, in all honesty, she was probably more concerned about her partner's reputation and how it affected her partner. Still, she was attentive to me and she did seem very genuine about not wanting this information to affect our relationship. She wasn't defensive; she was very warm and she demonstrated that my asking about this didn't change the way she felt about me. And, after about 15 minutes on this topic, we switched to something else about my own life, and I felt she was helpful in that context. We actually ended up having a rather fun, lively session with quite a bit of banter. We were both able to put this other issue aside and focus on my therapy. However, now that I'm back home and I'm done with my work and social obligations for the day, I find myself thinking about this situation and feeling a little upset. I'm not upset at my T, though; I'm upset at her partner. Of course, I don't know the woman and I don't know any of the details beyond what was in the newspaper and what was told to me by my date. Still... I don't know that there would be any context or any amount of backstory that would make this okay. And I'm upset that my T really minimized her partner's wrongdoing. She seemed, perhaps, a little blinded by love goggles. I could tell in the way she talked about her partner that she really cared for her. Yet, it was clear from what she told me that her partner is really viewed poorly in the community, and her partner's reputation is rubbing off on my T professionally. My T doesn't like that her reputation is being affected by her partner. But isn't this something she would have anticipated, going in? Of course people are going to question my T's ethics if she began a relationship with a fellow T who was in the process of un-coupling from her former client, who she lost her license over. Why wasn't this an ethical problem for my T? That was a question I had, but didn't feel I had a right to ask.

I suppose, now, I feel like there is more to say to my T... but I don't know that I would bring this up a second time. It may be better to just leave my T's personal life alone and only talk about myself. I think it will take me a little more time before I fully process how I feel about this.

Is it totally irrational for me to feel like I want to slap, tell off, or otherwise react against this other T? Obviously, I mean that only metaphorically. But she just gives me the "yucks" and she kind of pisses me off. I know my T loves her and I want my T to be happy-- but I don't get it. Shouldn't this woman's behavior give my T the "yucks" too?

One good thing, though, was that my T disclosed to me that she does have a therapist of her own. So, at the very least, my T is getting some therapy and has someone to process things with, if she needs to.

I still just feel kind of "weird." On the one hand, I feel very close to my T. I relate well to her, I have a strong relationship with her, I think she understands parts of me very well and I find her helpful when I talk about my issues. Yet, this information and my t's discussion of it makes me feel very distant from her. It makes me think that her ethical standards are not on par with mine. I'm a professor, so the obvious parallel would be sleeping with a student. I would Never cross that line, nor would I date someone who had crossed that line... especially recently. That would give me the "yucks" and, even if I was attracted to that colleague, I just wouldn't go there. I'd think they had bad judgment, bad boundaries, and I'd think they would be likely to re-offend. I think it's certainly possible that this T has done this before. Who's to say that 20 years into her career was the first time? Usually, in my department, those who sleep with students are re-offenders. They rarely do it just once, and they rarely get caught the first time. Maybe I'm too cynical... but I've seen it happen quite a bit.

Should I just leave this be now? Or Should I process my new feelings about this at my next session?


ETA:

I don’t want to express the fact that I think her partner acted unethically or that I have negative feelings towards her partner, because that’s only going to make her defensive. It would pit me against her partner and, even in the therapy room, her loyalty is going to lie with her partner and not with me. Maybe that’s what is difficult for me. With the situation with my friend awhile back, and now with this, I feel like I can’t fully express my feelings, because I don’t think T can fully be on my side. Her loyalty rests elsewhere. I don’t have anyone who can fully be on my side all of the time, and that’s something I want in a therapist. The whole point of not knowing that kind of information about T—and not having an RL intersection with T—is that it allows T to be “on your side.” That is what I feel like I’ve lost.

I think give yourself the time to let it all sink in and if it's still unsettling you bring it up. I totally 100% would feel the same way you do about all this. I suppose in fairness to your T seeming to stick by up for her partners actions... she probably knows more details than what she's telling you, her partner could very much be devastated by what she did, at the time she could have been going thru some sort of break down. Maybe she has learned from it and is in therapy over it. 1 very bad mistake doesn't make her a terrible person and maybe that's the stance your own therapist has?

I think it shows you have a really great and strong relationship with your T to be able to bring this up.

Often I find in here and when I myself am in T, that the focuse can shift from the clients issuses to the client focusing on their T´s issues instead. Don´t know if that makes any sence?

From having read some of your threads I get the sence that it could be something about an unhealthy dynamic between you and your sister and your father.

I am basically laughing at myself right now, for sounding like a steroetype of a screwed up T. I do apologize for that

It´s just that the way you descriebe your relationship with your father, his relationship with your sister and your part in it, is quite identical, to how you descriebe your T, people in her life ( partner, your friend) and how you view your role in it and react to it.

Just a thought, poor spelling and all

I would feel much the same as you do. I'm not sure that I could rest with it. What exactly is the partner's "side" of it? I don't care if her client stripped naked and threw herself at her: she's the T, and she crossed the line. Period. Imagine if this were a male T with a female client: would there still be room for a "side"? Your T's minimizing is the real problem for me because that's not about poor judgment in her personal life, but rather atrocious judgment regarding her professional ethics. I suspect you're not really mad at her partner (except in a general any T sort of way), but perhaps displacing anger with your T onto her partner because to be that angry with your T is problematic given your attachment to her.

At the very least, I don't see how you can get past the ethical aspect without addressing it. I think it will continue to undermine the therapy otherwise. If there had been any such parellel issue with my T, I would have been crushed.

I think I would be feeling just as confused as you are. I am not sure that I would be able to get past the T's openness about accepting such unethical behaviour - and seeming to defend it. Also, you said "However, she did choose to pursue a relationship with a fellow T who was (at the very beginning) still dating her former client. I have really mixed feelings about this, and about my session today. " This would probably be the final straw for me...

1. Your T knew about the unethical relationship of the other T followed by
2. wanting to start a relationship with that T and
3. she assisted the exT in CHEATING on the client by engaging in a relationship before the other was previously finished.

I get that it's someone else's personal life and that they are fully entitled to that... but I don't think I could personally trust someone who has shown such uncaring behaviours that are so close to her profession.

I hope that you'll be able to resolve this somehow or another. Like others have suggested, give it some time to process in your mind and then it would probably be best to bring to up again - because it isn't resolved for you and the new information has you seeming to be more confused/unsure about things.

I actually think it is not that big of a deal from an outside viewpoint of people getting together despite a partner having done something questionable. The situation your therapist is in is not the sort that would bother me personally.
But I would also think continuing to talk to your therapist about how you feel about it might be a useful thing since it is the sort of thing that is troubling to you.

Sis- i kinda agree with stopdog. I would talk to your t about her partner. Not necessarily about reoffending, but about what you said in your eta. You can talk about it without being judgmental, altho your t is already stepping into that space ahead of you, instead of letting you find that space for yourself. My t did admit to me that he was afraid i wouldnt want to work with him anymore. I didnt hear that from your t. Why is that humility missing? I would ask her point blank, defensiveness be damned. Its your therapy. But if the client was anything like my ex-gf, honestly i feel a little sorry for the partner.

I don't think we have to feel that way about them. They just have to feel that way about us.

My T said this about ancestry and generations: The ancestors give and the children take. And that's the way it is supposed to be.

And I think it is that way in therapy. The Ts give (care, unconditional positive regard, attention) and the clients take. That's what we pay for.

It takes the pressure off to not feel like T is 100% perfect. And maybe know that relationships can survive even if both people aren't 100% perfect and make 100% correct decisions.

I'm just spit balling here. Good luck. I think that all the points you raised are ones that I would think about and ponder as well.

I think I would be uneasily okay with it. I hear that your therapist was very responsive to you. That's remarkable. As someone who has been dumped/betrayed by a T, I appreciate your sensitivity to the "dumped" client of your T's partner.

I also hear that you feel your therapist was protective of her partner for reasons you don't know. I imagine there are a lot of details that your T would never reveal about her partner. That's actually a good sign. She knows how to be responsive without violating confidentialities. I would imagine she couldn't really defend her partner without giving away some information about T's partner and T's partner's client that isn't hers to share. Maybe she doesn't even have some of that information. I understand your assessment of the boundaries of what probably happened. You might be right. You also might have missed something important, or not even have the clue - particularly since a person who you like and has helped you thinks it's okay.

What would you think if you knew Carl Rogers was an alcoholic (it's in the 2d biography). And yet, he was a remarkable therapist. or if you knew Oliver Sacks was a big-time druggee (it's in one of his books, I think it's Hallucinations) And he is a remarkable neurologist.

If the licensing board is giving her back her license, I imagine they think she learned her lesson. I know licensing boards aren't perfect reflections of reality, but it's probably the best outside information you'll get.

Just a side note about one of the worries. The therapist may aspire to unconditional positive regard, though that is an ideal and can't always be in place at every single moment. However, there is nothing that says the client has to have that. It may be something you see as important in your value system, but since you used the precise therapeutic language for this, it seems that you are putting a lot on your own shoulders when it isn't clear to me that the client has to meet the standards that the therapist has to.

Here's another point that came up for me: if you T knows her partner's side of things, then that means that this T she is in a relationship with has ALSO violated the client's confidentiality by telling your T about the situation. Unless your T got her information only from the public records, she ought not know anything about her partner's side of it.

I understand your not wanting to bring this up again with T, but as others have mentioned, this might be a good time to try to address your tendency to take care of everyone else before you take care of yourself.

You say you don't want to bring up certain things with T because of the way she will react -- but how do you know how she will react? For instance, you anticipate her getting defensive about her partner, which I think you said she did do a little this time. The thing is, though, unless you give her a chance, you can't know how she'll react.

It's not quite the same thing, but I had a friend who used to have a real problem with telling the rest of her friends the truth. She usually didn't do blatant, full-on lies, but usually just little fibs or lies of omission that really added up over time. I asked her why, at some point, she had such a problem telling us the truth, and she said something like, "Because if I tell you the truth you'll be mad at me." Er, ok. This may be the case, but not saying it out loud does not change the actual truth of the situation. That's how children think... if I just don't tell, I won't get in trouble/won't make my parents upset. You're not really allowing another person into a relationship if you don't allow them to feel how they're going to feel in response to your thoughts/feelings.

Granted, my friend was pretty much only taking care of herself there. But I get the impression you're both doing a little self-preservation, by keeping the relationship calm on the surface, as well as trying to spare T a little bit. Kind of like a lot of us did with volatile parents.

I can understand why you might consider moving on to a new T after this, but it's troubling to me that you think bringing this into the therapy session will have an overall effect of messing up your T relationship. Therapists have had to withstand much more than this, and should be able to withstand much more than this.

Another point I wanted to make is that past bad behavior is not necessarily a permanent means for judging a person's character. It's true that there's no good way to portray otherT's "side" of the story -- she broke rules that are in place for a very good reason, and did so knowingly. However, I agree with FKM that you may be transferring some of your frustration with T onto this "other" that is easier to blame. And I also think that while there's probably no good way to portray otherT's conduct during the offense, it's possible that things have changed since.

I am sure you know, because I've discussed it here before, that I was unfaithful to my husband before we were married. I understand that in your book I may have a scarlet A for life, and you have the right to feel that way; however, that is not how my husband sees it. If my H were a marriage counselor, and someone found this out about us, and addressed him with it, I would fully expect him NOT to get defensive, although I'd also expect him not to throw me under the bus. I would expect him to agree that my past actions were bad ones, and were not excusable no matter what the circumstances, but I would also expect him to say that he's with me because I used that low point in my life to catalyze a great deal of positive change -- change that has made it very UNlikely that I will "re-offend". That you would never do something does not rule out the ability to approach those who have without judgment.

So I really do think that the way T handles this will tell you a lot about what is actually bothering you here. Not so much otherT, as the way that T sees otherT's actions. My H's forgiveness of me doesn't make him a cheater by proxy, and your T's forgiveness of otherT doesn't necessarily mean she endorses or condones her previous actions. But you won't know unless you talk about it.

(I don't mean to minimize what otherT did. I'm certainly not one to point fingers, but for me, I'd never sleep with a student, either. Still, I don't think it's something that's impossible for her to learn, grown, and change from. Or to feel a lot of remorse about.)

You question whether you have "unconditional positive regard" for your t. Clearly you don't as you think less of her because she has broken one of your conditions. Actually she is friends with someone who broke one of your conditions. She just never broke any of your conditions before - that you knew of.

I personally don't believe in unconditional love so I am not judging that.

I have a lot of thoughts about your situation. And some of them are conflicted. I guess as a Libra I try to see all sides of an issue. I definitely feel that I would react like you are if I felt my T was less than ethical. It would be hurtful and I might lose a lot of trust for her.

On the other hand, I can recognize that you do not know the whole story. You are piecing together evidence to support your version of the story. And your version may be the 'real' story or it may not. And, if your T is ethical she will not make you privy to the details of her relationship or how another person's relationship panned out. You will never know and you SHOULD never know.

I guess it comes down to how important it is for our T to clearly fulfill our standards. But, how do we know for sure how much our T has failed? Or not failed? We can never know the whole story, so how do we choose to act with limited information?

So, I'll tell you my own story. I've always thought of myself as a honest moral person. I used to look at other people's actions and I would think and I would say, "How can anyone do such a thing?" or " I would NEVER do something like that!". I had strict ethical standards and I could easily judge another person if they did not measure up.

Funny thing is - I never saw myself as judgmental. I saw myself as kind and supportive and generous of spirit. But, secretly (even to myself), I DID judge others.

Well, guess what - I fell off the pedestal that I had unconsciously put myself on. And it was devastating. I hated myself and I could see other people also harshly judge me.

And that's when I learned a valuable lesson - NEVER will I sit in judgment (if I can help it) without knowing the whole story and without having walked in that person's shoes. I cannot understand what another person has gone through and I have no right to condemn.

In my situation, not one person asked my side of the story. They just saw the 'FACTS' and that was the end of any interest on their part of understanding or compassion.

And, with your T, maybe the scenario you envision is 100% true - the facts are clear- but you don't know the internal and personal and emotional aspects. You don't know how much regret or shame might be involved. AND, you will never know.

So, I guess you have a choice - you can accept that your T is a human being who is fallible and prone to mistakes and misjudgments like anyone else. And with that acknowledgment you can also accept the guidance and help she offers you that you find valuable.

Or, you can focus on a situation you find intolerable and let that destroy the relationship you do have with your T and experience a profound loss.

I DO sympathize with you and I know it's not easy. I can imagine how my T would handle this. She would be very interested in my emotions and would try to help me discover why I'm feeling so triggered by my newfound information. But, she would not indulge me with any more information about her personal life... and for that I would respect her mightily.

Good luck and lots of hugs.