Horribly jealous of T's daughter

I am sorry, growly, I have been a victim myself in my horrific childhood, i dont mean to be judgmental or to hurt your feelings, and i apologize. i understand all of this, as I had no positive role of mother of father figure, as I grew up being the parental figure, I have many issues of abandonment and as you know of csa and physical trauma, I am not trying to make this about me, just giving an example, of how its possible to overcome situations, I was very insecure, like you, I was afraid of my own shadow, with nobody to turn too, I was awkward in school, I had everything as a child my parents were very financially stable, but at the same time I had nothing but horrors.
I was sick alot, due to nerves, my parents did not believe in therapy, I was not allowed many friends, if I had too many friends that were boys, I was called a s l u t, if I had too many girl friend i was called a lesbian.
I was a mess, I attempted sui , I had no support , no therapists, no guidance, no meds, I decided to leave home at 19 yrs. went to another state, lived with an uncle for a year, which was not pleasent, got a job at mcdonalds, saved money, but if I was not home by 9pm, he would lock me out, so many times i would have to spend nights in the park.
I left, found a friend to stay with, not pleasent either, made it there, times where I was hungry scared alone, did this until i was 22, found a studion apt. ate ramen noodles. No tv just a bed , books , Just want to tell you that, I found inner strenght, You have inner strenghth as well, you need to dig down and find it. Remember you are a wonderful human being.

Growli, I think you have said something very important in this: I'm playing the victim...
Yes, that's exactly it - you're playing the victim, it's a big part of who you are, who you have learned to be and what defines you. And you're not even shy to admit that.
Yes, people are allowed to wallow in their own pity every now and again - but it should not be taken as permission to just accept the victim status.
I don't believe in the victim status, I believe in the survivor status!
Because, look around - you have survived! Right now, you are not a victim any more. You are a survivor. And survivor comes with all these cool things like empowerment, self-discovery, CHANCES and POSSIBILITIES.

- The next part may trigger -
I was a victim once - and gosh, what a victim I was was. My abuse started when I was five years old and I was burnt with boiling hot water. I was beaten, neglected, burnt, drowned, raped, sold, starved, stuck in a dark and cold basement for weeks - I had no one except my younger siblings who I started to take care of when I was 6 years old. Until I moved away from home I had daily abuse, violence and shame and loneliness. And even as an adult I was never safe from the obsession of my abusers. I was in hospital more than I can count. I had hundreds of broken bones, fractures, ruptured organs.

I had no mother or father who loved me and no one who would stick up for me other than myself.

BUT:
I am still alive, I am a survivor and I draw strength from knowing I am not beaten, I am not defeated, I have not died from what others have done to me. I can love, I can let others love me, I can care about others, let others be, I can make a decision to be happy, I can choose my career, I CAN CHOOSE who I want to be. We all can. Because life has this amazing power! If we choose to look around, outside of our own little (and often miserable) life, there are things to be discovered, there are goals we can set, there are love we can find.

NO,
we do not have to be victims, we do not have to play the victim, we are not powerless. We are not forgotten by the world, we are not doomed to eternal misery.

That's why we go to therapy... we need help with seeing the light, we need to feel that someone cares, we need to feel loved and valued. For many people it's the only place where they feel validated and cared for. But for many it's also a big danger to stay trapped in their misery because the good feelings are there and we don't want them to go away.

But again, playing the victim is not helpful in my eyes and not a privilege. I set very strict rules for myself when it comes to self-pity. I allow it - but only for a set time frame a day. I let myself get completely lost in all the bad and sad feelings and needs and disappointments and whatnot. I give myself an hour at most. And then I wash up and make a conscious decision to count my blessings.

Look at all the support you get here, growli. All these strangers who take the time to follow your story, give you encouragement and love, share their own wisdom or experiences. You can take this love here, the nice and warm words and let them give you strength. Let them be part of your wings. The more you feel you are entitled to being the victim, the longer you will stay in there and the harder you might crash one day.
LC(not mom) is a blessing for you too. As long as you don't stay in a fantasy world and appreciate what she can give you, how much she can help you and love you - you have a strong ally in her it seems.
But the goal should be healing, not more and more dependence.

Sorry to be blunt and I hope I haven't hurt your feelings (too much). But I wish for you that you would be able to see what a lot of people can see already:
YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM ANY MORE.
YOU ARE LOVED.
YOU ARE SMART.
YOU ARE LOVEABLE.

With love,
Amelia

Amelia, while this might work for you, I don't think it's fair to generalize that self-pity is bad (self-pity is actually a loaded term that I don't particularly like) or that recognizing one's status as a victim is necessarily self-pity. It all depends where you are in your therapy journey. My biggest job in therapy recently has been to accept that I was a victim and get in touch with those feelings of being scared or hurt or...well, victimized.

I'm really not good at sitting with those feelings; instead I usually try to rationalize them or say that this was a really long time ago so it doesn't matter and no good will come of reliving it...but I have to relive it, and I have to sit with those feelings and that pain to be able to move past it and heal. No good will come of just trying to move on and forget about it or pretend it doesn't affect me, because it does.

So my job in therapy right now is to feel all those uncomfortable feelings that you might call self-pity and realize how much I was hurt and how unfair it was. That's where I am. You might be past that stage, but not everyone is. So I really don't think it's fair for you to chastise Growli for "playing the victim" when that might be what she needs right now; we don't know, because we're not her.

Yearning, I think you misread my post.. I did not say that recognizing one's status as a victim is self-pity.
And it was my therapist who taught me that victimization is not something that is good to stay in, that is good to "sit with" - only in my opinion and I don't speak for everyone and every situation - self-pity is fine as long as it's not the center of your world. I firmly believe that we DO have a choice in our feelings and I am also one of those few people who believe that it isn't always necessary to explore all the deep uncomfortable feelings and learn to "feel" them and be "comfortable" with them.
On the contrary, I believe in strength of body and mind, the power love can hold and so on.

I did NOT chastise growli AT ALL and I really don't appreciate that you are saying that. She herself said she is "playing the victim" I picked up on that and what I said was not to chastise but to empower.

No, I absolutely did not say anything to the effect that people should just move and and ignore their feelings.. I mean, did you read about my past? I have felt and still feel my fair share of feelings and I am not ignoring the pain. But I also make a choice to find the exact opposite.

No, it's absolutely not a universal truth that we have to learn how to be victims or to accept that we are victims. I will never accept my victim status, ever! And I believe that this is one of the reason my life does not feel hopeless or miserable all the time.
It's also not a universal truth either that self-pity is good or helpful.
What works for some might not work for others, I agree. But I am not qualified to know exactly what every person need, so I can speak from my own experience and what helped me, what I have learnt, what my Therapist tells me etc.
For some it might help, for other it might not. In that case, whoever feels this is helpful takes something away from this and whoever doesn't - doesn't.

But I believe that there is a difference between victim and survivor. And you know, you say you have to "sit" with those feelings. And that it is okay to realize you're a victim and work on that etc..
But just food for thought - what if you would - instead of realizing you were a victim, realize you were a survivor? You would still have all the feelings that resulted from you being a victim. You would still feel all the pain. But you would also have that positive affirmation that you are still here, that you are still breathing, that you are strong, that you haven't lost.

What is the difference between a victim and a survivor to you then? I find that those words get bandied around a lot and don't necessarily have any concrete meaning. I accept that I have a lot of strength in me; it's how I've gotten through hard times. That's not my issue. My issue is accepting that those times were very hard and very real and that others did those things to me and I wasn't the one who invited those things. It's about accepting that I didn't have control over those situations and that what happened to me continues to affect me in ways I can't control but can work through.

To me, the difference is this: VICTIM is what someone else makes you in the moment someone does something bad to you. A SURVIVOR is what you are after being victimized. You are still breathing, you are still alive, you are strong. And the word survivor bears much more possibility while victim bears a lot of chains and suffering.

When I look back at my past I feel proud of myself that I have survived and more proud that my surviving even transformed into living.

Yearning, you say it yourself: You might not be able to control some of the effects your past has on you, but you can work on them. So see, you made a choice that your life should be better.

I have to sidetrack a little here though because something you wrote struck a chord in me... "My issue is accepting that those times were very hard and very real and that others did those things to me and I wasn't the one who invited those things. It's about accepting that I didn't have control over those situations"

My very first therapist about 10 years ago (I was in my early twenties) told me almost exactly the same thing. That this was my issue. For some reason I (and I am only speaking for myself and not for you or anyone else!!!) could not accept that this was my issue. Because what happened to me WAS real. I was a child, so of course I didn't INVITE things. Others did these things to me and that is a fact. So why would my issue be accepting that..My T thought back then, that I have to work through my pain and trauma by reliving it, accepting it, feeling it. But all that did was to victimize me once again and I became very angry. And then that T thought that was good and he analyzed that etc.. I left after a while because it made my life miserable! Even more than it already was. So really, what helped ME (again, not universal) was to focus on what empowerment it would be if I changed from being the victim to the survivor. And my current T gave me the most helpful advice - instead of focusing on accepting the past, which I will never ever do because what happened to me was unacceptable, I should focus on accepting that I am not a victim any more and that I stopped being a victim the moment I made my first conscious choice to break out.

For me it helps. (Again, for me!) With what happened to me I should probably be broken beyond repair - but as soon as I was able to I made the choice to not let it happen. And the choice didn't make my pain any less, doesn't stop the flashbacks and nightmares. But it makes me see the world in a positive light.

That's fair, and I'm glad that works for you, Amelia. Some things work for some and not for others because we're all different people. For me personally, I have spent so many years just trying to move on from what happened to me and just say to myself, "It's the past; I'm here; I'm fine; it doesn't matter anymore." But what I realized a few weeks ago was that it does matter and it is important to go back to those experiences and work through them, and to work through them I have to accept them and relive those really difficult feelings of being completely out of control and having things done to me that hurt me and made me a victim. This might not be what you need, but it's definitely what I need.

I thought I'd dealt with all my mother issues (not "dealt with" them but put them aside to the point that they were no longer affecting my relationship with her) up until a few weeks ago when she said something about my T putting ideas in my head and I just went off on her and told her that it wasn't my T who told me she'd kicked me out when I was thirteen; she'd done that. She was the one who did x and y and z and I was crying and screaming and then she started crying and my stepfather started yelling and swearing at me and it was just a mess.

I'd kept all these feelings buried so deep for nearly six years that I almost thought they weren't there anymore, which is why they surprised me when they burst out like that in a really inappropriate way, and I realized that T was right and I actually do have a lot of pain to work through, and step one (for me) is accepting that stuff really happened and it was really painful, because sometimes I doubt that a) things really did happen or b) that they were so bad, and then I try to rationalize them or just put them aside. And that hasn't worked at all for me. I've spent the past few years focussing on the fact that I'm still breathing and alive and strong, but that mindset hasn't actually allowed me to work through anything; it's just allowed me to ignore my pain and rationalize it away so I can be functional.

I agree with amelia, everyone, does, have a choice, theres nothing wrong to sit with your feelings, and to know and still feel that one was a victim once imo, but one has " survived" it because you are working through it in therapy now. To remain, and to think and find no way out of victim status is not healthy IMO, its self defeating.

I dont see where amelia was chastizing, growly, I gave growly similar advice. Growly has lots of support, I understand taking that first step is scary for her. I also dont think cutting ties with her coach is advisable, but all growly sees imo is LC as a support network, the professional people that can provide healthier attatchment boundaries are being pushed away. The LC should coordinate with her school t, IMO.

Word games help some people. I don't think they help everyone. To me it is a sort of propaganda way of thinking. (When you ride alone, you ride with Hitler - rather than carpool).

I think the common misunderstanding is that all this is black and white. Feeling strong, being alive, feeling empowered does not mean that you have to forget or deny the past or that you once WERE a victim.
It can work at the same time, and that's how it is for me. I am not living in oblivious happiness with a smile on my face every second - I am living WITH a past in an empowered not powerless way. I work through my past WHILE knowing I can conquer anything I want. Putting one thing aside and forgetting about the others doesn't work usually.
I was triggered a year ago by an email I received from my father. I was out of control with pain and flashbacks and sadness and crippling fear. BUT I decided that I need help with that, so I found a therapist. I am working through emotions that are very difficult, yet every morning when I wake up, I thank God that he has kept my bruised soul from breaking yet another day and I invite all the good that comes my way. That's why I am a survivor and the victim me is long, long gone.
And it's funny, now that I know I won't heal from this leukemia this survivor mentality even helps me tremendously in fighting for great, wonderful days - whereas the victim me would be incredibly depressed and angry that after all I have been through I have fallen victim to yet another thing..

I hope you'll be able to work through your issues AND I hope you'll remember the strong you that is breathing and living and working on getting better.

Love, Amelia

There are two schools of thought going on here.

The more "CBT" oriented thought is that you can choose everything you think and feel, you don't have to go back to the past, etc... That works for some people, especially those who were previously stuck in a "victim" mentality.

But then there's those who are on the other side, the more "psychoanalytic" side, who say that you have to explore the past and deal with it. This works better for those in denial who have tried to "move on" without admitting the past pain they have gone through.

This is obviously a simplification, but y'all are arguing about what psychologists have argued about for years.

As I read this, I took a deep breath. I am still breathing and if that is your only criteria for being strong, then I'm both a survivor and a victim.

I also didn't say I was playing the victim. I said I am a victim and I'm just doing what I know how. I am making a choice to get help and work on things. I just don't think that my relationship with LCM is all that toxic or that it's fair to say I'm "playing the victim" when progress doesn't happen immediately.

I'm currently working on this piece of music that is really hard and I sound horrible while playing it. It is taking me an unusually long amount of time to work through it and it is very not fun. Sometimes, I'd rather run away than work on it. But I still do. Just because I don't see myself making much progress, does that mean I'm not trying and I'm throwing my hands up and saying I can't do it? No. It means that the music is really hard, maybe I'm unknowingly approaching it from the wrong angle, and I'm uncovering different facets of my technique that need work. And I also am making progress. It's just very small. It doesn't mean that I'm not working on it or that I'm allowing myself to just stare at the music and think it is too hard. I'm breaking it down into manageable pieces.

My work in therapy is the same way. I don't think that me calling LCM "mom" is a horrible thing. I don't think that my emotions concerning it or my point of view is the problem. I'm waiting on a new TT. I go to therapy, I cooperate, I do all this stuff despite not feeling like I can improve and despite how painful it is.

Because of this, I'm not "playing the victim". I am a victim and I am a survivor. The course of people's progress and the amount of time it takes to improve doesn't run identically. Hell, if I were "playing the victim", I'd still be making sui attempts and self harming. I stopped ODing on pills. I worked a little bit throughout the winter. I'm still trying to get an "actual" job. It's all progress and I don't think I should be shamed by accusing me of "playing the victim" because my progress isn't as quick as anyone would like and because I disagree with some interpretations of how treatment is going.

I just wanted to say, that I loved your music metaphor. Makes a great deal of sense and I think it's great you can conceptualize your therapeutic work this way.

I never meant to cause you shame, or make you feel like a victim, I do apologize, as I recall, you recently, stopped oding on pills, and you have had emotional breakdowns that have led to negative thoughts, its not direct , self harm, but there is emotional self harm that leads you into disress mode, which lead you into ed problems, then have you thinkinkin, if lc is not in your life, its no worth living. As far as being a victim and a survivor at the same time, just my oppinion,
if it works for you fine, to me I see that, as having the door open to my PAST AN MISTAKES open and just going in there whenever I want to , without a safe person a professional to work things through with, but remember you are not entering as a VICTIM.

Also imo I couldnt be both VICTIM AND SURVIVOR at the same time, it would be mentally overwhelming, you cant be dead, an alive at the same time. No offence or disrespect intended, this is just me.

It's semantics. Victim and survivor mean the same thing to me except that survivor is in a more positive light. I guess you could be a dead victim, but not all victims are dead. Victims survive things and survivors are victimized. I don't think of myself in either of those terms. I prefer to see myself just as a person.

I feel exactly the same way. It's a form of transference, and the only thing you can do is treasure the sessions you have with your therapist - and try and view her as support and trust, maybe not a mother figure. I know how hard it is, and god knows I would have cried there and then if I'd heard my T's kid say that.

I'm very fortunate to have something like music in my life where everything just makes sense and I find it in everything and everything in it.

Growli, I just want to say in,all fairness, that it wasn't my opinion that you are playing the victim - You actually said it yourself. In exactly those words. And I picked up on it.

And sweepy, I agree 100%!

Thanks amelia, im trying my best here, and so are you.

I said I was playing the victim and then reframed it, broke down what I actually meant, and then said it wasn't fair for people to guilt me by accusing me of playing the victim.

I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to be a survivor. I don't want the past to define the way I look at myself. I want to be growlithing, a musician and a person. I'm not at all there yet, but that's the way I see it. There are problems with both sides of the word.

I remember when I read your first posts to the forum, and I've seen huge progress in both your thought patterns and behaviors. Does that mean you can't experience surges of difficult emotions and express doubts about your future? Do these occasions invalidate the progress you've made? Of course not! It's just sad that you can't seem to be allowed the space here to give voice to those moments.

People just tend to want to lecture me/teach me stuff. It's the same way in real life. I'm not really sure why. I probably come off as completely helpless or something. Green and helpless. I'm not as helpless as people think I think I am. That was a difficult sentence.

My experience suggests that this is a common problem that is not your fault or unique to you. In my experience, many people are not effective listeners. Many people tend to want to intervene right away and tell someone how to think, feel, or act in order to solve her/his problem.

I feel the same (well, except for the musician part). Never got the "pride" about being a survivor. No, I'm me, not my past- in all fairness I'm still working on it- hope is possible for us...