As winnicott says " the good enough mother" does this apply to your therapist?
As I have suffered with maternal transference with every therapist and I notice a lit of people here have the same infliction( I call it this because it is do very painful).
I wonder if after so many disappointments from our primary caregivers can our therapist ever be good enough?
I know I have been disappointed by my therapists because I have an expectation that they won't let me down but in the end they did. Now as I see my fourth therapist I wonder are my expectations too high, will any therapist ever be good enough?

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We have to realize that people are flawed as human beings and be willing to forgive imperfections and mistakes. Otherwise we're dooming ourselves for a lifetime of mistrust and and disappointment. Everything can't be a deal-breaker or there will never be any lasting deals. It is difficult to learn to forgive and repair and move on rather than react and break off and run away, but at some point we have to be willing to step up and say that the whole of a relationship is most often worth saving, and capable of being saved, if we can make ourselves slow down and step back and see the whole picture rather than focusing only on the imperfections.

If I refused to forgive and see past and move on, I'd be a pretty lonely person. There have been VERY few irrepairable relationships in my life. Most people are worth giving that second look.

[elliemay]

The phrase "good enough" I think applies to most relationships, therapeutic or otherwise.

Every relationship has its hurts, disappointments, upsets. Nothing is perfect. We live, we love, we get hurt. It's just the way it goes.

Looking for that one person that would never hurt us, well, it's just not going to happen. Looking for those people where the good is more than the bad, that's more realistic.

The absence, however, of a good enough mother, does leave us with a lot of work to do. We have to figure out ways to absorb the hurt of life without it being catastrophic. We have to figure out ways to communicate, to love, to let things slide without resentment. We have to figure out ways to choose for ourselves what we will tolerate, what we like, and what we won't.

The relationship with the therapist is a good place to start. It's more "us centered" than most. I think by slogging out and working through problems there, we can begin to build the strength and the tools to tolerate a more reciprocal relationship.

It's painful and hard work, but worth it.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

We have to realize that people are flawed as human beings and be willing to forgive imperfections and mistakes. Otherwise we're dooming ourselves for a lifetime of mistrust and and disappointment. Everything can't be a deal-breaker or there will never be any lasting deals. It is difficult to learn to forgive and repair and move on rather than react and break off and run away, but at some point we have to be willing to step up and say that the whole of a relationship is most often worth saving, and capable of being saved, if we can make ourselves slow down and step back and see the whole picture rather than focusing only on the imperfections.

If I refused to forgive and see past and move on, I'd be a pretty lonely person. There have been VERY few irrepairable relationships in my life. Most people are worth giving that second look.

Even if they have lied and betrayed you? I understand that most relationships can be salvaged but at what expense to yourself!

There always has to be mutual agreement that things can be put right again but if you feel that the other has caused too much intentional hurt whilst trying to empower you, see it's a double sword when the hurt comes from a therapist. The person whom is teaching us to respect ourself but then they sometimes do not respect us.

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Yes, even if they have lied and betrayed you, although I sometimes think some may use that word "betrayed" a bit too loosely. I've suffered very few REAL betrayals in my life, and I reserve those to people who truly and intentionally abused me, physically, mentally, or emotionally. Have there been others who have hurt me emotionally perhaps but they weren't really intentionally motivated in that direction? Absolutely.

I think we are quick to jump to the conclusion that if we are hurt, the person set out to "do" that to us from the very beginning. Actually, I think most of the time, people just screw up and don't realize until after the fact that their actions were harmful. I don't really consider that a deliberate betrayal. It's a f-up. Have I been guilty of that kind of thing myself? Of course. We all have.

Can you say that the incidents you call "betrayals" were really intentionally motivated from the onset to hurt you? That these people woke up one day and said, "I'm going to do this because I want to cause Mona harm"? My guess is that most weren't; most were just really tragic f-ups. Some of the things I've seen you define as "intentional" honestly didn't seem intentionally motivated to cause you harm; they definitely ended up that way. These people did screw up, but it seems that you may jump to the idea that people set out to harm you from the onset rather than they just screwed up and ended up hurting you. I see those as two very different things.

I can generally get beyond a screw up, even a very major one, even a very hurtful one, knowing that I am just as flawed and prone to error in judgement as the next guy. I don't see therapists as being on some pedestal that makes them impervious to screw ups; therefore, sometimes they will screw up. I don't particularly see the therapist relationship as any different when it comes to the need to repair and move on. I think in that ability comes a great deal of learning and strengthening and growing.

Thanks Chris,
Again it goes back to my black and white thinking at times!
It's hard to not take things personally for me lately especially when you are vulnerable.
I don't think they deliberately set out to hurt me but it happened and it's hard to separate the two!
Because they didn't admit to their part and tried to blame me for reacting, I think that hurt more that the actual betrayal.
There is learning and growth in moving forwards from a fall out but first I need to distinguish whether a relationship is worth salvaging. I think only one of the therapists I have seen is worth working through this with.

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[Leah123]

My therapist is definitely filling that good enough mother role, and I feel very lucky to be in a therapeutic relationship with her, though it's challenging to be so vulnerable. I think a therapist can definitely be good enough: I did have a really good therapeutic relationship in high school too, though brief, so, I guess that gave me a sense of optimism even though I had subsequently very bad experiences in therapy for a while.

Hard to say if your expectations are unrealistic without knowing what they are. "Good enough" is all about consistency- the mother-figure responding in a consistent, caring way, but not about being perfectly attuned, since it is through misattunement and delays that the child-figure eventually experiences some of its growth. I think the nature of the good enough mother is that she will make mistakes, perhaps including lying, but that she is devoted and humble. I would ask myself "what were my therapist's intentions" when I evaluated a mistake she made- was she trying to betray or lie to you, or trying to help you and did it badly? Was it a breach she worked to fix, or one she let fester? I try to judge a lot by intentions: I may be *very* upset by missteps in therapy, where I feel my most volatile, but... once I cool down, and can see my therapist's helpful intentions, it gets much easier to continue with her and trust her.

[HazelGirl]

I definitely agree with Sierra. It's really hard to separate out intention and result, but very few people are so evil that they go around purposely harming others simply to get a reaction.

[growlithing]

I also full heartedly agree with Chris. I hear people all the time use the word betrayed where it doesn't belong. However, there is some gray area with the word because if you feel betrayed, it's still very strong and very real even if the person wasn't in their reality set out to get you. For example (and I know this example is EXTREMELY hairy), but my mother probably did not intend on deliberately hurting me or traumatizing me. She is very unaware of her own actions and honestly has no idea that her words and actions are capable of affecting anyone in a negative way. She doesn't understand that you can't say things to her kids like "I sometimes wish you were never born" or say she loves me and the next day say she hates me without damaging me and confusing me. Was she actually "out to get me"? Probably not. Was I still hurt and "betrayed"? Depends on how you want to define the word "betray". If the word means that person made a promise to be a certain way and then went back on it, yes she did betrays. But if it has to be a deliberate action to harm someone against promising not to, it is a matter of interpretation. In my reality, it was. In hers, it wasn't. Which one of us is more connected to reality is a matter of opinion and doesn't matter to me because this is how I feel.

But my mom sucked and wasn't good enough regardless of if she literally "betrayed" me. LCM is good enough

I don't want my t to be perfect, just consistent and mean what they say- I do t think that's too much to ask for
I disagree about your mother growlything. I think anyone would know that by saying things like that to their children is going to harm them and if they say they didn't know it is an excuse for their bad behaviour.
People use excuses all the time to get away with hurting people.

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Yes, intent is clear in some cases even when people will deny their intent. If my husband decides to have an affair, he might try to claim he didn't "intend" to hurt me, but anyone with any brains realizes that having an extramarital affair is going to end up in harm is the VAST majority of cases. It is a deliberate choice to take an action that almost inevitably ends up in harm.

On the other hand, some people do things that really can't be automatically classified as and predicted to be harmful, yet they end up causing harm anyway completely unintentionally. That's a different scenario. If my husband told me I shouldn't wear that outfit anymore, his intent might have been to be helpful, but nevertheless I might be very wounded by the suggestion that my favorite outfit is inappropriate/ugly/horrendous, etc. I could really get my feelings hurt by that. We might argue about that, and I suspect my husband would be a bit taken aback at first because he didn't set out to say that in order to insult me or hurt me. He doesn't even realize what he has said wrong at first or why it upsets me. It was never his intention to hurt me. In fact, he would never intentionally set out to hurt me. But I took it that way. I was truly wounded, and we might have to work through that to get things back to normal.

[brillskep]

That is the point of "good enough mother" - of course the mother (and therapist) will let us down at some point, in some way (even if only in a small way). They are human and imperfect. The important thing is that they are good enough to provide us with the necessary care to help us grow and develop. That also leaves room for them to be flawed enough that the child (in the case of therapy, client) gets used to the reality that to err is human and life is imperfect, that sometimes mom (or therapist) is available and sometimes she isn't, but that that's okay because she's there enough.

In the case of my therapist - yes, he is a good enough therapist for me. Thank you for reminding me.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Even if they have lied and betrayed you? I understand that most relationships can be salvaged but at what expense to yourself!

There always has to be mutual agreement that things can be put right again but if you feel that the other has caused too much intentional hurt whilst trying to empower you, see it's a double sword when the hurt comes from a therapist. The person whom is teaching us to respect ourself but then they sometimes do not respect us.

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Again, we've all been hurt. Some of those hurts are really bad. We can, as a result, be way more sensitive to subsequent hurts. No one is saying to stay in an abusive environment, but keep an open mind and an open heart. As chris said, keep intent in mind (it's not the only criteria of course, but it figures into the balance).

The ability to face hurt, absorb it, resolve it, and stay in the relationship takes courage and a whole lot of ego strength.

Therapy is a place to re-build that strength.

You absolutely can trust your therapist. In fact, you can trust them even if they don't follow through or make a mistake. They can be good enough, you just have to be open to it.

I like your optimism Elliemay
I believe 99% of therapists are trustworthy but so are 99% of doctors until they misdiagnose and cause unrepairable damage- would you go back to try fix it. I think sometimes we put too much trust in our ts

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[HazelGirl]

Yes, every doctor, therapist, friend, parent, mentor, and person will make mistakes. It will happen. Your choice is to either avoid all people and relationships and be miserable and alone all the time. Or you can engage in relationships, knowing that sometimes they will hurt. And you will be miserable and in pain some of the time. Which would you prefer? All the time guaranteed misery and pain? Or some of the time pain with many great moments in between the painful moments?

Originally Posted by HazelGirl

Yes, every doctor, therapist, friend, parent, mentor, and person will make mistakes. It will happen. Your choice is to either avoid all people and relationships and be miserable and alone all the time. Or you can engage in relationships, knowing that sometimes they will hurt. And you will be miserable and in pain some of the time. Which would you prefer? All the time guaranteed misery and pain? Or some of the time pain with many great moments in between the painful moments?

I have very healthy relationships outside of therapy!
I do engage in relationships and very satisfying ones!

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[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I have very healthy relationships outside of therapy!
I do engage in relationships and very satisfying ones!

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I'm glad to hear that. You know this, then. It's true, and it's something I have had to learn, which is why I say it.

[HazelGirl]

Oh, and based on what you have already said about your old T, you're better off seeing a different person. I didn't mean to say that you were wrong to leave, just that walking into all relationships with the same skepticism and commitment to run if they ever make a mistake will end with you alone.

But an amputation or death, etc. IS irreparable by physical nature. A relationship is often very reparable because of its personal dynamics, the ability to discuss and work through and heal, etc. Not really a valid comparison.

Of course there are irreparable relationships, therapy or otherwise, but the trick is to not necessarily throw away an entire relationship over a reparable, recoverable error. I've learned if I am to be forgiven for my errors in life, I have to be willing and open to forgiving others for their errors in life. It's a karma thing really.

That doesn't mean I have to accept abuse. I don't. Ever. But honestly, only a very few people in my life have ever truly abused me and done massive damage that was next to impossible to recover from (although I've come pretty close to recovering completely on my own with no help from them). The "damage" most people have caused me has been proportionately smaller, certainly has had less long-term impact, and has, if I keep things honestly in perspective, been very benign by any comparison to the horrific intentional damage put on me by some truly horrific individuals.

My husband knows he has a "habit" of painting all hurts with the same paintbrush that was created by the abuse and neglect and cruelty of his family. He's learning to take a breath, take a firm step back, and clear his vision so he can see what is really happening as opposed to the distorted version he sees "automatically" due to his history. It takes deliberate effort and LOTS of practice to get out of a "habit" that is so engrained in us.

We get hurt in life, and NO ONE is so perfect that they will never make the errors that cause those hurts, not even our therapists. Learning to see those incidents in perspective and reality, not enmeshed with our history, is a huge challenge and we often can't quite manage it. That's okay. Maybe we aren't there yet. It's a process. But it is important to at least recognize that perhaps one day we will be able to see events with more perspective even if we can't do it now. Just recognizing the thought process we are going through is a step in the right direction, even if we aren't quite able to make the full correction.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

But an amputation or death, etc. IS irreparable by physical nature. A relationship is often very reparable because of its personal dynamics, the ability to discuss and work through and heal, etc. Not really a valid comparison.

Of course there are irreparable relationships, therapy or otherwise, but the trick is to not necessarily throw away an entire relationship over a reparable, recoverable error. I've learned if I am to be forgiven for my errors in life, I have to be willing and open to forgiving others for their errors in life. It's a karma thing really.

That doesn't mean I have to accept abuse. I don't. Ever. But honestly, only a very few people in my life have ever truly abused me and done massive damage that was next to impossible to recover from (although I've come pretty close to recovering completely on my own with no help from them). The "damage" most people have caused me has been proportionately smaller, certainly has had less long-term impact, and has, if I keep things honestly in perspective, been very benign by any comparison to the horrific intentional damage put on me by some truly horrific individuals.

My husband knows he has a "habit" of painting all hurts with the same paintbrush that was created by the abuse and neglect and cruelty of his family. He's learning to take a breath, take a firm step back, and clear his vision so he can see what is really happening as opposed to the distorted version he sees "automatically" due to his history. It takes deliberate effort and LOTS of practice to get out of a "habit" that is so engrained in us.

We get hurt in life, and NO ONE is so perfect that they will never make the errors that cause those hurts, not even our therapists. Learning to see those incidents in perspective and reality, not enmeshed with our history, is a huge challenge and we often can't quite manage it. That's okay. Maybe we aren't there yet. It's a process. But it is important to at least recognize that perhaps one day we will be able to see events with more perspective even if we can't do it now. Just recognizing the thought process we are going through is a step in the right direction, even if we aren't quite able to make the full correction.

I think it is a valid comparison as you are hiring someone with skills and expertise and putting a lot of trust in them to do a job right!

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Originally Posted by HazelGirl

Oh, and based on what you have already said about your old T, you're better off seeing a different person. I didn't mean to say that you were wrong to leave, just that walking into all relationships with the same skepticism and commitment to run if they ever make a mistake will end with you alone.

Thank you Hazelgirl

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Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I think it is a valid comparison as you are hiring someone with skills and expertise and putting a lot of trust in them to do a job right!

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But the damage itself generally ISN'T physically reparable with a medical error, so trying to "fix" the damage is completely futile and impossible. Relationships (which is what therapy is pretty much about) are capable of being healed under the right circumstances. They are always completely beyond repair. The "damage" that may occur in a therapy relationship isn't inherently irreparable like the physical damage resulting from medical malpractice. That is why your comparison just doesn't quite work.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

But the damage itself generally ISN'T physically reparable with a medical error, so trying to "fix" the damage is completely futile and impossible. Relationships (which is what therapy is pretty much about) are capable of being healed under the right circumstances. They are always completely beyond repair. The "damage" that may occur in a therapy relationship isn't inherently irreparable like the physical damage resulting from medical malpractice. That is why your comparison just doesn't quite work.

I get your point but you are missing mine: why should we have to pay for a mistake that isn't ours to fix. We pay a lot of money, mine out of pocket as insurance doesn't cover therapy here to keep going back for them to keep making mistakes. I think we are both right in different levels here. It doesn't have to be right or wrong just we have different takes on it.
Would someone be so forgiving if a teacher thought their kids the wrong syllabus or an electrician to wire their house but they didn't do it right and the house went on fire!

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[Asiablue]

Talking about betrayal... i think the betrayal comes not from the mistake made by the therapist but how it's handled or mishandled once the mistake is uncovered. The betrayal come from being let down badly by a trusted professional who's job it is "to do no harm". The damage comes from the therapist not owning up to their part in the therapy taking a nose-dive and either lying to cover their own asses or terminating the client with little notice.

[HazelGirl]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I get your point but you are missing mine: why should we have to pay for a mistake that isn't ours to fix. We pay a lot of money, mine out of pocket as insurance doesn't cover therapy here to keep going back for them to keep making mistakes. I think we are both right in different levels here. It doesn't have to be right or wrong just we have different takes on it.
Would someone be so forgiving if a teacher thought their kids the wrong syllabus or an electrician to wire their house but they didn't do it right and the house went on fire!

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I would definitely forgive a teacher for giving a child the wrong syllabus, as long as the mistake is corrected. In that situation, the only cost is the loss of time. In the case of the electrician, there are physical things lost that cannot be replaced. In therapy, you don't lose physical things when the T makes a mistake. No one is perfect.

My doctor once gave me an antibiotic that I ended up being allergic to. I became incredibly sick. The doctor made a mistake. Does that mean she's bad at her job? No. It just means that wasn't the most effective treatment for me and we needed another one. Did I still have to pay for the doctor visits and the medications, even the one that harmed me? Yep. That's how life goes. Everyone responds to treatments differently.