She's Moonlighting!!?!!

Also, I'd be angry and hurt for a while, and have to work through that.

It might be something that permanently damaged the working relationship for me. It might not be logical, but it might.

EDIT: I cross posted you. I'm glad she's talking about it. Money is always a tricksy beast.

Yes, that's the thing. All I'm really doing with this thread is trying to say "What!!!! My T is offering her services cheaper somewhere else? I feel broke over here and am not happy about paying more. What gives! Is there a way to make this better?"

That's like the gist of it: that I just wanted some space to work it through, to vent and process.

This is a passing concern, part of an ongoing process sure, but this is just an event. I saw the site, I had a reaction... that's all. Sometimes we need to make the big decisions, like the ones I've made to see her, to refinance my house, to get better financial control, to work on my anxiety to improve my financial control, etc.

And sometimes... I just need to have someone to tell that something crazy happened. I found out my T is moonlighting, lol.

I have a session tomorrow. We'll work it out. I may write her a bit tonight too, since she replied again to me, and just explain for her where I was and am with this emotionally. I think she'll understand. She knows where I am stress-wise.

Well, for all you diehards who've followed this thread, here's basically the resolution of my concern. I wrote to my therapist, and she replied. Here they are, for anyone who wants to see.

MY MESSAGE TO HER:

"Hi there XXXXXXX. When I read your message, I felt a mixture of relief and concern. Relief that you maybe understood a bit about the incongruity and of course also that this was now a non-issue. Concern that you might do something detrimental based on information from me. (Of course, I tell myself you wouldn't do that, you are more than capable of acting in your own best interests. I'm mostly sure of that, but I think, for example, about a 90 minute phone session Friday, after you told me your limit was one hour, and I worry, just a little bit. I tell myself you chose to stay on the phone and were willing, but that's slightly incongruous (HA) with what you'd stated in the past about needing the limit to be one hour.)

Now that I'm feeling relieved, it's certainly easier to get to the point I was working on getting to, to tell you how I felt when I looked up that site. It's embarrassing for me and challenging to do so. I was going to talk to you about it regardless, but it got much easier when I read your message.

It's so complex how I feel, I've been discussing it on a forum about therapy, and I'll try to be as accurate and honest as I can.

I felt angry and I felt hurt. What I saw was a website where you were offering your services at a significantly lower rate, sure a site with different limits, but still, the program touted on that site offered daily chat and other appealing features. So, I saw that you were affiliated with that program, and I saw that you were able to accept direct PayPal payments from clients.

I felt.... so upset, maybe a mixture of hurt and frustrated and ambivalent and mad. Because at the time, I "saw" that you were offering things that would make this therapy so much easier and I didn't know about it and was left out. Because working with you on another site ANY other site would be better financially, my rate would drop while your income would still increase significantly. A win win which would be so helpful to me, if not for the bounds of the XXXXXXX (Site 1) agreement, which I recently reviewed.

You know I have a fair amount of stress about finances, so I just had quite a reaction to seeing that new information and feeling constrained and displeased about the current setup. It reminded me, it... highlighted the challenge it is to pursue therapy and even though nothing changed for me... just seeing that other option made me aware of other possibilities again, better ones, and so it was that much harder, for several hours to stomach the current arrangement.

I hope you can understand.

It was confusing, as you said, to figure out your setup there. Confusing to me, upsetting.

Sometimes, I think... rather coldly, about just quitting this therapy and the financial peace I'd have if I did. But I don't want to be that girl who could cut lose a relationship for financial reasons. I don't want to be able to just "turn off" a relationship like a water tap.

I want to say I knew you for years and we did well. I don't want to cut and run because it's hard. And now I'm really crying.

I wanted to talk about PTSD tomorrow, the symptoms again, I thought it'd be better, because I was getting some more peace with where I am right now... feeling a bit better, less dissociated and more understanding.

But now I need to retrace the steps I took to get there, because when I saw that website yesterday, I really reacted to the missed opportunity of not being able to work with you in a financially easier way.

Oh my. I feel I've said a lot. This type of honesty always gives me a knee jerk impulse to be afraid. I don't know if I should be afraid or not. In the emotional intensity I feel a bit blinded as to whether I've said potentially problematic things. Maybe my mention of the long phone session will cause an issue, maybe my discussing finances again will cause one, and maybe somehow, my reaction will bother you. I don't stop to analyze, at the moment, sigh, am just going to hit send."

HER REPLY:

"Oh Leah, I totally understand how you felt when you saw that I was on the other site and I am totally okay with your concerns and issues. You really did me a favor by pointing out the search result; I did not know that was happening, and it was messy and confusing. I agree it would be better financially for us both if we had connected on that site instead of XXXXXX (Site 1). But we are here and I am bound by and want to honor my agreement with XXXXXX (Site 1), as you know. It is what it is (a little DBT, HA!).

So don't worry; we are totally okay. Hope you are having a good Father's Day. Talk with you tomorrow, XXXXXXXX"

Thanks for the update. Are you ok with this?

Although it sounded nice initially, I think her answer kind of sux. But i'm not the one who has to live with it.

It seems like you are stuck on the money issue, but if I interpret this correctly she straight out lied to you

I wouldn't be able to trust a lying therapist.

She didn't lie, but I can understand how it seems that way. Site 1 allows her to use other sites. Site 1 does not allow her to see its clients on other sites. I had to review all the policies myself last night, to get perfectly clear on everything.

I'd hoped there might be a way around that, but without breaking her agreement, which isn't an option, there is not a way around it.

If she were to leave the current site for another one, that might change things, but definitely for at least as long as she needs Site 1, which will probably be forever, she's abiding by their policies, which I respect. I just hate the fee structure.

It would be a great fantasy for her to leave the site for me to see her for less, but there's no way she should rely on any one client, even one as devoted as me, lol, to sustain her business. That would be bad for business and for boundaries.

You know I have a fair amount of stress about finances, so I just had quite a reaction to seeing that new information and feeling constrained and displeased about the current setup.

Sometimes, I think... rather coldly, about just quitting this therapy and the financial peace I'd have if I did. But I don't want to be that girl who could cut lose a relationship for financial reasons. I don't want to be able to just "turn off" a relationship like a water tap.

But now I need to retrace the steps I took to get there, because when I saw that website yesterday, I really reacted to the missed opportunity of not being able to work with you in a financially easier way.


Hi Leah,

You seem torn re: asking her for a lower rate because you are not sure if you need one but I think you clearly do. Your discomfort is very obvious in your email to her. Even if you are not going further into debt, paying her at the rate you are paying her at now is a financial hardship for you. And it's not like you would be asking her for something she didn't already offer you! It's ok to admit you need help! We all do sometimes!

As for her response...I thought it was shallow and had more to do with her than to do with you.
And I really hope she did not charge you for that because I would feel very angry for you if that's the case.

I didn't perceive her response as shallow, and I was wondering why I didn't and you did. I think it's because the response doesn't include context that I have. We've already talked about the financial hardship of therapy at length, so she didn't need to reply in detail because her acknowledgement reassures and reminds me that we're still on the same page I guess.

She also knows that one of my ongoing concerns is anxiety about her responses (transference issue) so she's always focused on giving me that reassurance that things are okay, that's a focus specific to me I guess.

See, she has already made a couple concessions for me, though certainly, I've let my pride keep me from asking.

First, when I was upset by her first rate increase in January, she told me that she would only accept my agreement to pay the new rate if I *promised* to tell her if it was unaffordable. She assured me it would be no trouble if it was, and it was important for me to be able to talk about that.

Second, when she raised her rate a second time this year, she told me it would not affect me, that she was happy to extend the current rate indefinitely, that I'd earned it.

Third, when she saw I was doing two email sessions a week, she volunteered to let me just do one extended email session, so instead of maybe $100, I'd spend $50 on the email component.

So...those are all part and parcel of our history and things I guess I keep in mind when I read her replies, that we already have an understanding about my stress and dealing with it.

The other element is cutting session times. Although I LOVE long sessions, I don't need them to manage, so I've asked for her help to try and manage session time better and cut back.

So... it's like an ongoing process.

I'm wondering about what you said about needing a rate cut though, sigh, it kind of rings true, but I have to think about it more and I have to... maybe see how my finances do with the changes I've already made. I don't know....

P.S. As far as whether she'll charge me for that email.... well, I hope not, but I'm not sure. I'm going to wait and see. I believe, from the brevity of her response she doesn't intend to charge me, because no, I don't consider it much of a therapy session.

Well, maybe because I'm already used to the idea of being stuck with that site, it was just upsetting to think for a while there might be another option.

I was content with her answer. At least she understands where I'm coming from and agrees, but I appreciate her consistency about sticking by the agreement she has with the site, even if I'm not happy about the fees. Sigh, what's a girl to do. Take it or leave it... the rate's not unfair, it's just hard to pay.

Are you sure you don't have an introject too?? Jk

Sounds like you're willing to live with it, at least for now.

Wait, what is an "email session?" Her response just sounds like she's sorry she got caught.

An email session is a therapeutic conversation via email. I write her (usually a few pages) about a concern I have or perhaps a dream or a troubling experience and she writes back at length. We may each reply a few times and at the conclusion of the conversation, I pay a fee for the service.

One nice thing she's done to help with my financial stress is to let me extend our email communication over a three day period (the length between our Monday and Friday session) and only charge for 30 minutes of her time for the entire session.

Please forgive me if I'm out of line on my response. I can relate somewhat to your situation as I too am married, with young children and a demanding career. I originally started seeing my T for grief counseling, but it has turned into more managing life including marriage and parenting issues and work stress. I have also become attached to my T which is good and bad. I also have to pay out of pocket as he does not accept my insurance at this time. I don't see him consistently but I really have to question myself when I set up an appointment deciding if seeing him is worth the money. Ultimately it is, but again I don't see him every week nor could I afford to because it would affect our family.

Your T is the one that is required to maintain boundaries and ensure that the therapeutic relationship is beneficial. Honestly, the amount of money you are paying weekly for therapy I find almost unethical on her part. The transaction of money in therapy is an important exchange and it's a large part of what differentiates therapy from friends. However, in your case you are not asking her for free counseling in any way shape or form. She has the means to offer her services in a different venue that would be beneficial to both of you. I am very suspicious as to why she won't think of other avenues of therapy.

Also, I know you may not want to hear it, but I do think it is up to her to wean you down to a lot less therapy so that you are not spending so much money. It reminds me of a friend who had fibromyalgia and became dependent/addicted to pain meds. Where does the pain end and the addiction begin? I know you think you need multiple sessions per week, but I think you should quickly work toward going down to one session to save money and time.

I hope that your T is willing to work out another solution for you. If not, I really think you should think long and hard about this therapy relationship.

Hi. I read your post and wanted to fill in some blanks and clarify my position about my therapy.

I don't need multiple sessions a week. I want them. I believe they improve my quality of life and have lots of evidence of it from my first year of therapy. Right now, I see my therapist twice per week and send a midweek email.

I really don't think it's her place to wean me or attempt to control my spending. (I do appreciate though, how she's partnered with me to try and be more mindful of session times and volunteered the email session discount after I told her I needed to cut back.) I'm mentally capable and wouldn't want anyone to try and take responsibility for me. That's my job. I'm not perfect, but I am capable.

I am indeed really living a hectic life right now: I work 60 hours per week and am a full time college student, in addition to taking care of my family and managing the household. I am in school to help me transition into a more meaningful career where I can work a 40 hour week. School is done in 11 more months. In the meantime, having a therapist's support is particularly helpful during this crunch period. Definitely helps keep my PTSD in check.

I'm not sure how you've decided the amount is unethical. For a therapist with 20 years experience and her specializations to charge $100 an hour is below average. The therapist my husband sees, in town, bills $180 per hour, for example, which is average for our area, in terms of non-interns. The difference is, he pays for insurance which subsidizes some of the cost, and my T doesn't accept insurance.

I'm changing my insurance plan actually, to help offset the cost as well, since I don't benefit from the insurance.

It is my life, and my therapist can't rescue me from it, nor should she. Success is about making the best decisions for myself, balancing priorities, and experience is the way to do it, not letting a therapist impose her decision making process on me.

Might be one thing if I were mentally impaired enough to not be functional, but that's not my case. I'm employed, educated, have a stable family life, etc. I just want an improved quality of life, and of course, I want to be an excellent parent.

It's a bit like a student loan situation: I've incurred a high short term cost for long term quality of life. I've seen her about 16 months now and have now cut our session time in half.

And actually, while she's a significant expense in my life, she's helped me deal with my anxiety better so I'm not doing more harmful things I used to do, like using my 401(k) plan to pay my bills. I feel I'm actually at a turning point with money in my life and if I hold my course a few months, I anticipate feeling much better financially.

P.S. As far as her offering her services in a different venue, unfortunately, not an option for us, unless she violates the agreement with her current agency, and that wouldn't be wise for her, nor does she feel it would be ethical, and I appreciate that even if I don't love it. She's allowed to use multiple agencies, but not to take clients from the first agency, which is understandable.

Also, as far as her being willing to work out a solution: she would lower her rate if I told her I was unable to pay the current rate. She asked me to promise to tell her if that became the case, she was adamant about that and wants to work with me in a healing way, not make my financial stress worse. It's my choice to compromise on the expense: to balance my budget but deal with the reality of paying off my debt more slowly than I could if I was in therapy, though I am taking many steps to maximize my income and minimize expenses to try and better balance my budget. I've definitely made strides, though am not content yet.

This has been a really interesting thread and I think you have responded to the collective concerns here in a very intentional and thoughtful, reflective way. That's been very cool to observe and there is much to be learned here from how you've processed this with and without your T.

What I would add here is something from the perspective of a client who works with a T within an organization. My previous T's worked for themselves, so there were no ethical responsibilities they had besides how they conducted their therapy with their clients. But when T's sign on to organizations/agencies, they promise/agree/contract to abide by the policies of that organization. In return for receiving clients who could not find them otherwise (I never would have met my T if she was not part of this agency, so I am grateful for that), T's promise to do the business of therapy (outside the T room) in certain ways.

If a T is unhappy about with the organization, she can always leave and set up shop somewhere else or on her own. And at least when changing places completely, she can take her clients with her, at least for those groups (e.g. social workers) who say that T's act in the best interests of clients. But what she can't do is shuttle her clients to another agency or privately and continue to take clients through the first agency. That is just using the organization as well as violating its policies. It's dishonest and akin to stealing or perpetrating fraud with that organization.

It would be important to me that my T follows the contractual obligations she has with her agency, until she decides to leave it. I don't think I would feel safe with a T who jerks her organization around, cheats on it, or otherwise doesn't fulfill her obligations to it. All those things are unethical to me and it would make me feel unsafe. If she can jerk around or cheat or break promises to her employer/organization that serves to allow for my therapy to happen, I would feel like she could jerk me around, or cheat me or break promises to me.

I loved reading your post. Thanks for the affirmation and explanation. I completely agree with you that once I had all the facts, it was clear to me my therapist was acting in accordance with the agreement of the site we're on, but also that she was being principled and following her ethical mandate to be honest.

I have two reactions to that. The first more minor one is dislike. I want to change the rules to suit me, HA. In my earlier life, I sometimes did that. I struggled with ethics, I struggled with self-respect, I struggled to decide what was black, what was white, and where in the grey I was comfortable. As I've matured and as I've gone through therapy, I'm increasingly more ethical, more centered, more authentic and have more integrity.

So, the part of me that wants the rules to change for my benefit is shrinking. It's hard to not get to pay less, I mean, that's hard to sit with, but...

My second, lasting, chosen response is that I would not have it any other way. You're right that if she's not honest with them, it doesn't bode well for me or anyone, but even in the absence of that self-serving motivation...

I want her to have integrity for its own sake. It's hard to be "at home" when I'm not ethical, and I know our therapy benefits from us sticking to our principles, even when they might seem constraining.

I'm paying a lot, but... no, I am not forced. The choice isn't easy, but it is worthwhile. I just had a good session with her and worked through a lot: I'm reminded of her high value to me and the wealth I gain from our relationship: not material but equally valuable.

I never was a starving student. I dropped out of high school due to PTSD, though I didn't know the name for it at the time. Now, I'm a student again, and maybe I just need to live a little of that life for a while... on the cheap and appreciating that my investment now will bear fruit later.

Here's hoping I'm up to it!

want to hear something crazy? If not~ don't continue.

On some level~ I don't trust my therapist. I don't trust my therapist because I believe she will put my best interest first and do the right thing. Doing the right thing is important to me but I might not want to do the right thing.

I couldn't form a therapeutic relationship on the internet or telephone but I imagine if I were in your shoes, I would have contacted her from the other site and probably insulted my therapist for needing help to figure it out.

It's been an interesting read.

I was tempted to contact her via the other site, and I was tempted to take a cheap shot at her ethics when I thought they were in question.

Trusting my therapist has been a long process and is not complete. I believe 100% that she's in my corner and whatever she believes is right for me, she will do that.

Emotionally... I'd say I'm sure of that about 80% of the time. When I'm stressed, my doubts get louder.

It's been about 16 months now though, and I feel much better than I did at the start about it though, so that's good.

Leah,

I truly don't understand. Why can't you end your contract with her on the current site and start up via a new site, at a lower rate?

What's the worst that can happen to her?

If a site is overcharging for a service, why should a client (and therapist), continue to use the service? Contracts have end dates, don't they?

I don't see how it is unethical in the slightest.

The site exists and every time you've each used the site, you've paid for it. It's not like you have to continue to use the site. You're paid in full at the end of each session, right?

Take other Internet sites that are delivery mechanisms, such as a streaming music service or a dating search service. If I pay $30 a month for streaming music or for dating search, I can stop paying that monthly fee if I find a better service that offers the same thing for cheaper.

If I have a three-month contract, I can switch at the end of that contract.

If the therapy service site mandates that clients stick with that therapist forever, I don't think that's a legally enforceable contract. Sure, there may be a minimum length of time in the contract, to prevent therapists from being advertised on the site and then taking the clients elsewhere. But surely you've paid your dues to this site and can move on?

This site has way too much sway over an important relationship in your life!

Oh PeeJay, I couldn't agree more about disliking the terms of use for this site. Yes, I do pay the fee each session, and yes, I do wish and feel there should be some out, but... of course that wouldn't make sense for the site, sigh.

To sum them up, and to explain why we can't do cheaper therapy:

Therapists may do therapy on the site and other sites.
Therapists may not see a client they met on the site on the other sites.
I pay roughly 50% of the fee to the site.
If I go to another site where she's working, they lose the 50%.
So, they do not allow me to take my business and my therapist elsewhere. If I want to work with her, I'm obliged to do it through them.
If I do see her on another site, and they find out, they can ban her from the site we use now, and I don't think she could afford that.
Even if she could afford it, she says no to seeing me elsewhere because she is honoring her agreement with them.

Yeah, it is like a lifetime finder's fee... they get a cut, forever, of my payments.

No, I definitely don't like it.

The site can not mandate I stick with her... but it can mandate she does not agree to see me elsewhere or she suffers the financial penalty of not being able to work that site anymore, because she would be poaching clients.

Yes, I wish the site had less influence on our relationship. If I only happened to find her on another site first, it would all be radically different... but... I did not, and as she said, it is what it is.

Can you go under another name to the other site? Although I know it's dishonest but the site your on is ridiculous with its rules.

It was a thought, but your t might not want to or you as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you Sweepy. I would do it in a heartbeat, because I don't have an agreement with them. However, my therapist does and she also depends on them for part of her livlihood, so... it wouldn't work out. She would not be comfortable with the arrangement. I have suggested something similar in the past. I just need to win the lottery.