[precaryous]

This is a small study from Johns Hopkins but I find it very interesting:

Scientists discover a genetic indicator that could help prevent suicides (Science Alert)

[gayleggg]

I just wish it could lead them to something that will reduce suicidal ideation. I would be willing to try the first pill.

[stopdog]

I find this sort of thing very unsettling. It can lead to all sorts of abuse by the western medical profession.

[NowhereUSA]

i personally think this is fascinating. this would be so helpful. can you imagine being able to test for it early on? depression runs in my family. early intervention for my children would be spectacular imo.

[stopdog]

It is a slippery slope. There is a very fine line between offering assistance and control/abuse.

[NowhereUSA]

any medical advancement has the power to be abused. i'm not really sure what you're overly worried about. we've been identifying genetic markers for all sorts of things for some time now...

[stopdog]

I am not overly worried. I work in an area where I see this sort of thing abused all the time. I do not want to be protected/intervened from myself. In the mental health/criminal law arenas it is often forced upon people (my clients) against their will and in the name of doing good. Very chilling.

[Perna]

I'm curious as to what they will do with people with that chemical alteration to that gene? So they find out I am prone to suicidal thoughts/attempts and have that gene alteration -- I can't think of anything worse than being wrapped in cotton wool and having to eat with plastic utensils? Or having that chemical problem overwhelmed by another chemical so I'm "numb"? Maybe they can take out the gene, give one a stress lobotomy?

I cannot imagine many people with suicidal thoughts have the gene alteration though, they can only say the opposite, 80-90% accuracy that if you have the alternation you have the thoughts.

[NowhereUSA]

i guess i'm thinking that since i know depression runs in my family, as does suicidal ideation, that i could have my children tested. not so i can take away all the sharp utensils (which is false thinking, after all, i'm very suicidal but i could hardly muster up the nerve to die in a manner in which i have to deal with blood) - but so that i can interact with them in a way that gets them help early on. right now i'm playing guess work - waiting until puberty to see what manifests.

plus there maybe medical benefits. right now they can only identify the gene but they maybe able to see how the brain operates and create a medicine for those who have this particular genetic mutation.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

but so that i can interact with them in a way that gets them help early on. right now i'm playing guess work - waiting until puberty to see what manifests.

I think it is all guess work, even when we know our genes, our inherited traits, one does not necessarily choose to use them or they do not express themselves the same way for each person. The study is not really an indicator for "suicide" risk I don't think, but for suicidal thoughts and they had to know the gene was altered before they could predict the thought, not the other way around.

I liked the way depression was put forth in one book I read. Everyone has a percentage they're born with? Say a person has a 75% chance of depression. Statistics are great for groups but really suck for individuals? The book made the point that there's still that 25% of an individual with 75% chance to work with and, like other traits, one can strengthen that 25% if one wants, it is not a determinant. I think a lot of us have difficulties from our childhoods because we did not experience anyone in our corner helping us strengthen that 25%. What I know now, having been through most of my life (64 this year) is that there really isn't a time limitation on the 25%, it gets harder to strengthen the older one gets but it is possible to turn things around.

I had also read that one's genes are only good to blame or praise until age 60. But now I'm thinking it is not that simple, our genes are rarely that powerful other than in specific genetic diseases Specific Genetic Disorders that have a controlling interest, are like eye or hair color.

[NowhereUSA]

and maybe you have a point. but, at the very least, i would hope a breakthrough like this could lead to more effective medication. we already have the ability to do genetic testing that might help suggest which drugs are more effective, this might be just one more tool in the toolkit. maybe knowing it would mean my kid would only have to try two drugs and not twelve, like me... and i'm still waiting for one to work :-/

[venusss]

Interesting how many link "suicidal THOUGHTS" with "omg, maybe new pill". I get sui thoughts and last thing I want to have around me are pills that could easily change the thoughts into actions (as I learned, you cannot OD on herbal supplements, eh).

Thoughts don't neccesarily mean you will do it. Would people really drag their children into the MH system, that can be disempowering in so many ways over some gene test?

Little emotional education can help everybody. I believe each person has their breaking point, a threshold of what they can handle and once you cross it... the "crazy" (or what is labeled as "crazy") surfaces.

I don't know. I been sent to friggen shrink in kindergarten because I pretended to be a rabbit... totally peacefully. (fortunatelly she was a good shrink.) Years later another shrink recommended ADs and designers clothes for grief issues. Later on it was pill and drop out of school possibly.
So yeah, my children might inherit my depressivness. I know it. I would teach em to be compassionate with themselves, would teach them to be strong and find ways to get through hard times. Would NOT let MH system put their hands on them unless totally needed.

[NowhereUSA]

well i mean, that's great for you, but for me, my depression is debilitating. i had the opposite. everyone told me to buck up and be strong. i ended up with a mental break down in my late 20s as a result.

yes, i would absolutely, with me advocating for my child, take my kid through the mental health system. i wouldn't "drag" them through it. i would start with therapy. i would be there for them, supporting them because you know what, i have a family history of people who think 'i'll just do this on my own and so should you!' and they are all effed up. seriously. they needed mental health help and probably medication and they didn't get it.

i didn't make the jump from one thing to "PILLS" - i am looking at the positive breakthroughs that could come as a result.

the anti-AD attitude of my family and my friends kept me from getting help. so i lived in hell, alone, self injuring and struggling with dark, horrendous thoughts that no one should have to carry. i will be damned if i let my child live through this hell.

[stopdog]

To each their own. The problem with mental health stuff is how often it is forced upon people and how often it is wrong and how very very bad the alleged treatment can be -drugs, restraints, emotional abuse in the name of treatment and so forth can have very long lasting and very terrible side-effects.
Until the 70s I could have been committed for being a lesbian. If I had let my parents know, they certainly could have had the attitude of "I will be damned if..." and they would have thought they were doing it for my own good.

[NowhereUSA]

so much pessimism :P lol.

maybe i find such things fascinating so i like to see the positive outcomes. i don't know who's going to be forcing whatever on me... O.o

[venusss]

I am glad the MH system works for you.

But I am sceptical any great breakthrough will come of this. This type of thoughts is complex, there's many reasons behind. No "broken gene, insert pill". Hard to target thing as fleeting as thoughts. Mind is hella complex... but at the same time too simple to understand and fully grasp such complex thing as mind...

Why would you need this test anyways? You already have a good helping attitude to your kids. You can detect the trouble by observation or teaching your kids to be able to talk about stuff openly. Genes or no genes. You yourself can do a lot for your kids...or anybody by mere compassion.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

so much pessimism :P lol.

maybe i find such things fascinating so i like to see the positive outcomes. i don't know who's going to be forcing whatever on me... O.o

I think there's been cases of teen screening and meds forcing.

:///

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

so much pessimism :P lol.

maybe i find such things fascinating so i like to see the positive outcomes. i don't know who's going to be forcing whatever on me... O.o

It is not pessimism. I have friends who had it happen when they were outed. I currently have clients who have to seek protection from mh provider abuse. Drugs and others tests are forced upon them.

And it is lot more probable, in my experience, than worry a therapist will post a tape of you on the internet. I don't think it necessary to judge and belittle concerns of others just because they are different from yours. They are no less valid. I don't take pills for almost anything other than antibiotics about once every couple of years for sinus/strep throat issues. Some people seem to want to take pills for everything. Once you are in the mh system and you decide you no longer want pills, it is very common to get the label of non-complient - which makes it that much easier for them to involuntarily commit someone. I don't want them to have more tools with which to abuse my clients.

[NowhereUSA]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I am glad the MH system works for you.

But I am sceptical any great breakthrough will come of this. This type of thoughts is complex, there's many reasons behind. No "broken gene, insert pill". Hard to target thing as fleeting as thoughts. Mind is hella complex... but at the same time too simple to understand and fully grasp such complex thing as mind...

Why would you need this test anyways? You already have a good helping attitude to your kids. You can detect the trouble by observation or teaching your kids to be able to talk about stuff openly. Genes or no genes. You yourself can do a lot for your kids...or anybody by mere compassion.

it's an early study. one of the benefits i saw that could *potentially* maybe, with the advent of more studies - would be a narrowing down of medications. right now meds are a crapshoot. if someone seeking help, goes in and happens to have this particular gene and *if* there were ever to come from it a medication that could help with depression that comes with SUI, then i see possible benefit for not having to do too much trial and error.

another benefit i saw was to be able to screen my children at a young age so that i might be more aware of *possibilities* when they get older.

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I think there's been cases of teen screening and meds forcing.

:///

i guess since i don't intend to force my children to do anything and i'm a grown woman that's where i didn't really understand where stopdog was coming from.

Originally Posted by stopdog

It is not pessimism. I have friends who had it happen when they were outed. I currently have clients who have to seek protection from mh provider abuse. Drugs and others tests are forced upon them.

And it is lot more probable, in my experience, than worry a therapist will post a tape of you on the internet. I don't think it necessary to judge and belittle concerns of others just because they are different from yours. They are no less valid.

i wasn't belittling you. i was pointing out pessimism, which there is. :: shrugs :: seeing the negative outcomes without considering the positive is a pessimistic. i totally agree that there can be abuses, but there can also be benefits and the problem isn't the study (which, right now, doesn't mean a whole lot), the problem is a broken system.

[stopdog]

I completely disagree with you and your definition of pessimism and you have now called me overly concerned and pessimistic in this one thread. It is not pessimism or over concern if abuse happens - which it does. And I would rather be cautious, pessimistic and overly concerned than naive and other things which it is more prudent of me not to list. Abuse does happen. Side effects for people can be quite awful, providers and scientists abuse people and animals in the name of good, and pills/treatment are not the answer for all ills. A broken system is not fixed by more pills or chances for them to take control and choice away from individuals.

And where I am coming from, is that the mental health system imposes itself upon individuals all the time when they decide to commit someone involuntarily and force medication into that person along with other tests that are forced upon the individual. It happens all the time in every hospital in the United States. It happens to the elderly who are victims in guardianship proceedings because they are not doing what their children want them to do. I am an attorney who represents people who are held and treated against their will.

But to each their own.

[NowhereUSA]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Once you are in the mh system and you decide you no longer want pills, it is very common to get the label of non-complient - which makes it that much easier for them to involuntarily commit someone. I don't want them to have more tools with which to abuse my clients.

i guess this hasn't been my experience. ADs haven't worked on me, so i hadn't tried any more in a while. then my t suggested maybe to give it another go after a few years. so i am. no one labeled me for opting to stop the process last time and i still have the choice. i'd just cancel my pdoc appts and that would be that. i have a very supportive t and even then, he's never required appts. they're all at my behest.

i'm not disagreeing that there are abuses, but does it occur to you that because of your line of work you see the worst of it and it causes a heavily negative bias?

the tool itself is neutral. a hammer can bash someone's head in or you can put up a pretty picture. i'm just trying to make the case that this doesn't have to be used to bash in someone's head and could help someone have a pretty picture.

the answer isn't to remove all the hammers. they'll just find another tool to torture with.

[stopdog]

As much as it occurs to you that you paint too rosy a picture?
I am not advocating not to take pills if you want them. Have at it. And indeed some have been lucky with their experiences. And the difference in luck and no luck is often based upon class and color and gender.

[NowhereUSA]

Originally Posted by stopdog

As much as it occurs to you that you paint too rosy a picture?
I am not advocating not to take pills if you want them. Have at it. And indeed some have been lucky with their experiences. And the difference in luck and no luck is often based upon class and color.

i will agree that class and color play a huge role in our society. it's unfortunate and it is a problem that needs to be solved. however, science is neither good nor bad in and of itself. the method in which it is carried out can be and there are those that can and do use it to their own unethical ends. my point is that just as its *possible* benefits won't solve abuse problems neither will choosing to ignore such studies. the abuse remains regardless of whether or not anyone is studying a potential seed for a possible future breakthrough in science.

i don't think i'm being too rosy. i see *possible* benefits, but as of yet, it's a single study as far as i can tell. i see a *possible* outcome that *maybe* (and i'm stressing the *ifs* and the *maybes*) it could help narrow down medication for those of us that need it.

i'm not looking at this study and going "WOW ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD WILL BE SOLVED!" - i'm really going 'oh cool. here are some possible benefits that would be kind of awesome.' but hey, if they don't happen, they don't happen. but i also find genetic info neat anyway.

[stopdog]

Well, it does appear as though we each do not see ourselves as we may be viewed by others.

I hope the study posted does not take off and if it does, that it is not as damaging to individuals as it has the potential to be.

[venusss]

If you are bipolar and you want to taper off meds it's seen as symptom of your illness, non-compliance, and "illness lying to you". Doctor will tell you how you kindling your way to suicide and why not just add a third anti-psychotic?

if someone seeking help, goes in and happens to have this particular gene and *if* there were ever to come from it a medication that could help with depression that comes with SUI, then i see possible benefit for not having to do too much trial and error.

if somebody is having sui thoughts... they take probably price test to see if you have sui-thought-gene?
Or.... what it the test comes "negative". You no sui-gene? Will the system kick you off as drug and attention seeking?


I am more interested in seeing how to help people to deal with the thoughts when they already have to them then in some test to see if one has a "this person may or may think of suicide" gene.

If there was internet in time when phrenology came some would praise the "science" to high heaven and look down at sceptic.

Stop looking at the shiny things. Brain scans, genes... seriously... we been hearing the "any decade now" from "science" proponents for a long time now. And nada. Few YAY!Discovery... maybe, we maybe getting closer studies.