Violated my T's boundaries.... what now?

Aug 11, 2014, 01:09 PM

I wouldn't discuss it, and just put it behind you and move on. Tbh to me this doesnt sound like a terrible violation, don't worry

Aug 11, 2014, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitterrosez89

Heck, I've looked up my professors' addresses just because I was curious what types of areas they lived in. Not because I had any sexual interest in them or anything (most of my professors were women) but simply because I'm naturally curious about people...I like to know who they "are." It's really not THAT creepy of a thing to do, but would I go up to one of them and say, "I have a confession. I Googled your name, and now I know where you live..." No, because it's weird.

Omg i relate to this so much.... Happy its normal!!

NowhereUSA · Aug 11, 2014, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I think we also have personal responsibility. I kind of feel like the whole argument of if you don't want to be raped then don't wear revealing clothing. I am NOT saying what the op is doing is a crime. I just feel like we are blaming the child in this situation.

I have seen T and her son's FB page (he is 26 and we have a mutual friend)....but to blame him or T for would be inappropriate for ME...

i kind of take umbrage at this analogy. fb pages are by design meant to be seen. revealing clothing is under no circumstances an automatic sexual invite. i look people up *all the time* that i don't necessarily intend to friend. the reality is that if this is a boundary the t wants to keep, then it is absolutely her responsibility to make sure the page is locked down and then to explore those emotions and desires with the OP (i'm not blaming the daughter, i'm blaming the t who ought to be teaching her daughter responsible online behavior).

i argue this point because i think of it like i do school teachers (i have family that are teachers). they don't friend students and they keep their profiles locked tight. i wouldn't be all that surprised if a student of my mother's - if they knew my name - went glancing at my profile because they love my mom and thinks she's awesomesauce and omg want to know all the things (it's not unusual for my mom's students to get attached to her, where she teaches, many come from neglectful homes and she's attentive to them).

SnakeCharmer · Aug 11, 2014, 01:25 PM

Naya, I hope you will tell your therapist what you did and why and how distressed you feel about it. Apologize and ask for her help in learning how to curb your impulses or to find more mature ways of getting info when you need it or want it, or deciding if you even need it.

First, it wasn't a violation that came out of the clear blue sky. She'd had a death in her family, you wanted to know what was going on, so you sought info by looking at her kids' FB pages, not because you were snooping on the kids, but because you were distressed that T had experienced a death in the family and you were feeling very off-balance over it.

And then you became wracked with guilt. This is the kind of problems we go to therapy to get help with.

You may have violated the agreement with T, but there were mitigating circumstances. Being honest about this and accepting responsibility for your (minor, IMO) infraction seems like the healthiest way to go. Even if T feels annoyed with you, it's far better to get it out in the open and talk about it than to let it fester.

I personally think your violation was minor because of the mitigating circumstances. And I really dislike the idea of anyone snooping into personal info, especially around the kids. It's one of my pet peeves. My big, gigantic, judgmental pet peeve and I don't see what you did as a major deal breaker.

Honesty, with an apology and a discussion about how off-balance you felt seems like the best way to go. I would be very surprised if your T won't or can't forgive you. In the meantime, stay away from the kids on-line. Be able to honestly tell T that you've stayed away. This is a wonderful opportunity for growth.

Aug 11, 2014, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I think we also have personal responsibility. I kind of feel like the whole argument of if you don't want to be raped then don't wear revealing clothing. I am NOT saying what the op is doing is a crime. I just feel like we are blaming the child in this situation.

I have seen T and her son's FB page (he is 26 and we have a mutual friend)....but to blame him or T for would be inappropriate for ME...

Not sure if you are arguing for the clothing/rape argument or against, but of course people should wear what they want without the fear of being raped - people have a personal responsibility not TO rape, not 'not to wear revealing clothing'. It is always the fault of the perpetrator no exceptions.

nottrustin · Aug 11, 2014, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I know we disagree here and of course everyone will have their own opinion on this.

I don't think this is a case of "blaming the victim" even though I can see how it looks that way at first. Her T might have felt victimized, but I don't think someone with more savvy about social media would have.

I have a personal example of this. A couple of years ago my pdoc suggested I go on a dating site. About 2 months after I sign up, who does the site match me up with but but my pdoc! So of course I click on his profile and read the whole thing and looked at his one picture. The site shows paying members who has looked at their profile, so knew that I had looked at his (he never looked at mine, but I think that would have been riskier). I was so afraid he'd be upset with me for looking and really wanted to talk to him about it, but I couldn't bring it up and he never did (he probably couldn't). Over time, we talked about my experiences dating in session and he's allude scenarios or give me dating/profile pointers. It became an unspoken thing that we knew, but didn't have to talk about. Talking about it openly might have created an issue out of something that didn't have to be one.

I was off the site for a while, but fast another year and I logged onto it again. My pdoc was still active on it, but now had a very different profile and more pictures (one even shirtless). The profile was more flirty and showed personality, where his original was very straightforward and dry. When I saw this new profile, I finally realized I hadn't invaded my doctor's privacy by looking at his profile after all. My pdoc clearly tailored his profile to show information and pictures that he was ok with me seeing. It's a weird gray area when you're on a social networking site. The information is out there and is meant to be seen, but for people in certain professions this isn't the kind of thing you'd always want clients seeing. My pdoc could've asked me not to look at his profile I suppose, but he's realistic enough to know it's human nature to be curious and we all have many moments of weakness. But he saw it as his responsibility to control what he put online, not my or his other patients' responsibility to keep from going on the site and reading his profile.

I see there a huge difference between looking at your T's profile and one looking at the child of a T.

nottrustin · Aug 11, 2014, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8888an8888

Not sure if you are arguing for the clothing/rape argument or against, but of course people should wear what they want without the fear of being raped - people have a personal responsibility not TO rape, not 'not to wear revealing clothing'. It is always the fault of the perpetrator no exceptions.

I agree there should be no connection between rape and what one wheres. I agree with blaming the person involved. I just don't believe that a child is fair game because what their parents do as a profession.

anilam · Aug 11, 2014, 01:56 PM

Public or not, you did cross her boundary, she told you so beforehand. If it were me, I would tell my T. I enjoy how open I can be in therapy so I would just get it off my chest. However, I have no shadow of a doubt that my T would not terminate me over it.

Aug 11, 2014, 02:37 PM

Speaking as a mother, unless you have a super close relationship with your T, I would keep it under wraps. I'm not a therapist, but if someone I know intrudes in my children's personal business after I explicitly tell them not to, we're going to have a big, BIG problem.

That said, it doens't seem like any harm was done, and only the OP knows their intentions, so why not try to move on without involving the T?

glitterrosez89 · Aug 11, 2014, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I think we also have personal responsibility. I kind of feel like the whole argument of if you don't want to be raped then don't wear revealing clothing. I am NOT saying what the op is doing is a crime. I just feel like we are blaming the child in this situation.

I have seen T and her son's FB page (he is 26 and we have a mutual friend)....but to blame him or T for would be inappropriate for ME...

I don't see anyone as a victim in this scenario. I don't think anyone is being "blamed" because no one did anything wrong, except maybe the part where the therapist told the client not to look at a public website. No one is blaming the child or the psychologist for putting the information on there because there's nothing wrong with doing that. We just think it's dumb to put it there and then tell people to keep their eyes off of it.

I don't agree with the rape analogy because rape is illegal and a direct violation of one's autonomy over his or her body. That said, if I go out in a cleavege-revealing top, I have EVERY right to not be raped. However, can I realistically ask men in the same public spaces not to look at my chest, which I placed in their line of vision? I don't think so.

Aug 11, 2014, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nottrustin

I agree there should be no connection between rape and what one wheres. I agree with blaming the person involved. I just don't believe that a child is fair game because what their parents do as a profession.

I agree, the child shouldn't have to be involved. Looking at it from a different perspective now, I can see the OP's therapist not being happy at someone looking up her kids personally.

Aug 11, 2014, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glitterrosez89

However, can I realistically ask men in the same public spaces not to look at my chest, which I placed in their line of vision? I don't think so.

Men should be able to control themselves. They certainly have control over their actions.

glitterrosez89 · Aug 11, 2014, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8888an8888

Men should be able to control themselves. They certainly have control over their actions.

I agree. They should control themselves and not rape people or touch people who do not wish to be touched. I think it's ridiculous to tell them not to LOOK at somebody, however.

Lauliza · Aug 11, 2014, 04:37 PM

I honestly see this argument from both sides. I am a parent of 2 tween girls so I understand how looking at the page of someone's kid is different from looking at the page of the T herself. However, if you your kids are old enough to have a fb page then you need to monitor the privacy settings, period. She hasno idea how any other people (including clients other than the OP) have looked at her daughter's page. People browse through strangers pages all the time, it's an unfortunate reality of the Internet. There is a huge difference between looking and actual stalking. Had the OP friend requested the Ts daughter or something more personal, I would say this is something to address. The OP simply looked at her page and aside from everyone at PC, is the only person who knows. If a man discreetly looks at my cleavage and I don't know, then no one has been violated and it's not a big deal. If he leans over and stares down my shirt or is otherwise openly creepy, the it is. Yes, we all have rights to privacy of course, but we have to take the reality of human nature and curiosity into account too. When people aren't looking everyone does something they shouldn't once in a while. If there's no harm done and it doesn't escalate, I think we can cut people some slack.

glitterrosez89 · Aug 11, 2014, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I honestly see this argument from both sides. I am a parent of 2 tween girls so I understand how looking at the page of someone's kid is different from looking at the page of the T herself. However, if you your kids are old enough to have a fb page then you need to monitor the privacy settings, period. She hasno idea how any other people (including clients other than the OP) have looked at her daughter's page. People browse through strangers pages all the time, it's an unfortunate reality of the Internet. There is a huge difference between looking and actual stalking. Had the OP friend requested the Ts daughter or something more personal, I would say this is something to address. The OP simply looked at her page and aside from everyone at PC, is the only person who knows. If a man discreetly looks at my cleavage and I don't know, then no one has been violated and it's not a big deal. If he leans over and stares down my shirt or is otherwise openly creepy, the it is. Yes, we all have rights to privacy of course, but we have to take the reality of human nature and curiosity into account too. When people aren't looking everyone does something they shouldn't once in a while. If there's no harm done and it doesn't escalate, I think we can cut people some slack.

I agree. I do not have children, but I can understand why someone might hear that someone is looking at their child's FB page and think, "Whoa. Creepy. I am not comfortable with this." I'm sure I would have a similar reaction if someone told me they were looking on my little sister's profile in search of pictures of me. I just think that's why it's common courtesy not to tell that person.

There are things that everyone knows people do, yet no one really wants to hear about it. For instance, not to get gross, but everyone above a certain age knows that most people masturbate. However, I have had guys message me online to TELL me that they were masturbating to my picture. The fantasizing and masturbating isn't a violation; I can't control what someone does with their own body or mind. However, TELLING me about it is just way too much information.

Parents do need to keep children too young to know what they should never post online off of Facebook. No one younger than 13 should be on there. Personally, I don't think anyone younger than 16 should really be on there, but I guess that's Facebook's call to make.

Aug 11, 2014, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I honestly see this argument from both sides. I am a parent of 2 tween girls so I understand how looking at the page of someone's kid is different from looking at the page of the T herself. However, if you your kids are old enough to have a fb page then you need to monitor the privacy settings, period. She hasno idea how any other people (including clients other than the OP) have looked at her daughter's page. People browse through strangers pages all the time, it's an unfortunate reality of the Internet. There is a huge difference between looking and actual stalking. Had the OP friend requested the Ts daughter or something more personal, I would say this is something to address. The OP simply looked at her page and aside from everyone at PC, is the only person who knows. If a man discreetly looks at my cleavage and I don't know, then no one has been violated and it's not a big deal. If he leans over and stares down my shirt or is otherwise openly creepy, the it is. Yes, we all have rights to privacy of course, but we have to take the reality of human nature and curiosity into account too. When people aren't looking everyone does something they shouldn't once in a while. If there's no harm done and it doesn't escalate, I think we can cut people some slack.

Agreed, and since the therapist would have no clue what the OP was really doing on her daughters page, I'm betting she's going to react like it was the worst. And since it doesn't sound like the worst was actually done, I wouldn't say anything.

elliemay · Aug 11, 2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

i kind of take umbrage at this analogy. fb pages are by design meant to be seen. revealing clothing is under no circumstances an automatic sexual invite. i look people up *all the time* that i don't necessarily intend to friend. the reality is that if this is a boundary the t wants to keep, then it is absolutely her responsibility to make sure the page is locked down and then to explore those emotions and desires with the OP (i'm not blaming the daughter, i'm blaming the t who ought to be teaching her daughter responsible online behavior).

i argue this point because i think of it like i do school teachers (i have family that are teachers). they don't friend students and they keep their profiles locked tight. i wouldn't be all that surprised if a student of my mother's - if they knew my name - went glancing at my profile because they love my mom and thinks she's awesomesauce and omg want to know all the things (it's not unusual for my mom's students to get attached to her, where she teaches, many come from neglectful homes and she's attentive to them).

I think the point here is that the therapist specifically asked her not to do it. When she agreed not to, then it effectively took her daughter's page off the client's publicly available viewing. It doesn't matter what the T is teaching her daughter, it's about what the client agreed. That's the boundary violation there. That's the breach of trust.

However, I'm in agreement that, at this time, I wouldn't tell the therapist about it. It might come across stalkerish (because publicly available or not, she agreed not to look at it).

If I were the original poster I would want to talk about how I beat myself up so severely for a simple mistake.

We all screw up sometimes, it's not the end of the world and we deserve to be forgiven and, most importantly, to forgive ourselves.

NowhereUSA · Aug 11, 2014, 08:25 PM

eh. you aren't going to convince me public info ain't public just because someone doesn't want it to be. if she really had a concern about people viewing her daughter's page, then she needs to handle that, not go around dictating what other people do on the internet.

but i've had this conversation here before lol. this exact reason is why my kids won't be getting facebook until they're older teenagers because i know that realistically i have zero right to tell anyone what they can and cannot do on the internet (short of things that are illegal).

nottrustin · Aug 11, 2014, 08:33 PM

[quote=glitterrosez89;3930600]I agree. I do not have children, but I can understand why someone might hear that someone is looking at their child's FB page and think, "Whoa. Creepy. I am not comfortable with this." I'm sure I would have a similar reaction if someone told me they were looking on my little sister's profile in search of pictures of me. I just think that's why it's common courtesy not to tell that person.

There are things that everyone knows people do, yet no one really wants to hear about it. For instance, not to get gross, but everyone above a certain age knows that most people masturbate. However, I have had guys message me online to TELL me that they were masturbating to my picture. The fantasizing and masturbating isn't a violation; I can't control what someone does with their own body or mind. However, TELLING me about it is just way too much information.

As far as we know the child involved did not post anything inappropriate. She posted about the death of a family member So unless there is information that we don't have she didn't post inappropriate information. It is the fact that OP was asked to refrain from going on the child's sight and she agreed to it.

Lauliza · 11:09 PM

[QUOTE= As far as we know the child involved did not post anything inappropriate. She posted about the death of a family member So unless there is information that we don't have she didn't post inappropriate information. It is the fact that OP was asked to refrain from going on the child's sight and she agreed to it.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone was implying that the Ts daughter posted anything inappropriate, just that we can't control what other people view when they are online if the information is public.

We can argue that the T felt she could trust the OP not to do it again and that's the real violation but I don't agree. I find that pretty naive on the T's part to really believe she can tell the OP what she can and can't look at, not to mention slightly unfair. I think one of the downsides of all of the access we have is that even the most well intentioned and sincere people become a little less trustworthy when they are online. It's very hard to control impulses when the temptation is a click of the mouse away. That's why both of my daughters online profiles are set to private. It's online etiquette - you don't publish things publicly but ask certain people not to look at it. You control your or your children's presence by carefully choosing what you'll allow people to see.

glitterrosez89 · Aug 11, 2014, 10:58 PM

This thread has been a nice reminder to be very careful about what I publish online under my name because there ARE people who will find it. I've learned this the hard way a few times but need a reminder sometimes because it is SO easy to just click "submit" and publish something that will be there forever. When I was like 13, I created a dumb online petition for my favorite TV show at the time. I don't even remember what I said now, but it was embarrassing haha. I blabbed on about how sentimental the show made me feel and gushed a bunch of dumb 13-year-old feelings. A friend found it like 8 years later, and it was so embarrassing. I think that crap finally got deleted from the website some 12 years later. It never comes up in search results anymore, at least.

Lauliza · Aug 11, 2014, 11:07 PM

Glitterrosez, you are so right about that. My niece found out after she was hired for a job that human resources at her company checked her Facebook page as a way to judge her "character". Otherwise qualified candidates weren't hired because HR found too many pictures of them drunk, passed out and worse. It sounds so wrong but if it's public it's totally fine.

glitterrosez89 · Aug 12, 2014, 05:34 AM

It is definitely true, and it's not just the obvious things like drunken pictures one has to be careful about. Heck, before I decided to pursue a completely different career path than the one I'm on, my school published an article about me going on about how my prior plan was my passion in life blah blah. Now when I apply to grad schools for the new plan, I run the risk that they'll read that article and ask me how they can be confident I want to go into their field for a living when I made such a dramatic career shift. I don't have a super compelling answer to that question. People don't always have intense passions for the careers they choose; some just see practical reasons for getting into a job such as that it provides a nice lifestyle (not necessarily salary-wise but also in terms of hours worked, job security, etc.). It would be easier not to have to answer the question at all.

Anyway, on one hand it really sucks that employers use the stuff you post on your social networking site against you considering everyone knows that no one is 100% professional and straight-laced all of the time. On the other, it just does look bad for a business if its employees are pictured doing keg stands on the internet. I found a picture of one of my doctors partying once , and it was oddly upsetting.

elliemay · Aug 12, 2014, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NowhereUSA

eh. you aren't going to convince me public info ain't public just because someone doesn't want it to be. if she really had a concern about people viewing her daughter's page, then she needs to handle that, not go around dictating what other people do on the internet.

but i've had this conversation here before lol. this exact reason is why my kids won't be getting facebook until they're older teenagers because i know that realistically i have zero right to tell anyone what they can and cannot do on the internet (short of things that are illegal).

and I do not think it's appropriate to ignore an obligation just because I do not agree with it.

In my mind, this issue (which comes up a lot) is less about the intrinsic rightness of either side, but what both parties agreed to.

It's about "I respect your feelings about this and will act accordingly".

That's pretty much at the heart of any relationship if it is at all sustainable. Everybody has their thing, and its about respecting that thing.

Lauliza · Aug 12, 2014, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elliemay

and I do not think it's appropriate to ignore an obligation just because I do not agree with it.

In my mind, this issue (which comes up a lot) is less about the intrinsic rightness of either side, but what both parties agreed to.

It's about "I respect your feelings about this and will act accordingly".

That's pretty much at the heart of any relationship if it is at all sustainable. Everybody has their thing, and its about respecting that thing.

I think that is exactly why the OP should not tell her T. Doing so will make a simple slip up into fodder for therapy. The OP went against her Ts wishes, but in a small harmless way. Informing her T that she did so makes it a more significant issue than it is on it's own. Sometimes you just need to get something off your chest and feel compelled to make confessions when the confession doesn't always accomplish what you wanted, or it upsets the other person. I can see many Ts asking "why did you want to tell me?" or "what did you think telling me would accomplish"

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