Touch

Never mind my simplistic guess in my last post; I'm just reading this.

I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to trust a T who shifted boundaries around like this. Frankly I don't think I'd be able to continue with her because the uncertainty and pain of this would screw with everything else about the session -- which, it sounds, is what's happening to you. To trust people, we need to be able to count on them, to know what we can expect from them. By creating a situation in which you couldn't count on her response to you, and then not giving you the solid answers you deserved as to why, she destroyed trust. I'm very sorry all of this has happened.

My marriage counselor did a tightening of boundaries thing with me. Brief background for anyone who hasn't read my numerous posts about him: I developed strong transference for him, which I initially thought was erotic, then paternal, and now I'm not entirely sure which. After consulting with my T, I set up an individual session with MC to talk about it. I then wanted a second session with him, since it sort of felt like some wounds had been opened in that session (stuff about childhood, etc.), and I wanted to resolve it with him. He was reluctant, but after I left him a weepy voicemail about feeling rejected, he agreed to it. That was a great session. At the end he told me that his door would always be open to me, as in, anytime I wanted to meet with him individually, he'd be there. I found that very comforting, and that comfort lasted for a couple months. (Husband and I kept meeting with him, too.)

Until I started feeling a bit insecure about things again (really, I think it was depression was hitting me more). We had a 30-minute phone call where he assured me he'd never reject me for anything I said and that he wasn't going anywhere. Near the end of that call, I confessed that I loved him and asked if that was OK. He said it was. That call made me feel good and reassured. Then our next joint session was just...weird. I felt really vulnerable because of the I love you thing and just wanted to have the sense that things really were OK. But MC spent most of the session praising my H and how he'd handled things with me regarding the transference, etc. Then he said something about how who he is in the office is just a persona and not who he is outside the office. Which bothered me because, was his saying the reassuring things to me just a persona and not real?

So this led to another weepy voicemail, then a phonecall, where I requested another individual session with him to talk about stuff. He kept trying to shut me down, which led to me sobbing and basically begging for another session, but still he said no and seemed almost harsh about it, saying that meeting with me would just give me more reassurance and then I'd just want more. And that it was painful that I wanted it and couldn't get it, but the pain would help me grow. Which was like, what, you're intentionally causing me pain to help me grow? What happened to the open door? And of course it felt like he was backing off because I'd shared feelings with him. When I had just told him during that previous phone call that one of my fears is that sharing feelings with people will make them abandon me. This phonecall destroyed me, like I was feeling physical pain in my chest from it, as in a broken heart. (It was so bad that my H called MC and was like, "What the hell did you say to my wife?" Which he couldn't really share because of confidentiality.)

This is horribly long, so will get to the point. Next session was awkward, talked about it some but didn't give me a satisfactory explanation. Thought I felt OK, but felt bad again. Next session asked him point blank about the supposed open door. His response? "My feelings evolved on that." Which, WTF? Total copout there. I was almost ready to just bail on him. Next session asked him about it again. Then he said that back when he told me his door was always open, he realized almost immediately after I walked out the door that he shouldn't have offered that (because we're in marriage counseling with him, because I'm in individual counseling with his colleague, etc.). He said it was a mistake. And he assured me that his changing his mind happened then and not after I said I loved him. He also essentially acknowledged that he had hurt me.

His admitting to a mistake, explaining why, and acknowledging that he hurt me allowed me to forgive him and feel safe/secure with him again. I'm relating this lengthy story because those are the things that your T hasn't given you. If MC hadn't given me that, then I would have continued to be really hurt, wouldn't feel safe with him, and be tempted to walk away. So I understand.

Maybe you need to take one more chance to lay everything out to your T and say how much it destroyed you and how much it continues to affect you and you don't feel like you can move forward in your therapy until you resolve it. It took a few times with MC, and it sounds like your T just isn't getting it. As others have said, maybe you do need to talk to another T about this, too. Because even if you are attached to your T, there's still so much pain and distrust there, that it's clearly interfering with your therapy. Every time you see her and she doesn't touch you, and you don't know why, it's like the wound is being reopened.

Sorry for the superlong post.

"I appreciate those who said I have to continue to talk about it, but really, there is NOTHING left unsaid."

Actually, there is a lot left unsaid. You wish to know why -- exactly why. A good T would tell you that, and talk about this rupture until she's blue in the face if that's what was needed to help her client get through this.

I am so sorry you are in tremendous pain and conflict with this. After your last post, I am very worried about you. I hope your books give you the answers you are looking for, and will help be a catalyst in discovering the inner strength you need to deal with this. Personally, I think you need to talk to another T (in addition to current T, I'm not suggesting you drop current T in the least) about this to gain proper perspective because as GavinandNikki states, this is just too big. It's way too big to handle on your own and that's how your T left you to deal with it -- on your own. Though I may not have the answers you want and need, know that I am on your side and here to listen anytime. Sending you peace and courage!

I agree. Even a marginally good therapist would take the opportunity to dive into the feelings this has brought up for you--after they apologize--for as long as it takes to get to the root of the issue, which is not about therapy but about you and your life.

It seems that this therapist has taken it personally and gotten defensive, rather than see her harmful mistake, apologize, and help you navigate your way to the other side.

I think the reason you're having such a hard time getting over this is that you keep blaming yourself for not getting over it, rather than seeing that this is the fault of your therapist for not seeing an opening to do deeper work, for shutting you down and acting as though she knows best. All you did was make yourself vulnerable in therapy at her urging.

I hate to say it, but it just feels like an abusive relationship. You get hurt, then defend the person who mistreated you when others jump in to support you. People who do good things can also cause great harm. One does not preclude the other.

We are here for you. Talk about it as much as you want.

eta: Each therapist is going to handle things like this differently, but it should never be declared "dead" by the therapist. In my own case, my therapist has done things that hurt me. They were very small compared to your situation, but her response was to apologize (more than once), talk about it until I was done, ask me if it felt resolved, and then listen and talk whenever it popped up again. And if there was something in it that connected to a deeper issue of mine, we got to that, but only after I settled things with her.

There's one thing everyone hasn't said yet (though I agree with most everything most everyone has said,) and that is, in my opinion, this T is deliberately providing loose and shifting boundaries to keep you hooked.

The thing about being able to email and call whenever? The texting? Etc?

The things you interpret as being 'positive' about your T aren't. She shouldn't be asking you to email a lot in between sessions. I think she wants you to because she wants to be reassured that she still has you on the hook.

It's a bit like what drug dealers were accused of back in the 80's. Get someone hooked on a nice pure sample of the drug (in this case, you got uncut affection from her, physically and in other ways) and then, once you know they are craving it beyond anything, you start giving them the lesser quality stuff. You sure as heck don't admit that there is now 50% glucose powder in the cocaine, but it's there none the less.

Think about it, here you are, months on, completely unable to get over this or give it up. You might have said that you weren't dependent on affection, and she might have agreed, but a self destructive spiral upon withdrawal and being unable to bounce back for months at a time sounds like dependency, even addiction, to me.

And the thing is, she's still giving you just enough to keep you hooked.

Here's something you could try, if you were of the mind to. (This wouldn't be my first line of action, but you seem to be in a place where kicking her to the curb is not an option, so here's an experiment.) Why not try not contacting her between sessions anymore. Try focusing your work with her entirely on other matters in your life and being as stable as humanly possible. Hell, mention that you're feeling so much better with all this growth you've gotten from her, that you're thinking of setting a termination date.

If what I think is happening is happening, she will start trying to reel you back in. You will suddenly receive more affection. The hugs will become longer, her attention more focused. Maybe she will even sit next to you, just spontaneously. Your comments that you 'hear about it' if you don't email her in between sessions aren't normal. It's not normal or healthy for a therapist to create this much reliance in a client.

And, you say she has a full practice. Do you think that she has all, what 20-30 patients emailing her several times a week and texting her all day? Heck no she doesn't.

I firmly believe there is something very, very wrong going on here. And I think you are suffering for it. And I think you deserve better, but unfortunately, the thing with human affection is that it does literally act as a drug on the brain. With you being so upset and her snuggling you, you would have been releasing tonnes of oxytocin, and that is probably why the notion of leaving her is just unthinkable.

She literally made you bond to her. And now she's causing you huge amounts of pain by acting as if that bond doesn't exist. I think you're right to be hurt, I think you would be right to be very, very angry with her. And I think you need to do something besides read books and hope you feel better soon. Because what she has not only done, but continues to do, is messed up on a chemical level.

I think, on some level, you don't really want to consider just how bad what she has done and is doing really is. For my money, what she has done is about two steps shy of sleeping with you and then deciding she won't do that anymore, but you still have the privellege of paying her.

Therapists have boundaries for a reason. They don't snuggle, kiss, text and email their clients outside sessions for a reason. Therapists that do are creating a situation which has the potential to be damaging on a damn near cellular level.

I am sorry this is still happening to you, but I really don't think you can or should rely on the person who is currently hurting you to also help you. At some point, you need to find a way to move on. Even if it is, as other people have suggested, cutting your sessions with her to once a week and getting one session with someone else.

I agree with meow. Ethical therapists don't behave like this. I know it's very hard for you to hear, musing, but it's manipulative to make a client feel special and be rewarded with affection for sharing painful experiences with no apparent therapy taking place other than a need to continue because she is the only person you've shared these things with, and because she said she loved you.

It not just the offering and taking away of affection, but all the other things you've shared (talking to her daughter's therapist during your session, texting you while on the phone with another client, emailing you during her honeymoon, cancellations, etc.).

I'm sorry that this is piling on, but you deserve so much better than this. You really do.

I agree with meow and ruh roh. Something is very wrong about this whole situation. You do deserve better Lizzy. I hope someday you find a good T that is so much better.

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Lizzy, I'm sorry you are still battling these issues.

Talk about it as much as you need to....with her...or with us...or with a consulting T.

I don't feel you will feel settled or feel better leaving the situation the way it is.

I'm rooting for you!
Pre

You need to talk it out because it is a real time example of an old hurt/feeling. Keep talking to T or a new T or us but any way you need to talk it out until it doesn't hurt anymore. Toward the end with my T I got too express some hurt and finally we had a breakthrough and turned a corner to "real" therapy. I was very glad to resolve it but leaving therapy is still a better choice right now.

Thank you. I keep telling myself I need to just stop the between session contact. I mean, I see her twice a week as it is! Whenever I do, she thinks I have some sort of motive, she always questions "why didn't I hear from you?" Well, I see her tomorrow, then we have a two week break while she's on vacation. She always wants me to check in while she's gone...even last year when she was gone getting married! I don't recall if I remembered to mention.... but she also completely waived my copay, knowing money is tight, and that meant a great deal to me.

In May, I had set a termination date for two weeks later. She said "don't you dare quit quit on it now, we've almost gotten through this." Well...that was in May. Here I am, the end of July, and I'm still feeling hurt. I still can't even look at her during my session, I face away. I guess I was ready for someone to tell me I am completely overreacting, and slap me back into reality. But, maybe secretly I'm thankful you all seem to agree. Maybe I'm not off my rocker, and too oversensitive like I thought. Who knows.

I don't think at this point it really matters whether you are overreacting or not. The bottom line is, for whatever reason, your therapy is at a stalemate because of this. I guess if I was in your boat, I'd have to step back and decide if putting my therapy on hold for this and focusing on this so much--which seems like is maybe what is happening--is detrimental to my progress. Despite how much I might like my therapist, despite how well things had worked with with my therapist in the past, if it ceased to be working to my benefit and emotional safety, then perhaps it would be time to consider finding a different therapist or maybe taking a break from therapy for awhile until I could decide better how to proceed.

One thing I've learned in having worked with three different therapists long-term is that that each served my needs, just in different ways. In fact, in retrospect, those changes to different therapists worked out to my benefit. Sometime it is just time to move into a different chapter.

Is it that time for you? That's a tough question to answer, but I hope you can figure it out and find some peace soon.

Well after tomorrow's session, I will miss four sessions because of her vacation. Might be a good time to test things out.....see how I do.

A little therapy distance right now might be a good thing. Seems like you need some mental space from your T.

Big hugs!!! Wow, there is a lot going on for you right now. Therapy is such a personalized thing; and every therapist is just another human when push comes to shove. We want and need them to do things the right way the first time. It hurts us to our core when they mess up. And the sting of a therapist refusing to admit to a mistake can poison the relationship beyond repair.

Therapy has taught me a few things that maybe can help you out:

1) I finally learned I can 100% trust my therapist... ..... I can 100% trust that he is going to stick his foot in his mouth, make a stupid mistake, say the wrong thing, forget what I needed him to remember... and leave me crying at night with a broken heart.

2) I also learned that all the things in #1 applies to every single relationship I ever had and ever will have. ... with humans ;-)

3) I have learned that the benefits I receive out of therapy by allowing #1 to just be what it is and by learning how to bring up those issues as they arise, and learning how to transfer those skills to my other relationships, far out-weigh the pain I experience working through the therapy relationship.

4) Finally, I have learned that a good therapist is someone who will own their part of the relationship with honesty. A great therapist will teach you how to do the same.

I am very thankful I have a great therapist.

I don't think certain things like her frequent emails are bad. I don't think giving "extra" within limits is necessarily bad either. But I DO think that it's not good to change things and blame "boundaries" without giving a clear reason why. That is, for me, something that would be hard to get past.

I have never had a therapist who "touched" like that and I don't know if I would be comfortable with it anyway, but I would be seriously hurt by anything that was given and then taken away. That's not okay.

But I don't think you should force the termination if it makes you feel worse. I don't really know. Clearly I am not thinking the most rationally about these things.

Thanks.... you have no idea.... this changed me, I am not the same person I was in February. I've picked up old habits, increased old ones, any self worth I had is gone. I hate to blame it on my T... I was very vulnerable to self destruction anyway.... but she made me feel so dirty, undeserving, rejected, I could come up with a hundred words.....

She occasionally used the word love. But after this happened, she said she would not be using it because it's reserved for people in her private life, and it wouldn't be "genuine." That hurt. Then why did she ever use it to begin with??? Then, two weeks after she said that, she gave me a hug and told me on her own that she loved me. Broke her new "love" boundary right there. But it was ok. I savored that.

Her hugs were short and forced after our rupture, but one day, after a really good, productive session, she gave me a warm, long, healing hug. It felt great to feel like maybe part of her was "back." I Emailed her, thanking her for it. Then she wrote me that prolonged hugs aren't helpful.... WTF???? My entire childhood I was never able to show love for anything, or it was taken away. My T made me feel that way again. I told her how much I appreciated that hug, and she then said prolonged hugs aren't necessary or helpful. So now, if I appreciate something in particular, just like the old days, I keep it to myself. It could get taken away.

I'm going to take this break and try not to think too much about therapy and see how it goes. I have started to believe that therapy may not be able to help me.... I'm worse off NOW than I was when I started therapy. So I'm quite sure if I quit her, I quit therapy. I was handling things better on my own I think. She just filled a little emptiness I had...but that feeling didn't stay that way either.

This is a story that I really identify with. Only my T never admitted she never should have started the habit. My T was going through a very difficult time at home, also, and sometimes I feel that her holding me was perhaps self gratifying for herself too...perhaps she realized it, then took it away. This excerpt is from this page... https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti...ing-boundaries

Arlene is 49 and in training to become a therapist herself. She has been in therapy with Paul for three years. At the end of their first session, he asked ii she wanted a hug. After that, the hug became a regular part of each session's closing. Arlene became very attached to this ritual: "If I only see him once a week, that's one hug a week instead of two. I'm embarrassed to admit that I think about it in those terms, but I do. The hug means caring, acceptance, validation. I was raised to feel it was wrong or bad to have any needs of my own. The hug says that it's okay to give affection, it's okay to be vulnerable, I don't have to be ashamed."

Arlene's parents divorced when she was two, and she saw her father only on weekends. Arlene felt that her mother took things away from her if Arlene wanted them too much, or if they made her feel too special.

One afternoon, about a year and a half into Arlene's therapy, Paul was visibly upset when he came into the waiting room to get her for their session. She looked at him sympathetically, and he said, "I think I need a hug." Arlene was happy to oblige. "I was feeling very special and really good."

At the time, Arlene was having "all sorts of fantasies" about Paul. Some were romantic, but mostly she imagined him as a "good daddy," who embodied everything she didn't get from her own father--"openness, affection and respect." The next session, when Paul came into the waiting room to get Arlene, she rose immediately and hugged him, institutionalizing the spontaneous gesture of the prior session. She interpreted his lackluster response as tacit approval of this new ritual.

Two months after the initial breach, as Arlene rose from her chair and moved toward Paul to give him what had become their routine session-opening hug, he stopped her. "I'm not going to do this anymore," he said. "You want something from me that I don't want to give." Arlene felt the rebuff was "a slap in the face."

Paul later acknowledged that he never should have asked Arlene for a hug in the first place and should not have allowed the hugs to continue, but that now he had to put a stop to them in order to take care of himself. Arlene's hugs felt too "greedy," too "grabby," too "possessive" and that made him uncomfortable.

Arlene felt so devastated by Paul's remarks that she did not raise the subject of the hug again for many months. Once again, as in childhood, something good, something that made her feel special, had been taken away from her because she had been too greedy and let her needs show.

Paul's initial boundary breach arose out of his own need: he spontaneously used his client to comfort himself and, in doing so, failed to put his client's interests above his own. Psychologist Michael Kahn, Ph.D., author of Between Therapist and Client (W. H. Freeman, 1991), offers two other criteria for assessing the symbolic impact of a boundary shift: Is it a form of seduction, or of punishment?

Seduction need not be overtly sexual; any act that stirs some kind of desire in the client for the therapist is seductive. The client feels lured in and led to expect more than is possible, something beyond the usual therapeutic services. Punishment is anything the therapist does that hurts or damages the client in order to satisfy his own emotional needs.

When Paul terminated the opening hugs, he again justified his action on the basis of serving his own needs rather than Arlene's--her greediness was making him uncomfortable. In both initiating the hug and in putting a stop to it, then, Paul had put his own interests above his client's.

Paul's request for the hug had seductive connotations. It lured Arlene into feeling as though she were special, not like other clients, and that Paul and she had a relationship beyond the bounds of the usual client-therapist alliance. Although it made Arlene feel temporarily powerful, it did not actually increase her power in the relationship in any way To the contrary, she felt less able to predict or control what might happen next. She could not even talk about the hug for fear of losing it. So Paul erred further by allowing the crossing to become an unspoken secret between therapist and client.

If Paul had set the right therapeutic context, Arlene might have been able to use his perception that her hugs felt "greedy" to advance her understanding of herself. As the rationale for his rejection, the comment did more harm than good. In fact, the hug had such a heavy symbolic charge for Arlene that she could not help but seem greedy, especially because she expected anything good to be snatched away from her. When Paul halted the hugs, his behavior had punitive connotations: he withdrew his favors out of disapproval of Arlene's behavior.

"The message he was giving me in therapy was it's okay to feel, to be open, to give, to let yourself be vulnerable, to have needs--you don't have to feel ashamed," Arlene says. "But then when I got into a situation with him where I thought that's what I was doing, I was told that I was wrong. He kicked the needy little girl part of me around."

When a boundary shifts in therapy, the client often experiences a sense of dislocation, the ground giving way beneath her. She does not dare to question the therapist's intent because the crossing feels like a bonus. In most psychotherapy, the medium of exchange is words, rather than actions, with therapists varying even in their degree of emotional expressiveness. Touch is more primal, more visceral-and more provocative.

The clients I have interviewed reported that hugs had the potential to become a sort of extra-therapeutic reward system, like the pediatrician's lollipop at the end of a session. Along these lines, clients also reported that hugs readily took on punitive connotations since there was always a threat that they would be withheld if the client "misbehaved" during the session.

Often a boundary crossing unleashes the fantasy that deep, childlike wishes and needs are finally going to be met, that she is finally going to get what she has been waiting for all her life. The rules are gone, the sky is going to rain love.

For Arlene, Paul's hugs were magical. They came from the person who seemed symbolically capable of rectifying all the failings of her father. His hugs were gold doled out at the end of sessions, more immediate and gratifying than the therapy itself. When Paul began offering a hug at the beginning of the sessions, implying that it was as much for him as for her, Arlene felt that she could finally get what she had always wanted, and hung on for dear life. These were the issues that Arlene and Paul needed to address if they were ever to get beyond the boundary breach.

I know you say that if you quit her then you quit therapy but this is not therapy. This is making you worse and is toxic. I once thanked my T for not making me feel special. The best boundary she had was to make me like every other client. No hugs, no secrets, no texts, nothing that set me apart. I loved that because it made me safe. (well safe ish, I ended up hurt in other ways. Ugh. )

Breaking from this toxic relationship will feel intolerable. You will want to text her or email her because that need for love and reassurance is so deep and she is the only one who can give you what you need. The truth is that she isn't, and better than that you can grieve and heal from that pain to get to a place where you don't feel such a deep wound that you try to patch up with her version of "love". Her demmands for you to text or email, her hugs if you behaved well (didn't talk about removal of touch) vs her short hugs if you didn't follow orders, her giving and taking it is all a mind eff and is more about her needs than YOU the client. Unsticking from something that is damaging but has felt good and tended to some deep needs is so very tricky but is also very empowering. She may have decided what she wants to offer or not but you get to decide about whether she is a good enough T for you. Is the therapy helping? Do you see it helping in the future? If no then really wonder why you pay for this service (co pay etc) why pay someone to make you feel like crap?

Good luck.

Thank you for the excerpt from In Session. It made me understand why my T is so careful about the hand holding in my therapy. I wish I had an answer for you. More and more it seems like your T has made too many mistakes, but believe me. I know how hard it is to leave a T! Wishing you clarity and peace.

Ok, here are my $02. You need to keep talking about your desire for touch/comfort/etc. and she doesn't encourage you to do so because it is about her. As you know, I have had similar issues with my T. - wanting something they aren't willing to give.

I have learned instead of making it about my T., I need to bring it up in general. For example, since losing my mom and realizing all these unmet needs I have a deep desire for someone to be a mom to me. I want someone to comfort me, tell me I'll be ok, check on me, etc. Because of my relationship/transference with my T., most of the time I want it from her which is not possible because of her rigid boundaries. Some T's will give some of this but mine will not.

I could ask over and over "why won't you give X to me". But, it's really not about HER. I would feel this way in any relationship with an older woman. So, I'm learning to say something like "when you said you won't respond to my texts, it made me realize how much I want someone in my life to be there for me". The work would be about why I feel that way, can I get it outside therapy, etc. If I concentrate on my T., then I will be disappointed every time.

So, maybe instead of going in and saying "I'm still upset you took away touch", you need to say "when you took away touch, I felt XYZ. I think I would feel this way with anyone but I don't want to. How can I work through when you and others change boundaries so that I don't feel rejected/abandoned/unworthy?". THIS is what you need to work on - not trying to change her. yes, she screwed up but you could face this with other relationships and this is all stemming from your past. I also think your T. would be more open to this type of conversation vs getting upset at HER.

BTW - this was from adult me. Kid me would have a different response.

I agree, soccer mom. It's relevant to me too.

Excellent essay from psychology today! I think what is talked about in that essay is what many of us post about here on this board. It's something that more therapist need to understand and this essay puts it in simple, clear terms.

I also totally agree with what you posted, Soccer mom. Framing my own responses in therapy (should I return to therapy at some point) needs to be done as you describe. Ahhhhh the hoops we jump through!

In the Psychology Today article, I also found the part "To disclose or not to disclose" to be interesting and very relevant to me regarding my marriage counselor.
"How much therapists should reveal about their own lives is one of the most difficult boundary quandaries. Clients have a right to know everything that they'd ask of any health professional--where a therapist received her education, what kind of license she holds, her areas of expertise and how many years she's been practicing. But when questions cross over from professional qualifications to more personal matters, things can get tricky.
Should therapists divulge whether they are single, married for the fourth time or divorced? What about sexual orientation? Ethnic background or religious persuasion? Beliefs? Hobbies or interests? What about questions pertaining to the therapist's own mental health, and her experience as a therapy client? The extent to which a therapist discloses information depends greatly on her treatment philosophy, how she was trained and her own personality."

I know the answers (or at least some answers) to all those questions listed there about my MC. (I know answers to some from my T, but much less detail). Another section from the article:

"Personal anecdotes should be shared only occasionally and judiciously. A therapist who takes her work seriously will look to see what impact her self-disclosures have on the client, and will invite the client to talk about it. She will continually question whether spilling about herself is in the client's best interest. When a therapist's disclosures are too intimate, too frequent, too drawn out or driven, or seem particularly self-indulgent, the client needs to ask herself, "Just why is my therapist telling me this?"--and then to turn around and pose the question to the therapist."

MC probably shares at least one personal anecdote per session, sometimes more. When we first started seeing him, they were mostly about his time as a camp counselor as a teenager, and not super personal. Occasionally he'd share something about parenting his kids if we were having a parenting issue with our daughter, like to relate to us or to show he's not a perfect parent either. But as he's known us longer, he's also shared much more personal stuff, like how he wouldn't be able to treat someone like his father, how his 2nd-grade teacher said he'd always be a follower rather than leader and wouldn't amount to much (and his father didn't care), some stuff about his daughter's issues with anxiety when she was younger, occasionally something about his wife, etc.

When he had the couple individual sessions with me, he was talking about his past therapy experience in trying to deal with his father (mainly because I have some paternal transference for him, but it was still something very personal to share). Plus a story about a woman he had feelings for in grad school who he briefly got together with, then she ended up dating someone else and he told me that when she was talking to MC about the new guy, it was like they were dealing with their feelings for each other (her and MC) through that conversation. That was one where I was thinking (but didn't say), "That's a nice story, but how does this relate? Who am I in this story? Are you, um, you in this story? Is it like H and I are dealing with our feelings for each other...or...you and I are dealing with our feelings for each other?" That was also the session where he said he had the open door policy for me. (that he later realized was a mistake). That session had a very different feel to it, a more...intimate feel. I may be reading too much into it, but that may have been why he was like, "OK, I need to take a step back here."

Back to the main topic--part of why I like MC is that he's open about stuff like that, so I see him more as a person than just a T. And as a real person, with flaws and insecurities. BUT, I'm also sure that's contributed greatly to the transference and love feelings. Since there's more of a sense that I know him.

Comparing this to touch, if he suddenly stopped sharing anything about himself and became very tight-lipped about his life, past and present, I think that would be very difficult for me.

Your t has made some major mistakes for sure. But----what Soccer Mom just said up above was so good!!!! I am so going to post her words in my mind. When you do ------- I feel so peaceful. How do I get those needs met outside of therapy.

My t does give me some touch but I could use soccer mom's suggestions for so many things in my therapy. It applies so much with my obsessions with maternal women.

I agree with what y'all have written. I was angry with her at first. But I was able to change my thoughts, and instead, just calmly tell her how I felt. Not about "WHAT YOU DID!" but just about how I feel. She recognized that I feel that way, but that's about it.

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time figuring out how I feel, and why I feel that way. Part of me wants to say "what's the big deal?" The other part is being eaten alive by this....

She's urging me to disclose things to other people. Because of her actions, I'm TOO TERRIFIED to. If I disclose these things, something can/may change in the relationship. That's what happened with her. So her actions have obviously hurt, not helped me.