Confronted T about relationship - she talks about consciously frustrating the client!

I guess I am somewhat heartened but also puzzled by the T openly saying that that's what she's doing -- so, if the OP were to continue with her, how well with that technique work, now that it's out in the open? Maybe it's still supposed to?

And, of course, if she hadn't disclosed, then I believe things would've been even worse?

So, while I guess I can see that it could work in theory, I'm not sure how it could work going forward under the current circumstances?

Then again, this comes from zero knowledge or know-how about the technique in question.

There is no more T at this facility and they don´t do referalls so I´m on my own when I decide to stop going to this T.

I won´t continue with this T when knowing she uses such techniques deliberately. It would have been different if she for example felt stressed and therefore didn´t think of follow me to the door or to say goodbye in a proper manner.

But she clearly stated that she won´t do things just to please the patient and that she thinks that if she hadn´t ended the sessions like this my problems hadn´t shown.

As this is about something that doesn´t imply crossing boundaries, a good T had just adjusted her session endings a bit or asked me what would make me feel more comfortable. But she just keeps maintaining her theoretical stand.

Oh wow, SarahSweden, I'm so sorry. You have such terrible luck with Ts.

The idea that a T feels the need to purposefully frustrate a client is so incredible to me that I think I'd have to go back at least one more time to make sure I heard her right! I'd say something like, "Last time we spoke, you said something that was really surprising to me.. and I'm wondering if I heard you correctly. It sounded like you attempt to purposefully frustrate your clients, to bring out their emotions to work on them. Did I understand that correctly?"

The only reason that I say that is.. it really seems like such a crazy, outrageous, manipulative, *weird* thing for a T to do. It does not seem therapeutic at all to me, especially since we've heard over and over that the relationship is really important in therapy... and this is directly damaging to the relationship.

I'd also want to make sure that she means that she deliberately looks for ways to frustrate the client and then acts on those. To me, this is different than saying, "I have my limits/boundaries, and unfortunately, sometimes those things are frustrating to clients. I understand and empathize, but I'm not willing to change those things." So for example, if she has decided to not allow any touch, or to not answer her phone after midnight... those might be things that frustrate clients, but the point of doing them isn't to cause frustration, it's to look after her own needs. I could understand that. Then the choice becomes whether you can accept those boundaries, and if not, you need to move on.

My last therapist... at our 3rd session said to me, "What would you say if I told you that your family is f***** up?"

Later, when I thought about it... I realized that he didn't actually say my family is messed up. He asked what I would say, IF he said it. (Yes, it's convoluted, but I grew up with lots of crazy people! So I notice stuff like this!) I was a little worried that he had tricked me... gotten my response, without actually committing to his position. I thought maybe it was a test, maybe he really didn't think my family was that crazy, maybe he asks all his new clients this question just to see their response.

So, next week I brought it up and asked him. His response was so straightforward and helpful. He basically said, "I will never f**** with you." Because that's what that type of game-playing was to him.

If your T really thinks purposely frustrating you is helpful, she's wrong. It's playing a game with you, not helping.

Finally... for some of us, one of the valuable things we get from therapy is an example or model of sane, adult behavior. That's something I was getting from my T... how he handled conflicts with me gave me model for how to handle conflicts in the world. What she's doing is the opposite of that. Purposely frustrating you is not a good model for you in the world, she's not acting like a sane adult. She's kind of acting crazy!

Again, I'm so, so sorry that you're dealing with this. It's really shocking to me. I hope your able to either get some clarification from her (to see if it's possible that you misunderstood), or find some a better, more helpful and kinder T.

*hugs*

I think this is a good call. Hopefully you can find someone new soon that can be more accommodating.

I need my therapist and I to be on the same team, and this relationship sounds like it's turning adversarial really early with no sign of getting better.

A bad fit is a bad fit..

Thanks for caring. When I told her about me feeling dismissed when she hardly says goodbye and that I wonder why she sometimes follows me to the door and sometimes not she said that it´s a kind of frustration and that it brings my feelings forward and if it hadn´t happen those feelings hadn´t shown. She also told me she wouldn´t change her way of saying goodbye and she also told me she has certain ideas behind acting differently after sessions.

That to me is to me inflexible and to almost enjoy hearing the client get insecure and have the power to say "no, I won´t say goodbye in another way".

It´s for sure a way straight to loosing trust and as she told me about those obvious motives for acting like this, I could never trust such a person.

Another evidence for this is that I almost every time have felt a strange feeling of talking to someone but not getting any emotional response whatsoever. I now mean, a feeling that she cares. She never encourages anything I´ve done, as an example I struggle to go to university although I´m not feeling well.

*Hugs back*

Yes, you´re right, it´s the right word to use that it became adversarial early on. But the hard thing now is that I´m back to where I started more or less, I´ve been at this facility almost a year now and still can´t feel any significant improvement. I continue to have anxiety and to feel bad about not finding a good T to talk to, relationship issues and so on. I´m feeling hopeless.

No, I think you are all discussing this in a colloquial rather than conceptual sense.

It's not trying to 'frustrate' a person as we would think of it outside of therapy. I'd think of it or describe it as 'anti-enmeshment'.

As object relations goes, it's basically not being reactive to the client's schema.

An example of how it works-

If your schema is to be a people pleaser, the therapist doesn't react to your attempts to take care of her needs. If your schema is to try to control your environment/others to feel better, the therapist doesn't yield to that either. That's what helps you develop the capacity to adapt to the world rather than the other way around.

A lot of people don't even realize their schemas, and there can be many subtleties as well, so it really puts your patterns under a spotlight. Not enmeshing allows you to find your true self and develop your own identity, rather than the sense of self you developed as a result of not getting your needs met as a child. It's comes from a child developmental angle, which results in fostering of growth.

It's actually a transformational type of therapy for those who want to do it. Not in the behavioral sense as some therapies, but a new sense of self sense. I think a competent therapist wouldn't use it all the time, or use it in ways that are not helpful such as being totally inflexible. As far as the note taking goes, that is sometimes temporarily done by therapists only when doing initial assessments. I didn't know she was going to do this 100% of the time.

After doing that type of therapy, it's so easy to see what comes from another person and what comes from yourself, so it solidifies your boundaries. Psychoanalysts typically do this type of therapy in training, which is one reason they seem to be better at not getting enmeshed with patients.

I think to tolerate it, it helps to experience it as a sort of 'play space' if you are of the creative or imaginative type. Like a complete exposure of your inner world outside looking in. It can be quite fascinating, actually.

I think there are very good ideas in the object relations theory but they can´t be acted out without a good relationship present. I think there are very few people who want to come to session after session feeling more or less no emotional connection, no warmth and no encouragement. That´s how it is for me in my therapy.

If she just aims for not meeting my needs, I won´t feel she´s trustworthy and by that there is no therapy. I will just be like meeting someone who produces therapy, not a human being.

Well I don't particularly care for any kind of relationship with t and am not attached or enmeshed at all BUT she always greats me same way always says good bye in a same manner and is always encouraging in the same type of style. I don't need to guess how she is going to act as she is always the same!!!! I'd hate her to be cold and hot. That would not work for me at all. I like consistency

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I'm really insecure and I worry all the time that I'm not worth liking or caring about, so I guess she would act the same way with me. I would have quit by now. My feelings of being worthless and feeling like I don't matter are way too strong to handle this kind of "challenge." I'd honestly wonder if she was making all that up just to justify her weird behavior.

This kind of "challenge" seems almost dangerous depending on the nature of the clientele. I think to be able to handle this you can't be fragile.

I see.
Too bad, it really can be a super therapy for your type of issues.

Like here, you're letting others sort of define yourself, your world. It can be empowering to stop doing that to yourself.

Hope you find someone who can help you.

Yes, like you I begin to wonder if there are too many signs of that something isn´t right. In this therapy it´s more stuff than just the ending session thing and if I realise I´m being challenged by some "methods" instead of being met with honesty that just makes me ignore such a person, my T in this case.

I think she was honest when she told me about her reason for acting in different ways after each session and that she sees challenges as part of therapy. I think challenges should be present or else there will be no change but not in a way that challenges are so prominent that no solid relationship can be created.

Yes, perhaps it could if we had built a strong and trustful relationship first.

Note: SarahSweden, this post isn't at all a comment on your therapy situation -- I just wanted to add a quick note since ex_vivo's post really spoke to my experience.

I felt like I was at loggerheads with my therapist for at least the first 3-4 months (of weekly sessions). She is not at all warm / fuzzy but she's also not inflexible like OP has described her therapist to be.

Somehow, nothing of what I'd tried in the 'real' world was 'working' as I thought it should in therapy.

I think she "diagnosed" my mother as having BPD rather early on (but told me about it only many months later) and so, she often tried to get me to see this wild flip-flop -- between complete enmeshment and cold distance -- that I both experienced as a kid and that I've sort of sought to recreate as an adult in other relationships.

So, the people-pleaser part (that ex_vivo points to) was / is me in spades. I can recount a bunch of specific instances when I tried to do the same in therapy only to be well....shot down in flames by my therapist, without any gentleness whatsoever and also asked to see in real time as to how this related to my childhood. There's no other way to put it -- it was a.w.f.u.l.

But, after stewing over it (both by myself and when I couldn't deal with it any more, in session), I'm realizing that she more than had a point.

And, so now after just under a year of therapy, I am getting to see the point that ex_vivo made above -- the bit about recognizing boundaries between myself and others. It's come to such sharp relief in therapy over and over and over again and thrown this really cold, harsh light on my behaviors and feelings that there's been no escape at all from it. More often than not, I want to curl up in a fetal ball and cry post therapy.

And, with it, I'm losing this old sense of enmeshed self and now finding myself adrift or like everything inside me is falling apart -- it's been a direct result of therapy and it's frightening as heck coz I somehow have to trust my therapist around who I mostly feel at best, a wary trust along with a massive sense of discomfort since none of my usual tactics work on her.

ETA: I forgot to add (possibly the most important part!), I do feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel (and it's not an oncoming train!) but I just don't know what it'll (or I will) look like at the end of it.

Thanks for sharing, awkwardlyyours.

Your old sense of self crumbles, you're left with feelings of emptiness, lack of purpose, so you need to develop a new one-that is growth. It's like child development.

But that's the thing. A therapist needs to know how to help build you back up. I don't think people in your situation can do this on their own. I am in the same boat at this point. I hope it gets better.