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#1
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Background: I didn't e-mail my T much in the first 2 years or so that I saw her. Then I started e-mailing sometimes, which she was OK with, then usually e-mailing her once or twice a week, after my session with her (to share additional thoughts/insights I had) and/or marriage counselor (to update her on what happened in there). For quite a while, she was saying she was fine with me e-mailing, as long as I didn't expect a response, though she said she always read them. She said she understood that I used e-mailing to process things, that she had another client who did the same. I would check in with her every now and then, just to make sure the e-mailing was OK. There were occasional texts, too, and some phone calls during a period when I was in crisis earlier this year.
So 3-4 months ago, she seemed to keep either not getting or not having a chance to read my e-mails before session. She still confirmed that e-mailing was fine. A couple months ago, she had responded to a couple in a row (unusual for her), then I sent a series of e-mails one afternoon because I'd felt weird about our session earlier that day, plus I was worried about something going on with my marriage counselor (her coworker). And maybe there was something in my personal life too. But I'd assumed she'd respond, and she didn't. So I asked her about it at a future session, and she said she didn't know that e-mail was helpful to me anymore. That she thought maybe it was about reassurance (even though she often didn't respond), that I should try typing stuff up, not sending it, then just picking the most important parts to share in therapy. Since then, I was trying not to e-mail her. But I found typing stuff up on my own wasn't the same, that I needed to share it with someone (posting here helps). I felt more distant from her. So I sent her a long e-mail about that before leaving for vacation about a week ago. We talked about it in session some yesterday, and she was talking more about the reassurance thing, and also mentioned how my e-mails kept getting longer and that it could take her some time to read and think about them. (Not that this is relevant, but she only works 3 days/week). I sent her a brief e-mail last night updating her on an idea that my marriage counselor had on dealing with the e-mailing (I saw him yesterday too). Then, shortly before I went to be, I sent her another brief e-mail because what she'd said about the time had been gnawing at me. Here's that exchange: "Me: Hi, T. OK, so what's really bothering me is what you said today about the length of my e-mails and the time it takes to read them. I feel like, if this was really just about what's best for me, you wouldn't have brought that up. Is it really more about time (and possibly money)? Because if it is, then please just be straightforward with me. Thanks, LT. T: I've just read this. It is not about money and it is about your expectations of your therapist (me) with regard to time. It is about you and your efforts to grow and individuate and feel good about yourself and the choices you make. That's my honest response to your questions. T" I was pretty upset by this--since it is partly about my expectations of her. And she was fine was those expectations up to a few months ago--or at least claimed she was. (And I guess it's about dependency too.) Would you be upset by this, too? Based on how things have been the past few months, I'm wondering if I either need a different T or to at least take a break from her for a bit. (I'm fully aware that many T's don't allow outside contact, but it would be different to be that way from the start and have that be the expectation than to have the rules/boundaries shifting for no clear reason, at least from my end.) To clarify, with the exception of the week in January when I was in crisis, it's not like I was contacting her daily, or even close to that. Once, maybe twice a week, aside from a few instances here and there when I was really struggling. And not generally expecting a reply (but at least for her to have read it), unless I asked for one or was clearly upset. |
![]() 1stepatatime, ABeautifulLie, AllHeart, Anonymous37872, Bipolar Warrior, Cinnamon_Stick, Myrto, Out There, PinkFlamingo99, rainbow8, ruh roh, runlola72, Sarmas, SoConfused623
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#2
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Hi Lonesome
I would be hurt by this. Bringing it back to the analogy that keeps coming back to me - therapeutic boundaries are like an invisible electric fence; you don't know where they are but it hurts like hell when you step on them. The reality is that your therapist owns all the responsibility for ensuring boundaries are explicitly explained and that communication with the client is effective. I feel like that's really what has gone wrong here. Her communication has been ineffective and she has let this go on with ambiguity and inconsistency. No wonder you are confused and frustrated. For me, resolution to this would involve making sure the therapist understood that her lack of clear communication regarding boundaries and inconsistency had hurt me (and the therapist would have to own this mistake) and I would also ask for a very clear conversation on what is and isn't acceptable to her regarding email. If what she is offering as a therapist in terms of outside contact didn't meet my needs, or if she didn't own her mistakes, I would have to leave, but if those things were okay I would see it as potentially resolvable. You might have different thoughts on this, so that's just an idea of how I would go forward. I'm a big believer in trusting your gut. And also, no decision is irreversible, so you could try out others and go back to original T if you choose. I hope things get resolved soon in a way that works for you ![]() |
![]() 1stepatatime, awkwardlyyours, Ellahmae, LonesomeTonight, Out There, PinkFlamingo99, Waterbear
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#3
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I am sorry you are struggling with this misattunement right now lonesome.
I get that there is something going on for your t around the emails and that she feels they are a need for reassurance and you feel that this is not the case. You email because it helps you to process and that often you have said you don't need a response. Did you get a chance to ask your t why she feels your emails are needing reassurance. This is what she is interpreting from them bug how is she getting that, maybe she is a little burnt out and instead of saying I am finding it hard to find the time to read your emails right now lonesome she is projecting the blame onto you by saying they are looking for reassurance. I would be really upset by this too and would probably come to the same conclusion you did, that this was more about paying for her time rather than her interpretation of what you were needing. I get her encouraging you to make your own choices and to grow and individuate but that will happen naturally when you don't need her support anymore. Perhaps this is about needing her support and she is not recognising that you are attached and part of being attached is seeking reassurance and support from the person we are attached and connected to. There is nothing wrong with this, it's natural and expected in relationships, especially the therapeutic one but perhaps she can't or won't give you this and that is a problem for her, why can't she give you a little support or reassurance, even just to quickly glance over the email before your sessions. I would feel shamed by this. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
![]() 1stepatatime, LonesomeTonight, Out There
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#4
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I don't want to be harsh, but I'm not actually surprised she thinks your emails are about reassurance. Think of it from her perspective: if you send several in one afternoon because you're upset about a few things, and then you send one asking if it's really about time or money...those are emails that could be interpreted as asking for reassurance.
I don't think either of you are at fault here. She still lets you email and occasionally replies, right? You know a response might not come. So basically I don't think she has changed her boundaries, she's just discouraging email - she hasn't forbidden it and you still know that she might not respond - she's saying it might be time to move on (which is also part of her job). The two of you should come to some email agreement instead of dancing this dance, though, and that's her job. (FWIW, I don't think long-term emailing would work in therapy. No. 3 and I exchanged lengthy emails for about a month between my leaving her in-person and starting up again with No. 2, but I don't think it would have worked long-term - too draining for her, too much risk of dependency for me.) As for what she said, I see why it's hurtful, but I would also appreciate her directness and honesty. She's making it clear it's not about her, it's about you - not in the sense that you've violated boundaries or done something wrong, but that you might be kind of stuck in therapy. Maybe the solution is to move on from her. She may have taken you as far as you can go together. |
![]() LonesomeTonight, Rive., ruh roh, unaluna
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#5
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Hi Lonesome. I think Echo's has some very good advice there and I don't really have anything extra to add except for to give you my kind thoughts and my hugs.
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![]() LonesomeTonight
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#6
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Quote:
Part of what's difficult is that she seems to act like "reassurance" is a dirty word. Whereas my marriage counselor says that wanting reassurance is completely normal and natural. That the ideal is for me to be able to reassure myself, but there's nothing wrong with having that want/need. And I also e-mail/text him at times, and those generally are more often for reassurance than just passing along info. (Sometimes I'll even say, "Yes, I know this is me looking for reassurance" or "looking for a connection" or something.) In our session yesterday, he was saying that if I feel I NEED reassurance, that might mean I should try not to reach out for it, I think because it implies that I can't handle things on my own, and he says I can. But if I WANT it, then it 's OK. (It made more sense when he said it!) Quote:
Quote:
It's like things have felt unsettled with her since then. Like I'm not as open. I'm not like, "Oh, I want to talk to T about this thought I had." So maybe she's achieving her goal of my becoming more independent from her, though not in the most ideal way. I feel like I still have work to do in therapy though, and as much as MC is helping me individually within the confines of marriage counseling (H is cool with this), it would probably help me to have my own T. So maybe I should continue my search for someone else (I have a whole bunch of them bookmarked from a few months ago when I was ready to leave!) Or I could try taking a break and seeing how it feels. Thanks for the response--it helps to get other perspectives, which is why I posted here. |
![]() PinkFlamingo99, Sarmas, unaluna
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![]() PinkFlamingo99
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#7
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I think this is one of the hardest parts of therapy - to say this is not what i want or how i need it at this time. And if the t can move with you, then maybe you can stay. But otherwise, maybe you need to feel the courage of your convictions. Im doing this right now in changing my schedule with my wonderful t. You know, we WANT things to be all quiet and lovely and unchanged, but then, we also want what WE want.
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![]() awkwardlyyours, LonesomeTonight, ruh roh
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#8
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I wonder if your feelings for MC are amplified because ft t seems to be pushing you away. I can relate needing t sometimes during the week and most seem to have similar resistance to it. I wish I knew the answer
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![]() LonesomeTonight, ruh roh
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#9
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It looks like you've done whatever you can to resolve this -- E.g. you felt it was about the time issue and you made yourself vulnerable enough to bring it up with her (rather than let it build up into silent resentment) and she dismissed it.
I think the way I see it, it's not so much the details of what happened and why and when but rather your T's general attitude -- is she open to copping to her own stuff? Or not? Is she at least willing to examine openly that it *might* be her stuff when you bring it up? Or not? If the answer is that she isn't consistently willing to go there with you -- to actually be in that relationship in a meaningful way, which would include at least acknowledging (if not discussing) her own stuff -- maybe you need a different T? Also, I believe this is sort of Therapy 101 -- at least a couple of the potential new Ts I checked out told me this -- but if you are actually feeling contained and 'held' in session, you won't feel the need as much to seek her out after the session. So, if you're seeking her out a fair amount outside of sessions, it seems to point to something not quite working *in session*. And yes, everyone has different levels of need for this sort of stuff but this is supposed to still hold true at a general level. I then have to wonder if she has at all addressed this stuff with you i.e., what is going on "in session" that is or is not meeting your emotional needs? Perhaps consider interviewing other Ts while continuing with this one? |
![]() atisketatasket, LonesomeTonight, ruh roh
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#10
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Didn't she also once say to you something like "I know you want me to validate you right now, but I won't"? Is she a tough-love kind of person?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#11
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I am all over the map on this one, LT, but first and foremost I am in your corner.
On one hand, yes, the whole bit about using assurance as a dirty word is very shaming. No matter how clinical she may be in her reasoning, it's just basically sucky treatment on a human level. A long time ago, I used to support people with significant intellectual/developmental disabilities and almost 100% of the time all their "behaviors" were a result of not being treated with kindness and respect. One staff person actually told me, when I was supervising at a new location, that "so and so acts up for attention." And I said, "Great! Let's give him the attention he needs." Like, wtf is wrong with people? End of rant. Okay, so after being upset over that, the overall issue of the emails seems to be an interpretation of your therapist's rules or boundaries or whatever. To me, what she has done looks very consistent. She has a firm idea for how to do therapy and it's not the shooting from the hip kind (something I like about your MC, and I think you do too). So when you send an email, she is going to take more time to think about your email in some kind of complicated therapy way, rather than oh hey, LT wants to know she matters to me, or that I'm here for her, or that she's doing well, or things will be okay, or whatever it is that will help you settle something. I don't read her comment about taking time as something that = money. I read it literally, that she is someone who is going to turn a simple request into a tortuous examination and she doesn't have the time to respond in the way she, herself, needs to respond. It's like some people will take for effing ever to make a decision about where to eat, like they trying to deliberate a challenge to the Constitution. Maybe your therapist is not that extreme, but I do wonder if a lot of this is about who she is as a person. Maybe when she unwraps a present, she picks at the edges of the tape and tries to make sure the paper can be reused, while your MC tosses the present in the air makes and makes a game out of how fast he can rip it open when it lands. Just, two very different approaches. I don't get the sense that your therapist's approach is working for you (it would not for me), but if there is something there that you like and benefit from, it might be worth figuring out another way to see her comment about the time element. I happen to believe she means it when she says she has your interest in mind. She just has a methodology that's laborious. (My take, anyway.) The issue of reassurance is a different deal. I don't think there's any misunderstanding that. She doesn't see it as her role or as a therapeutic technique. Others do (like your MC). |
![]() chihirochild, growlycat, kecanoe, LonesomeTonight
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#12
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My T never gave me his email or texts. Maybe that was for the best. I could call if I needed him and he even gave me his home #. I only used that twice maybe 3 times in 2 years. I did write thoughts down for our sessions. I had journals. I was left to process on my own, and although it was difficult at times it helped me learn to reach out when I really needed it and to not become dependent on him for my well being. Had I had his email I think I may have overused it also. Please try to not take your T's boundaries on emailing as an insult. Maybe She is trying to get you to have faith in yourself and practice what you have learned in therapy.
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![]() LonesomeTonight
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#13
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I am kind of tied up tonight but I just wanted to say that my T and I had similar issues with email and texts. What resolved it was when I explained that I didn't NEED a detailed response to the ideas. I needed to know she heard me and cared about me. That's all. That solved things. That's what I get when I get a reply. "I hear you. I see this is important. You should think about it over the next few days, and I can't wait to see you again"
That's really all I need. And its something she is able to give, where as she takes talking about my therapy over email very very seriously and it takes her a LOT of time to compose an answer. More time than she had to give with her other responsibilities. |
![]() LonesomeTonight
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#14
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I don't have time for a long comment now but your email situation sounds a lot like mine. My T did not take it away, but after 6 years she is discouraging it because "our work" together,"--her words of course, is to enable me to not need her for reassurance and comfort.
Your T telling you she's not your mother or friend ( I forgot if you said both of those) and your hurt reaction is similar to my situation. I haven't emailed my T for about 4 weeks now, and it hurts, but I think it's a breakthrough for my growth. After all my protests, T is right after all. She is not the answer. She's never going to be my friend, my mother, or my partner. Yes, she shattered my dreams, but now I can move on and use her as a T is supposed to be. I think my experience is relevant to yours. I know it's difficult. Emailing is a blessing and a curse! |
![]() LonesomeTonight
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![]() LonesomeTonight, Waterbear
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#15
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Like others I think she's being fairly consistent, I'm not sure I read her saying you're looking for reassurance as a "dirty word" so much as her saying it how she sees it - by that I mean I don't see judgement in what she's saying. It is her job to not foster dependence and it sounds like over the time you've emailed more (you said you'd emailed a few times over an afternoon or after her session and your session with MC, but I may be picking you up wrongly).
Part of me wonders what it means to you to send it to her. If it's about processing your thoughts, typing or writing up in a journal to bring would give you the head space part of that, but I'm wondering if there's something about sending it away from you that is helpful. Knowing what it gives you might help you understand whether there's another way to have that need met. If your emails are getting longer it will take her more time to read - regardless of how detailed a read she gives it or whether she is a bit of a pondered, she'll hopefully want to respect what you've written. That means the amount of time she has available for other things lessens, I get that it's not about money for her, but it may well be about the time she has available to give to any one client. Given that she works 3 days, it's entirely possible she has other work, or other family responsibilities that need her time, meaning she just doesn't have it to give - paid or not. I honestly read it as her having reached the limit of what she can offer a client - that isn't about you being too needy, or that your needs are wrong but they may just not be able to be met in therapy with her. Do you tend to discuss what you've written in email at next session or is it just left as being sent to her? |
![]() Myrto
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![]() LonesomeTonight
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#16
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Quote:
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![]() LonesomeTonight
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![]() LonesomeTonight
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#17
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They don't seem to get how important it is to have a clear understanding of what's okay.
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![]() atisketatasket, kecanoe, LonesomeTonight, Sarmas
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#18
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I think breaks are a good idea. I have always found them useful.
I also find going to see different therapists from time to time to be useful. For me, I would want to find one who did not know the other therapist and would not talk to them about each other.
__________________
Please NO @ Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. Oscar Wilde Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. |
![]() LonesomeTonight, Sarmas
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#19
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You're absolutely right and they don't get how it affects clients. I know my T told me that she was inspired to become a T due to her experience when she was going to therapy. She said that her negative experience inspired her to become a therapist and help others. I think she might need to reassess that and see where she's going wrong.
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![]() LonesomeTonight, PinkFlamingo99
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#20
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I feel glad I'm treated in the outpatient dept of the hospital npw. They have really strict rules about communication outside of work hours, and they're hospital-wide so I don't have to feel rejected.
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![]() kecanoe, LonesomeTonight
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#21
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Honestly, my attachment to him has been more intense than to T for quite a long time now. Some of it being transference, some of it just feeling like he "gets" me more. I feel like I've had many more insights with him in the past 6 months or so than with T... Where he'll say something like, "Could it maybe be because of x?" and I'm like, "uh...well...yeah!"
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#22
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Quote:
![]() The thing is, T seemed to back away from the tough love stuff for a while there. It was like the softer version of T. Where she teared up sometimes when I was talking to her. Touched my arm when I left. Was actually letting me see the caring. And I liked that. Felt more connected to her. But now it's like she's shifted back to the more tough love stance. And since I've seen how she could be, it's hard to go back...Of course, she'd probably deny that she was any different. Or say she got too close and had to step back (she said something similar earlier this year). |
#23
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Thanks for all the responses--will respond to more when I get a chance!
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#24
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Cross-posting with In Session Today... thread (hope that's OK! This one is edited a bit.) Just thought I'd post here, too, to update, since some people don't read that one:
I went into my session with T today intending to tell her I wanted a break (maybe to try out another T, maybe just to step back for a bit). I figured she'd have some sense that I was unhappy again because of an e-mail exchange we'd had. When she came out to get me, she was smiling and seemed happy to see me. I was like, Oh, damn. Then before I even sat down, she was like, "So how was [my daughter's] first week of kindergarten? I was thinking about her and you and wondering how she was doing." I answered that she'd done well, then my eyes started welling up because it was like, ugh, now she's being all outwardly caring like she was before I started feeling disconnected a few months ago. And seeming genuine, too. And mentioning how she was thinking about me outside the session. She noticed I was starting to cry and said, "OK, what's up?" I said that I thought maybe I wanted to take a break for a bit. That I wasn't sure if it was working with her right now. That maybe she wasn't the right fit for me at this point. She looked sad. She said it was possible I was right about the fit and asked if I wanted to discuss it more. She asked if it was just about the e-mail issue I said it wasn't just that--I was just looking for reasons that things had seemed different, and that was one change. I tried to explain about how I'd felt really connected to her for a period there, and she'd been seeming more open about her caring. But that it felt like that had changed, that she'd pulled back, which made me pull back, so now I didn't feel like I trusted her as much and wasn't sharing some things. By this point, I'm full on crying, like her tissue box was almost empty, so she went to get me more. We talked about my recent e-mail to her about something she'd said last session regarding my e-mails taking up too much time. She said she was bothered that I mentioned the money thing, because of course it wasn't about money. I said that honestly, I had thrown that in because I knew it would bother her. She said she could tell from my e-mail that I'd been mad at her. She told me how she'd asked in their weekly clinical meeting (with all the other T's and p-docs in the practice) what their e-mail policies were, and she said many of them didn't allow e-mail at all or wouldn't respond if someone wrote to them. Apparently, my marriage counselor isn't one of those, since he's OK with my e-mailing/texting and will respond more often than not (I assume he knew she was talking about me in meeting, because I've talked to him recently about some of my concerns with her). In a way, it felt good that she'd asked other T's about the situation. But this other part of me felt like it was a "See, they wouldn't deal with your e-mails either!" sort of thing. Talked a little about my wanting reassurance at times, and how it felt like she was saying that was a bad thing, a weakness in me. And how my e-mails to her weren't often about that (this is from a past conversation with her). That led to me saying that it sometimes felt like she was saying certain things I feel or do were signs of weakness or of something being wrong with me, like in terms of mental illness and/or just in general. When really what I want is to feel normal, like my feelings are natural (which is more what I get from MC, which I didn't mention at the time to T). This seemed to affect her and make her a bit sad. I said sometimes it was just about validation, which is different. She said that she's generally good at reading what her clients want/need, but she often has trouble with me. That she will think she should take a certain approach with me, but then it will end up being the wrong one. (She's been in practice like 30-some years, too.) I said that I often didn't know what I needed until I either got it or didn't. But that when I did know, I'd try to do better about telling her, if that was OK. (Like, "I'm telling you about this one thing, but all I want right now is for you to listen and maybe validate me." Which is something I've started doing with H at times, too, because he also often doesn't know what I want.) Talked a bit about how this could be maternal transference, too, stemming from her comment a couple months ago about "I can't be your mother or your friend," which I said was still bouncing around in my head and bothering me. She said today that maybe I was looking to her for what I didn't get from my mother. I said I wasn't sure it was totally that, how some of it was negative maternal transference, that I expected her to react certain ways because my mom would (so maybe I would be reluctant to tell her some things). I said how MC had said it can be beneficial to work through transference (as I have to some extent with him), but I didn't know how she'd feel about that since it wasn't as much in her methodology. She seemed open to it and thought it could help. I asked her thoughts on whether it might help to take a break, and she said she wanted to leave that up to me. That she agreed with what MC had said before, how working through this conflict with her (not just the transference stuff) could be beneficial to me, especially because it's a safe place to do so. I asked if she wanted to share other thoughts. She said she'd share her emotional reaction to what I'd said. That she was sad that I was feeling this way and also that some stuff she'd said had made me feel bad. Though earlier in the session, I had said that I knew the feelings were on me, like stuff from my past making me interpret things in a certain way. That I knew she probably didn't intend to be hurtful or make me feel bad. But she said she had to take some responsibility too, which made me feel better (she'd seemed more defensive lately). I forget what else she said about her feelings, but "sad" stood out for me. It was weird, there were bits of stuff we'd normally talk about in a session mixed in here and there. Like I'd mention something, then start off on a tangent, and she'd ask me how something was going with that. So it wasn't all just talk about our relationship. I think stuff like that made me realize it might be a mistake to leave right now. At the end, she asked me what I wanted to do, and I said I'd like to try for a bit more with her. So we made an appointment for next week. She held her arms out for a hug at the end, and gave me a fairly warm one (hugs are rare from her). So that was nice. I feel OK about my decision to keep trying with her. Part of me feels like I caved because she seemed very caring again, but I think part of me also realized that I have this history with her, that she knows about so many things in my life, past and present. So there are benefits there, even if she doesn't always know how to handle me. And she seemed willing to admit mistakes she's made, that she wasn't always sure she was doing the right thing with me, and was open to me guiding her more in the future. So...we'll see. Hope I did the right thing... |
![]() Anonymous37925
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![]() rainbow8
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#25
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I responded in the other thread but I'll paste it here in case you don't see it:
Sounds like you had a really honest conversation with your T there LT. However things work out you can be proud you voiced your feelings and were heard. That took courage. I see some positives in what she said (in terms of taking some responsibility especially) and I hope you can build on that together. Perhaps this was the wake up call she needed, or even that the relationship needed. I hope it works out well ![]() |
![]() LonesomeTonight
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![]() kecanoe, LonesomeTonight
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