An example or model of a person, thing, or idea, often grossly oversimplified, as in the case of a stereotype. Often found in folklore or fairy tales. Swiss psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung used archetypes to analyze the personalities of his patients.

Example: Many popular fairy tales involve a struggle between a charming, beautiful heroine and her wicked stepmother

Just wondering who is familiar with this and has done any work with or looked into it. I have found that the concept of the Archetype(s) has been something I keep stumbling across again and again.

I have several specific Archetypes that can describe my personality and the common themes ocurring throughout my life.

[Ididitmyway]

I am certainly familiar with the idea of archetyeps and its use in psychotherapy, specifically in Jungian analysis since its a Jungian concept.

I find the idea fascinating, but to me the fascination is mostly about the idea in theory. I've never used archetypes to work on myself and I've never used them in my practice, so I can't speak of their practical effectiveness.

My apologies to all the Jung lovers, but for me the entire Jungian psychology is fascinating only as a spiritual theory but it doesn't have much of a practical value. Besides, having studied many esoteric theories and schools of thought on my own I could see that Jungian analysis is basically a stew where all those ancient teachings were used as ingredients, and I prefer to go for the pure, original substance. As anything esoteric, Jungian concepts give me a bigger vision and, in that sense, they help me maintain a sense of my life purpose. Beyond that they are useless to me, they don't help to deal with my everyday earthly struggles.

Again, this is just my own experience. There might be people who find archetypes helpful on a practical level. We are all different and our needs are different..

I teach archetypal approaches as a critical approach to literature all the time. I've never applied to my therapy or life. Seems a bit overly-simplified but I've never really studied it from the psychological viewpoint.

I first stumbled upon the whole concept reading, Women Who Run With The Wolves, Clarissa Pinkola Estes. The book was a life changer. I have since re-read it a few times, something else calling out to me at whatever stage I am in in life. I have encountered the idea again and again. As a follower of Earth based spirituality it has repeatedly come up in books and learning. Obviously there are numerous 'faces' of the Archetypes but they basically fit the molds of a more standard dozen or so.

I am familiar with it but find other, more complex "esoteric" theories more illuminating and useful. My favorite in the past was the Enneagram.

[thesnowqueen]

My user name came from an old T who once asked me what fairytale resonated the most with me. There are some aspects of my life that intersect with the story and I guess one could read it as she did - about Gerda's journey to find Kay being a quest to find myself or something of the sort... Also, not sure of any real/helpful implications.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by justafriend306

I first stumbled upon the whole concept reading, Women Who Run With The Wolves, Clarissa Pinkola Estes.

Oh, that's an interesting coincidence for me - a friend of mine put on an audiobook of hers, Warming the Stone Child, when we were in her car the other day. I started out extremely sceptical but she won me over in the end! I hope I get to listen to the rest of it at some point. I shall definitely look up Women Who Run With The Wolves.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

My user name came from an old T who once asked me what fairytale resonated the most with me. There are some aspects of my life that intersect with the story and I guess one could read it as she did - about Gerda's journey to find Kay being a quest to find myself or something of the sort... Also, not sure of any real/helpful implications.

Same here. "The Snow Queen" touches some very deep layers in me as well. I find the same parallels with Gerda's journey. I just wonder why you didn't pick the username Gerda then. SnowQueen seems to be just the opposite of her..?? You don't have to answer if it's too personal.

[*Laurie*]

I'm quite familiar with the archetypes, and with Jungian psychology. It's entertaining and interesting, and educational, kind of a game to play, but I've never been quite sure how the archetypes apply to healing mental health issues. Maybe more helpful for emotional issues.

I did find the enneagram somewhat helpful.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Same here. "The Snow Queen" touches some very deep layers in me as well. I find the same parallels with Gerda's journey. I just wonder why you didn't pick the username Gerda then. SnowQueen seems to be just the opposite of her..?? You don't have to answer if it's too personal.

I guess the easy answer would be that 'the snow queen' refers to the story as a whole and not just the particular character. But I guess it goes further than that as I think my fundamental issues flow from someone who I do identify as the 'snow queen' and who thus sets off the entire Gerda-Kay complex? Someone with a narcissistic personality...

Perhaps most importantly, I actually identify more with Kay than with Gerda. It is Kay who gets the splinter of glass/ice in his eye and in his heart. It is Kay who is seduced by the Snow Queen's finery and finally it is Kay who ends up numb and paralyzed in an ice palace, trying to complete an impossible puzzle. I think Gerda is a hard act to follow! She is plucky, resourceful, and devoted. Plants, animals and other people are attracted to her and come to her aid. Even supernatural agents are on her side! Perhaps there is an element of Gerda in me - a part that is compassionate and devoted. However, the compassion is not for Kay and neither is the devotion because most of the time Kay just doesn't seem worth it...

Sometimes I manage to drum up a feeling of 'unconditional love' for Kay-part, but it's far easier for me to loathe it. Which I guess is an internalized Snow queen?

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I guess the easy answer would be that 'the snow queen' refers to the story as a whole and not just the particular character. But I guess it goes further than that as I think my fundamental issues flow from someone who I do identify as the 'snow queen' and who thus sets off the entire Gerda-Kay complex? Someone with a narcissistic personality...

Perhaps most importantly, I actually identify more with Kay than with Gerda. It is Kay who gets the splinter of glass/ice in his eye and in his heart. It is Kay who is seduced by the Snow Queen's finery and finally it is Kay who ends up numb and paralyzed in an ice palace, trying to complete an impossible puzzle. I think Gerda is a hard act to follow! She is plucky, resourceful, and devoted. Plants, animals and other people are attracted to her and come to her aid. Even supernatural agents are on her side! Perhaps there is an element of Gerda in me - a part that is compassionate and devoted. However, the compassion is not for Kay and neither is the devotion because most of the time Kay just doesn't seem worth it...

Sometimes I manage to drum up a feeling of 'unconditional love' for Kay-part, but it's far easier for me to loathe it. Which I guess is an internalized Snow queen?

Interesting. All this resonates with me so much..Not because I identify more with Kay, but because Kay-type men were kind of a theme of my life, frozen inside, unable to experience joy and to genuinely connect. Some of them had been definitely raised and seduced by their narcissistic mothers "the show queens". I know their personal histories, that's how I know. I most certainly was Gerda who was trying to save them from themselves Not anymore thank God. I am not on a rescue mission any longer (I am not talking about clients when I say Kay-men were a theme of my life. Those men were figures of major significance in my personal life)

By the way, the reason why I stopped rescuing them was because I realized they weren't worth it, and, mostly, because I understood that we can't rescue anyone. We can't even help anyone who isn't willing to help themselves.

Now I am using my Gerda-like qualities (strength, resourcefulness etc) to facilitate my own growth and I am quite happy about that.

Andersen is great. I don't understand how psychoanalysts aren't all over his fairy tales. To me they seem to shed a direct light on our unconscious conflicts, much more so than Grimm brothers and others who were analyzed a lot.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

I
By the way, the reason why I stopped rescuing them was because I realized they weren't worth it, and, mostly, because I understood that we can't rescue anyone. We can't even help anyone who isn't willing to help themselves. .

Since it's more of an intra-psychic drama for me, the way to health (for me) is diametrically opposed to this. It might mean caring about Kay more than every other hurt man or beast along the way. Of course there are multiple ways of reading it...

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

Andersen is great. I don't understand how psychoanalysts aren't all over his fairy tales. To me they seem to shed a direct light on our unconscious conflicts, much more so than Grimm brothers and others who were analyzed a lot.

I think the Grimm Brothers might be more examined because they didn't invent their tales but adapted them from pre-existing legends which helps bolster the idea of archetypal and perennial narratives - stories with primitive origins that continue to resonate enough to retain popularity just because they echo something in the psyche? Anyway, that's my amateur impression!

Like you I resonate much more with HCA whose tales are much more poignant, harrowing and haunted!

[Nammu]

I identify with the crone

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I think the Grimm Brothers might be more examined because they didn't invent their tales but adapted them from pre-existing legends which helps bolster the idea of archetypal and perennial narratives - stories with primitive origins that continue to resonate enough to retain popularity just because they echo something in the psyche? Anyway, that's my amateur impression!

Like you I resonate much more with HCA whose tales are much more poignant, harrowing and haunted!

Yes, I suppose, the Grimm Brothers just relayed the old collective themes that existed within the collective unconscious long before them.

HCA stories seem to me to have a recurring theme of vulnerable, pure and sensitive souls who have to face the cruelty and the unfairness of the world they come into. Some come out of this confrontation victorious like Gerda, others not so much like Little Mermaid. I relate to a lot of their pain.

But, I ultimately found my saving grace in the teachings of Ekhart Tolle who talked and wrote extensively about staying in the present, here and now. One of the things he talks about is creating a distance between us and our stories and not identifying with any story no matter how beautiful and comforting it may be. When I remind myself that I am not my story it makes life easier. That's why I am not into archetypes very much. To me it's still a story even if it represents one of the collective themes. It's nice to be aware of it. I do believe that it helps us to understand our crazy egos and when we understand the ego better we can manage it better. But I found that distancing myself from any story I tell about myself is the key for me for feeling more alive. As an average human being I can't stay present all the time or even as much as I'd like to but I do my best.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by Nammu

I identify with the crone

I often do too.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

But, I ultimately found my saving grace in the teachings of Ekhart Tolle who talked and wrote extensively about staying in the present, here and now. One of the things he talks about is creating a distance between us and our stories and not identifying with any story no matter how beautiful and comforting it may be. When I remind myself that I am not my story it makes life easier. That's why I am not into archetypes very much. To me it's still a story even if it represents one of the collective themes. It's nice to be aware of it. I do believe that it helps us to understand our crazy egos and when we understand the ego better we can manage it better. But I found that distancing myself from any story I tell about myself is the key for me for feeling more alive. As an average human being I can't stay present all the time or even as much as I'd like to but I do my best.

Interesting point! I do think that however attuned we are to the present - and whatever efforts we make to be fully aware and in the now - that we DO still have a narrative about ourselves. We may not always be conscious of the narrative, but it is still there. I think this is why my early attempts at using meditation to try deal with depression and anxiety just weren't adequate. I also think that is why many people who engage with these types of philosophies and spiritual practices are not actually confronting their core issues. Some kind of representation of the self is necessary for day to day functioning - no matter how immersed one tries to be in the moment.

That being said - a fairytale is obviously not a really accurate representation of oneself or ones life. I think it can help to explore certain issues and possibly provide some insights. For instance your question as to why I chose my username rather than 'Gerda' made me reflect on the way I also identified with Kay. And the ambivalence I have to Kay-me. This then lead to an improved handling of a shame-rage state that I went into...

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I do think that however attuned we are to the present - and whatever efforts we make to be fully aware and in the now - that we DO still have a narrative about ourselves.

I never said we didn't. If you read my last post again I made it very clear that our narratives are legitimate and useful to reflect upon in order to understand the causes of our feelings, thoughts and behaviors. I was talking about distancing myself enough from my narratives not to let them run my life because I find that coming from a more objective, reality based place puts me in a better position to make best decisions for myself.

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

We may not always be conscious of the narrative, but it is still there.

I never argued otherwise. That's why I said that I think it's important to recognize and to understand the story but not to identify with it. In fact, it is only when we are fully identified with the story, we are not aware of of it and it runs our life instead of us being in a driver's seat.

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I think this is why my early attempts at using meditation to try deal with depression and anxiety just weren't adequate.

Mine too. But it depends on how exactly you define "meditation". If you think of it in a way the popular culture portrays it as sitting in a certain position and using certain techniques, this is a very narrow view of meditation. Any activity can become a meditation. Any moment can turn into a meditation. When I knit it is my meditation. When I play with my cats it is my meditation. I can turn anything into a meditation if I want to. "Meditation" in a large sense is simply allowing yourself to be intensely present with whatever experience, both internal and external, you have at the moment and to be able to observe it from a distance while still experiencing it.

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

I also think that is why many people who engage with these types of philosophies and spiritual practices are not actually confronting their core issues.

I assure you that I confronted my core issues much more than most people I know and that includes those who, unlike me, have been in therapy for many years.

But you are correct in pointing out that those practices may be used more as defenses by many people rather than the tools of awakening. I've met those who used them to avoid their darkness and vulnerabilities rather than to face and deal with them. Those people just didn't understand what they were doing and why. They didn't grasp the real purpose of those spiritual practices.

Actually, the same could be said about therapy. I've met too many people who were using therapy as a shield to avoid facing their real problems head on and their therapists often become complicit in this process. I'd say that in those cases too, they and their therapists both don't understand the real purpose of therapy.

So, I wouldn't make a generalization about any particular practice. Whether it's effective or not depends on how it is understood by those who engage in it, how it's done and the kind of people that engage in it.

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

Some kind of representation of the self is necessary for day to day functioning - no matter how immersed one tries to be in the moment.

Again, I didn't say it wasn't necessary. Of course, it's necessary for our daily functioning. All I said is that when this self-representation is all there is for the person and when they can't experience themselves beyond it then this self-representation controls their life rather than the other way around.

Originally Posted by thesnowqueen

That being said - a fairytale is obviously not a really accurate representation of oneself or ones life. I think it can help to explore certain issues and possibly provide some insights.

No one argues with this either. You keep making the same point over and over again. I never argued this point. My point was completely different but it seems like you've missed it.

I am not challenging the usefulness of narratives and I am not invalidating the value they hold for you or anyone else. But it seems like you feel invalidated for some reason. It was very helpful to me to recognize and to understand my narratives, but once I did I put enough distance between myself and them to know that I am not my stories while still staying connected to them enough to be able to function and to fulfill my life purpose.

[thesnowqueen]

I was just reflecting on your post and adding some considerations flowing from my own experience. I don't think there is any contradiction, just that currently what I might be finding useful is not what you are currently finding useful, and vice versa. Perhaps my tone was combatative - but I certainly didn't intend it to be.

[stopdog]

I did not see anything combative in your posts

Originally Posted by stopdog

I did not see anything combative in your posts

Me either. More in the last detailed response to them but maybe it's just me.

[thesnowqueen]

Originally Posted by Xynesthesia

Me either. More in the last detailed response to them but maybe it's just me.

Thanks Xynesthesia and Stopdog! I think on very personal topics its probably easy for misunderstandings to arise. I was more 'musing' on the topic than taking issue with anything being said.