T relationship mimics distance and rejection in real life relationships

To be fair, I've never tried CBT therapy, but everything I've read about it makes it seem like it would be less 'human' than a T who was eclectic or psychodynamic.

I actually have no idea what my T's "orientation" is psychologically, but she is open, relatable, human, and holds no thoughts that what she does is anything than going along with me on my "journey" to feel better/happier/content/whatever it is I am aiming for.

She has repeatedly told me that she does not hold the answers, but she IS there as a non-judgemental person to listen to whatever it is I have to bring. So far in the 2 years, its been true. Plus, she's funny

Could it be because you are talking to your counselor on an intellectual level? You said somewhere that you are very intellectual and thus it is no wonder you have lots of insights yourself but I suspect these insights are also intellectual. Thus I find it likely that on the intellectual level this counselor (or any psychotherapist for that matter) has nothing to offer you and probably this also not something you need.

I am a very intellectual person myself too and if my T tries to make an intellectual interpretation/observation I basically stop him immediately because I know that there is nothing he can give me in this mode. The only way new things can emerge for me are through emotional level. Maybe it is the same way for you too? However, it is much harder because if you have lived in your head your whole life then it is very difficult to let go of the intellectual thinking and just go along with your feelings. But I have found that this is the only way I can actually get some new input from my relationship with my T.

I also find this to be true. I'm very rational. And rationalizing/intellectualizing is one of my defence mechanisms. Gaining (rational) insight comes easily to me, but doesn't change anything. Or not much.

It is when I start connecting on an emotional level, that things start to move, that change happens. I find this tremendously challenging and difficult, and not just because I'm not used to expressing my emotions but also because somewhere along the way I've stopped feeling my emotions because emotions were deemed bad in my family. So whenever I start to experience (strong) emotions, even positive ones, it creates fear and panic.

Have you ever talked about those feelings with your therapist/counsellor? Not on an intellectual level, but really showing how you feel?

For me, the fear of rejection is a beast. I want to try avoid feeling rejected at all costs. So I start doing all the "right" things, being nice, polite etc. But not showing my true self. Not showing when I'm fed up, or angry, or even when I'm really happy about something.
And quite often I find that others distance themselves from me, because wth me they don't find anything "real" to connect to, because I'm so busy being nice and polite - the robot-mode. But to others it feels unreal, almost sterile. So fearing rejection could actually create more rejection in my life. Bit of a paradox really. And I could never figure it out, and didn't understand why this was happening, because I was doing all the "right" things... And the big lie we are telling ourselves is that rejection happens when we are showing our true feelings and thoughts. But I found the opposite to be true: rejection happens much more when I'm not showing myself to others.

And the same happened in my first therapy, about 20 years ago. We just didn't connect. I felt rejected. And it felt like she didn't care. At all. Because I was so busy trying to find out whatever it is my therapist is expecting of me, and trying to fulfill her expectations, that I never really showed her my "true self". But then I didn't really show this "true self" to myself at the time. So those 3 years of therapy stayed very superficial. I found them really frustrating, but I wasn't able at all to make this therapy work for me.

Looking back with what I know now about myself - what would have been helpful? I think, what I needed was a T who would help me to a) notice and b) experience my emotions - in a safe setting. Because emotions to me felt so unsafe and I was so over-controlled, I couldn't feel much, even less talk about it. That would have been a starting point for me. For her it just seemed that I didn't want to open up. That I was just holding back. But she didn't realize that it wasn't so much not wanting to but that I simply didn't have the capacity.

Another thing I've noticed over the years is that I used to behave a bit like a chameleon with other people. My "strategy" of creating some sort connection with other people quite often was to (unconsciouly) pick up on their emotions and to reflect it back to them. So I wouldn't seem "empty" (or like a robot) to them. And at the same time it created a (fake) connection, because we seemingly were on the same page.

So just assuming that you might have a similar strategy in connecting with different people: I was wondering that maybe it is this that you find so difficult in the T relationship? Because Ts are trained to hold back their own stuff, you are missing the "material" that you'd normally use to create some sort of connection. And all that you are experiencing is the lack and the gap. And the culprit is the T who is "distant".

To make some change happen: Maybe you could reframe this as a chance to start to learn to connect with people on your own accord, showing what is inside of you and what you are feeling? sounds easy. But believe me, it scares the ***** out of me...

Sorry, this is rather long. If my ramblings don't register with you, feel free to just skip them :-)

It's something wrong with you that can't be fixed if you weren't neither aware nor in therapy !!!

I knew an acquaintance with the exact same issue, and I left her because she blamed such issue on other people. She is a life coach, and uses it to blame people about her issues. I noticed that people don't enjoy spending much time with her because of this issue + blaming others about this issue.
Of corse, she refuses to get a diagnosis, mind you to go to therapy !!

You are far from blaming everybody for this issue. You recognized it, and it's a first step.

Now, what you say about not sharing echoes a lot.
As I said, it sets up a model of perfect therapist you must emulate for improving. The problem is that following such model of perfection is setting yourself up for failure.

From what I am reading, I perceive that your issue has to do with a therapist not fitting your needs.
Inadvertently, this therapist reinforces your tendency of acting nice and polite while you're afraid to be true to yourself. No wonder you feel it doesn't help you !!!

So, the issue is not about you. It is not your fault.
Blaming yourself won't unstick you from where you are.

My opinion is that your current therapist is not the right fit for you.
What works for someone else might not work for you, it can even be harmful.


Your issue can improve with the right therapist. It is not something you can't fix.
However, you can't fix this issue with the kind of therapist you describe, the opposite actually.

So, don't beat yourself up because it's disproportionate and unhelpful.
You have an issue, you are still a good person. You can acknowledge the pink elephant, but you don't have to allow it to ruin the party.

Your issue is being afraid of being true to yourself, so you seek help. You realize that this therapist doesn't help you because of her setting the therapy, no matter how hard you work.
Beating yourself up won't change the outcome.
Acknowledging the fact that your current therapy is actually unhelpful and finding a more suitable therapist is actually much more helpful.

You pay your therapist to help you, not the other way round.
So, you don't pay her to please her.

Acknowledging that your current therapy is unhelpful is perfectly ok, and is part of the journey.
Staying with a unhelpful therapist makes more harm than good actually.

There's nothing "wrong" with you, Sarah!
My guess is (from my own experience) that somewhere along the way you started to rely more on your intellect than on your emotions and intuitions. For me this was due to a variety of factors - being able to connect dots easily (on a rational level), getting lots of recognition for being "smart" (in school etc.), having parents who struggle with emotions themselves and tend to rationalize everything (so they couldn't really teach me about my emotions and how to handle them), and, being in fact way more emotional than I would have given myself credit for.

But what I learnt from my parents was: emotions are "bad". And because I'm a quick learner I learnt really easily how to keep my emotions out. And because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I put my energies into perfecting this "robot-mode".

For the last ~ 6/7 years I've been on this expedition to discover my emotional landscapes. The starting point was a complete break down at work due to feeling overburdened and being unable to say no to the unreasonable demands from my boss. (So this is where being what you feel others are expecting of you might ultimately lead you to...)

I realized I needed help and found a therapist. Because I was a breaking point anyway, I didn't care about hiding my emotions any longer, in fact I couldn't do this any longer, everything started to come to the surface. Leaving me totally confused. I had to start with the basics, with lots of support from my therapist. Learning how to feel. What those emotions are called. Where and how I feel them in my body. Quite often my T would notice an emotional shift before I would. Because I was so good at hiding those emotions from myself.

Talking about those emotions still is difficult. My T tends to call me out whenever I shift too much into rationalizing and keeps insisting: I want to know how you feel and not what you think.

Finding the connections to my emotional side was/is complicated and difficult. It creates a lot of panic and anxiety. Because those emotions quite often contrast my "robot-mode" which is being as agreeable and nice as possible. But I also find that those emotions are quite helpful. That they function as some sort of inner compass. That they bring back energy and vitality - which was missing for me for a long, long time. That they help me to find connections with people around me.

I'm still quite a rational person, analyzing quite a lot. The difference now is that I'm aware of my emotional side as well, that I don't automatically discard my emotions but integrate them into the equation...

I just wanted to say that this has all been incredibly helpful for me. All of it. Thanks to all.

Thanks for this, you have really put into words things that I identify with. I too have had trouble being real with people for exactly the same reasons, and with the same end result.

cinnamon_roll,

I can identify with your experience and "way of life", too, but I had years of therapy that did not help, and made things worse, because I got rejected and shamed by the therapists and was not yet "in touch" with my early feelings of rejection until finally, several months ago after an intense re-traumatization by my last therapist I "connected the dots" -- well, at an emotional level, it could hardly be called a "dot" -- and saw how many of my ways of life had been set in place to compensate for that feeling.

To some extent I can relate. I think as a client I se my expectations a little to high and then when I see what the realistic relationship is then I feel like I hit a wall.
I think it's tough to be open with someone and I feel like the therpeutic relationship is very one sided. It is suppose to revolve around the client. I think with being open and "bonding" it is easier to fall into thinking that it can develop into a relationship similar to the ones we we have outside of therapy. I think it's human for clients to feel this way.

My T is keen enough to recognize when this starts to happen and I can see when she starts reinforcing boundaries and "distancing" herself. Overall I find the therpeutic relationship to be sometimes overwhelming and just very complicated. i enjoy my Ts company and what she has to offer for the most part but it would be unrealistic for me to expect my T to interact with me in the way she does with her family and friends.

Nobody in my real life took large sums of cash in exchange for feigned caring, while calling it "treatment". And no real life relationship imposed on me such unnatural rules of engagement and perverse and uneven power dynamics.

I think what's healthy is to recognize how significantly therapy relationships depart from real ones, and to stay grounded in that reality.

As for therapists being mentors or teachers, having a license to practice does not confer wisdom or insight. A therapist is nothing unless and until they demonstrate tangible ability. Assuming the therapist is the wise one in the relationship leads to all the client-is-always-wrong discussions.

here today, I know what you mean - getting in touch with ourselves, connecting with our feelings seems to be especially hard, when you've been avoiding those feelings all your life. After all there are reasons why we've been avoiding this connection, mostly because those emotions were 'dangerous' in one way or another...

For me, the fact that I was literally falling apart at the time because I couldn't keep going like before 'helped' me to get in touch with my emotions. Not that I had much choice really. But ironically, looking back this may have been good for me, even though things were pretty raw and messy back then. But I'm not sure I would have reached that point without this pressure and without this desperate feeling that I can't cope any longer...

Unfortunately, I had reach the point of falling apart and had T's who shamed me for it, thus re-activating the original shame but not resolving it. It led to an enormous number of years of misery, still stuck, frantic, and trying to find some "help".

Very glad for you that it worked out at the time you had your crisis -- it didn't for me. But hearing and reading about the experiences of others who have had a bad experience in therapy has helped me somewhat to accept that for what it was -- bad therapy, not bad me. I may be on the mend at last. Time will tell.

This happens all the time in real life. For example, you have the power to join a cult or a religious sect, they also would promise they could heal you, take your money, and impose weird rules of engagement and uneven power dynamics.

Yet, at the same time, there are some perfectly healthy religious or spiritual groups out there that wouldn't do that.

Or you could join a pyramid scheme, masquerading as a "business opportunity." They would ultimately take lots of your money and leave you feeling powerless as well.

But then, on the other hand, there are healthy businesses that offer healthy and meaningful jobs.

You could make friends who take advantage of you, disrespect you, use your kindness one-sidedly. A lot of these friendships exist and a lot of people stay in them even when they feel depleted and broken and sad.

But also, there are lots of great friendships that people have.

Or you could find a partner who is abusive, only wants you for your money or something else, pretends around you that they're a saint and yet, talks horribly behind your back and will leave you like a vulture as soon as you run out of what they wanted from you.

But also, some partners are very good partners, very committed and happy in their relationships, deeply caring about the person they are with.

There are all kinds of circumstances where you can experience these dynamics, anywhere in life. Unhealthy people are unhealthy wherever they go. Unhealthy leaders still end up in leadership positions. Bad friends will still try to be your friend. Well-intentioned wannabe healers end up in "healing professions." There is a good and bad, effective or harmful use of any structure, any organization, any profession, therapy included.

Such is life. Unhealthy therapists will treat you in unhealthy ways. And unhealthy clients will gravitate toward unhealthy therapists, even if presented better choices.

But, the way a therapist acts towards their clients is truly no better or worse than the way they act to their friends or family. If they are a healthy person, they will offer healthy therapy. If they are an unhealthy person, they will offer unhealthy therapy, just like they will offer an unhealthy marriage, an unhealthy friendship, and whatever else.

You definitely can't trust a therapist just because they say they can help you. You have to evaluate if it is or isn't working. You have to evaluate the competence of the individual person based on whether or not they are delivering on their promises. Unfortunately the reality is that, if someone is unhealthy enough to keep believing the promises of a person who has consistently let them down and disappointed them with no evidence of change, that person would end up in similar unhealthy situations no matter what they did in life. Simply because those are the kind of people and the kind of behaviors that feel familiar to them. Those are the circumstances they will favor and gravitate towards.

Thanks. Yes, I think this is spot on but the hard thing here is that even if the T or counselor in this case points out I need to get in better touch with my feelings, no one has so far helped me in that direction.

My insights are mostly on an intellectual level as you speak and I mentioned to my former T that just knowing I´m "a lot in my head" wont create change. That´s why I see a T, to get help and guidance but I feel a lot of therapy has to do with the insights themselves and less about change, that´s how I´ve experienced it anyway.

As you, I´ve lived "in my head" for most of my life and for a long time I just went along, I didn´t see that as a problem but when I got older and feel this emptiness and loneliness I´ve begun to recognize it. It´s creating anxiety as those quite complex questions are far from what the public health care is handling and I don´t know how to get help.

Thanks. I can really relate to a lot of what you write and it feels nice to see someone with similar problems or life questions.

As you say, I don´t experience much change even if I continuously collect insights through here, through literature and sessions with my counselor. But it´s mostly on an intellectual level. As it´s not therapy in a traditional meaning with this counselor and we have just seen each other for 10+ times I haven´t got that far around these matters.

I don´t feel that much when I sit and talk with her, and I can very much relate to what you say about being polite, nice and a "good client" to my counselor. I want to avoid any reasons for her to reject me or be irritated with me or such and that takes away a bit of the freedom of just expressing things.

I have very little experience of freely expressing things, my feelings aren´t always there so to speak but I talk out of what seems to be "the right thing".

It was very interesting reading about the "robot mode" and to to all the right things to avoid rejection and in my case I very seldom get critique about how I act. It´s almost always me who ends relationships with friends because I feel they aren´t there for me. But I think some people find me in a similar way as you describe it, a bit impersonal and with a lot of integrity.

I don´t know my true self, not all of it and by that I can´t show that even if my counselor points out to me that she wants to see "the other half of me". I told her I don´t really know what to show and it´s now where we stand. We won´t have time to dig much deeper as it´s only less than two months left of our contact.

You said you back then didn´t have the capacity to show that much of emotions, do you now know why it was that way?

A good T needs to understand this as you say, not think it´s a attitude or a kind of not wanting to show emotions.

I can also be a bit of a chamelon, I quite easy start talking to new people, I quite easily understand them and their situation and the relationship becomes more about me supporting them than them getting to know me.

I agree the gap I feel between me and this counselor partly comes from that she doesn´t share anything about herself and I can´t find a way to relate. But in that case, I also think that this counselors way of conducting "therapy" even if it´s not therapy in a traditional meaning is too strict for me. I need a T who works on a more relational basis and who naturally shares more of herself. It creates more balance and that way of conducting therapy has developed from older forms of psychodynamic therapy.

I don´t know what to share that is emotional, I don´t want to share that much with my counselor because even if I share, as I´ve already has, I was sad about something or I felt hurt by a friend, she won´t meet that with any emotions. She´ll just comment, perhaps analyze it a bit, perhaps agree it´s natural to feel that way but that doesn´t encourage me to share emotions with her.

Thanks. I can again relate to what you talk about here, I also got a lot of recognition for being smart and as I was "more smart than social" I kind of compensated a bit of my loneliness with getting praise from teachers and others. I wasn´t completely alone but still.

I can´t really remember that I learned "emotions are bad" but not that emotions or emotional expressions were encouraged either. I was never in activities like playing theater, singing, painting or such.

It sounds like you could see a private T? I think it´s much easier if you have that possibility as public mental health care doesn´t deal with questions like those we speak about here. They deal, at least here in Sweden, with reducing anxiety and depression on a more shallow level, not digging deep. I don´t know how to get help as I can´t pay for therapy myself.

The integration is where I lack the most, to integrate my thoughts and my feelings to a larger extent than I do at the moment. Of course I feel things, I get moved by a sad movie and such but when it comes to feel something and to share that I don´t "success" as I would want to.

You said therapists "treat you in roughly the same manner as anyone else in your life treats you." For me that is not even close to being true. Citing various extreme scams and traps is not really a robust argument. Also, therapy is considered socially acceptable (even necessary), and is heavily marketed and cloaked in pseudo-medical language. Has a very privileged position. Totally unique in this regard. That it does turn out in some ways to be like a cult or a pyramid scheme makes it what it is. Many people that would not get screwed by cults and pyramid schemes or even abusive partners might fall into subtly abusive or exploitive therapy relationships, and get treated in a uniquely unhealthy way... while being pressured to see it as "treatment" and medically necessary, etc. Dig me?

ps: Sorry this getting off topic.

Thanks. I think this has very much to do about the T and what technique he or she uses. I saw a T within what´s called relational psychodynamic therapy and there the T shares more and it´s integrated in their technique. It´s a way to create a more natural relationship and I think it´s a more sound way to conduct therapy through.

Sometimes what therapists say is downright idiotic and inane. It is difficult for the client to admit this because of being put in bondage by emotional investment. It is really difficult to separate out helpful from just plain stupid advice.

The OP seems concerned that therapy reflects real life longings. Maybe this is so. She says, for instance, that maybe she would have deeper friendships with childhood friends. Well, I have a friend from childhood and she can be very distancing. She also seems to think all of her behavior should be accepted even though she can often be quite rude and offending.

How easily people break the bonds of friendship, walk away from decades long relationships,and place heavy handed restraints on intimacy in the name of keeping healthy boundaries. Is therapy no different? In fact, a little worse, because money is being paid for this painful re-enactment of real life.

People are basically approach avoidant. If you ignore them they often move closer. As soon as the friendship or relationship becomes comfortable or predictable they create distance. If my childhood friend sees that on FB I have commented on someone's post she will immediately comment on one of my posts. This kind of thing is so silly that it has caused me to avoid FB altogether.

I pay a therapist to help me resolve my problems through professionally acquired insight and suggestions on how to change my behavior. I have become disillusioned and disappointed with therapy's ability to deliver what it promises. Perhaps this mirrors real life.

I certainly get that what happens in therapy can reflect real life and can be a window into basic patterns. So can anything that happens in life. This whole thing about the therapeutic space being so privileged and special and pure, it's a lot of excrement. Therapy can also create a whole new reality, dangerously divorced from the external one. It can spawn its own twisted drama that becomes a thing unto itself. I agree with what you say about the bondage thing.

The difficulties OP faces relating to therapists could reflect therapy as much as anything else. The architecture is unique. It might be like other things, but it is also very unlike other things. Where else in life are you in this little two-person psychological sect, no outside influence, no oversight, no reality checks, for months or years, with someone who is somewhat or largely inscrutable?

Yet, medication and therapy are the traditional "go-to" treatments. It seems natural to turn to them. It is what friends and family say to off-load responsibility...instead of maybe being more caring and attentive? Then when these treatments don't work the "patient" feels guilty and is left trying to figure out what is happening.

Reading this thread and other threads have been helpful.

I am now prepared to tell the counselor I have been working with that whatever she is doing it isn't helping me. I sent her a few emails to this effect.

Why is it that therapists and counselors always get let off the hook?

If insights, relief, and positive transformation does not happen in a moderate amount of time the therapist or counselor should be held accountable. I would say that 10 sessions for the OP is a moderate amount of time.

SarahSweden

I have tried to read through your thread, but cannot guarantee that I understood everything. But I got one thing: you are clever at "intellectualizing".

The way I see that is that it can be both a strength and fault. The strength lies in that our society need people that are able to think rationally. The "fault" may be, as you mentioned, that you can get problems with to get to know what you feel. Of course there are different types of therapists, some very skilled others less skilled. Theoretical frame can differ, but there was a study once that showed that skilled therapists of different theoretical frames behaved almost similar in therapy. So it shouldn't matter what theoretical frame your therapist prefer, but if she/he is skilled or not.

There is always the possibility that you can try somebody else, if you come to the conclusion that this doesn't work for you. But your problems with intellectualizing will follow you into a new therapy, I think.

When I read through your thread I had some ideas: Why not try to put yourself in different situations where you have to feel something. Examples: Sit in the sun and ask yourself what you feel. Warm, OK, but isn't there a spark of another feeling as well? Some kind of wellbeing? Can you call that feeling happiness, just a little? What about bowing to a dog poop? Do you have a feeling? What can you call that feeling? May be you feel disgust? Well that is a feeling too. What about taking your time to feel the water when you are in a swimming pool, good, calming or what? Do you have a cat or can you borrow somebody elses. How does it feel to have the cat on your lap, warm? good? relaxing? some kind of happiness? ....

What I mean is that to become better from MI seldom means therapy alone. You might have to add something yourself. May be you didn't like my suggestions, but if you do them or similar, you probably get used to ask yourself what you feel. (You are probing your feeling like a fisherman who shifts his bait). The next step can be to ask yourself what you feel in different social settings. What do you feel when somebody make you laugh or other things? ... I mean that the feeling of rejection and distance is so familiar to you that may be you have to work hard to recognize other feelings. Build relationships you can do later ...

Just my two pence

I hope that in some way or other you will feel better in the long run. Speak to your therapist about what is important to you and speak up if the only thing you get back is "umhhh", "understand" and so on always.

Good Luck!

It's never too late ... What stops you from looking for a (non professional) choir, or do a painting course or something similar? Not for the sake of getting 'perfect' at whatever it is, but in order to get in touch with yourself and your feelings?

Also, I like singer47's suggestions. Just stopping in your everyday activities and ask yourself: how do I feel. Right now. in this moment.
And maybe in this moment you can say you feel happy because the sun in warm and shining in your face and the birds are singing. Don't think about the moment before or after. Now is the moment that counts...
Or maybe right now you are angry because the bus driver didn't stop to pick you up. Or you're nervous because....

No, it's public health insurance where I live. But I agree, the choice in different Ts and different modalities seems to be much wider than what you are describing. But it also depends on where you're living (city or somewhere in the country without much infrastructure...)

have you ever tried mindfulness exercises? This really helped me a lot to get in touch with my emotions. It really helped me to get into just "feeling mode" (as opposed to 'robot-mode' (doing what I'm expected to do, without feeling much) or "judgmental mode" (feeling, but judging my feelings at the same time...)) Also: drawing what I'm feeling. Using a different mode of expressing yourself, not words. Can you imagine doing a "happy dance" for yourself when you feel good and some happy music plays in the radio?

It is like learning a new language, or learning to walk. It doesn't happen over night. you start with baby steps, and you have to keep practising and repeating the same stuff over and over again. Wich can be quite tiring and exhausting...

I think a lot of this can be done on your own. Or maybe there's something like mindfulness meetups where you live, to find some like minded people who are on a similar journey...

That's one of the techniques that my T uses. There are times that she does share her experiences or speaks about her life a bit but then there are times that she will not discuss her life at all. She will sway back and forth so it becomes a hit or miss. She does distance herself and reinforces her boundaries. The overall feel is that she's in control and adjust to her mood and tempo. This is as "natural" as it gets for me but it is what it is. I prefer know what it is and understand it than to live an illusion and then be disappointed later.

I'm seeing a psychodynamic T at the moment, my T before that was CBT-type... To be honest, I cannot see much difference in the way they "do" therapy. With my CBT T, we still talked a lot about "our" relationship. And my current psychodynamic T still brings lots of CBT-stuff into the session. Like reframing my thought patterns...

For me it comes down to good Ts, not so good Ts and bad Ts. Most have their preferred school of thought, yes, but a lot of them work kind of eclectically, adapting bits and pieces they find on the way that they feel are helpful...

If I remember correctly, your last T was psychodynamic, and you didn't really find her helpful? So maybe this is less about T's school of thought, or their training, but how you are able to connect in general.
About your expectations, your 'need' for this relationship and your T to be 'perfect' (ie meeting your expectations 110%), and nothing less will do? Have you ever thought about why you "need" those expectations? Both of yourself and of others? What do they protect you from? Imagine someone saying to you, to put a hold to those expectations, leave them out, for now. What would that do to you, what would that make you feel like?
Just a thought... don't feel you have to reply.