What just happened?

This is so utterly f***ed. What am I doing?

Aw, that's difficult Luc. I get the longing feelings...

You're trying to figure this out.
You're hanging in there
You're doing your best.

What did he say that made you furious and brought on that fight/flight feeling?

He said a bunch of stuff I don't really remember that just really wasn't what I needed to hear, and then... He said I was "like a toddler."

Yeah, that one again.

I think when he gets defensive he infantilises me so he can feel powerful again.

I hate him so much and I hate myself so much and I hate everything so much.

I emailed him what I wrote back in May, and I really wish I hadn't now.

I hate to see you hurting like this. It isn't your fault. I wish he had handled this better.

I agree with Spoon. He hasn't handled this well at all. I'm sorry you're in so much pain

Sounds so difficult, Luc. I'm sorry you're in so much pain. I relate to the longing feelings too. Can feel so excruciating.

thanks lovely people. Daisy I think you have Argo confused with Spoon because of her black and white icon. I'm sure neither of them are offended though since they're both great

He has replied to my email and I can't bring myself to read it.

I thought he wasn't going to reply and I felt bad about that and now he has and I feel bad about that. I know it's going to be a s**t reply.

Hi Luc,

I wanted to acknowledge your email (similarly to offering you tissues),

I appreciate you letting me know you're thoughts, and I believe it could be useful to discuss further what you have written when we next meet.

I look forward to seeing you on 21.8.17

Love him, hate him, etc.

Feel like I'm howling into the void now.

Howl.

I'm going to go back to him because I want him to hold me. He won't and it wouldn't make anything better anyway but there it is.

Maybe I really am falling apart this time.

Gutted to hear that things have taken this turn, Luc. Hope you'll find some peace soon.

Grr, I just typed up a long post and lost it... Anyway, I was mostly saying that it sounds like your therapy is quite stuck at the moment and none of you really know what to do with each-other apart from discharging momentary emotions. Is it just me reading this into your posts or something you feel as well? If the latter, I would probably confront the T directly about this, that you want to find a way to move forward and do something with all that stuff rather than adding more rounds of the same kind. I would ask him if he has ideas what would be a specific way to move and what should be discussed rather than just responding and reacting to whatever you bring up. I would tell him that I go there and pay him because I want him to contribute in meaningful ways instead of just qualifying your reactions in the moment. Also, maybe think about what YOU want to do with the whole therapy thing now, where would you like to take it, what would you like to address specifically?

I had a number of periods in my therapy when I felt it had become mostly an aimless wandering than something that had a purpose, and I brought it up with the Ts each time. To be honest, most of the time it wasn't met with agreement from the T but it helped me to at least raise my dissatisfaction and express that I wanted to change something that wasn't truly working for me. It helped me to keep a perspective even if the T did not care to have one.

On the "toddler" comment... I also felt several times, especially with one T, that he was patronizing and treated me like a child more than an interaction between two adults. This always bothered me a lot because it's not how I like to see myself and and to be perceived, but I guess the momentary reactions can indeed seem very young at times (so were many of my Ts reactions to me). Regardless, that sort of comment is indeed patronizing and feels more like a power game than anything else, if it is not placed in a more insightful and helpful context. I once had a friend, or more precisely a sort of mentor, who was more a good therapist for me (he used to be one before retired) than any of the official Ts I paid for their services. He had a way to provide feedback on my reactions and behavioral patterns that I had never seen from a T, I find his thoughts and how they were presented extremely valuable and helpful. I once had a particularly strong reaction to him when I felt he was dismissing or rejecting me (very uncharacteristic of me!) and his response was calm, saying that I he thought I reacted in a very youthful manner and what do I think about his thought? I agreed and we had a great, intelligent discussion about it that actually unwrapped a lot of things.

One thing I dislike about many Ts approach is that they just assume an authority role without ever really establishing it based on their contributions. I know that part of this is coming from me and my relationship with authority in general, but I think it is good to not take things for granted and express concerns and disappointments directly. That's something I did not do nearly enough of when I was in therapy and would do differently... I tried to focus on whatever was positive and often ignore the rest, I think I definitely let my Ts get away with too much.

Hi Xyn, good to see a post from you! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I was feeling like we were stuck, yes. I was feeling like I was repeating a familiar pattern and he was being drawn into it. I felt that it wasn't doing me any good and that he needed to recognise his part in it for us to move forward. He seems to feel competitive with me and he seems to argue with me for the sake of arguing - for example, the session before last he tried to disagree with me about whether or not he was there to help me. Which is... ridiculous. We just end up debating semantics in the most tedious and useless way.

So I did, specifically and deliberately, confront him about this in our last session and ask him what we were going to do about it. It was pretty much all we talked about. I also detailed what he had done in our previous session that had upset and angered me, and why it did. My plan was that if he did not answer to my satisfaction, I would leave him. He didn't answer to my satisfaction, at all, and in the moment that I accepted that I would have to leave (after he compared me to a toddler) I felt like a failure for not being able to work things out with him, and I felt the pain of knowing I would have to sever my attachment to him.

That's when I started crying, and that's when he said he wanted to hold me. I was confused and annoyed by that because it got in the way of my resolve to leave him, and I told him so.

So that's where I'm at. I have very little hope for our relationship being therapeutically beneficial to me at this point, I just don't feel I can leave him. It's not a rational decision coming from a logical place.

I feel like maybe he manipulated me... whether conscious or otherwise. It was like he knew he'd lost me and found the perfect thing to say to get in the way of that.

He doesn't patronise me in general, but this is not the first time (I don't know if you remember) that he's compared me to a child in what seems to be a defensive manner. I think he feels threatened by me sometimes and tries to redress the balance by, as I said, infantilising me. It does also seem to be a power game. I'm aware that I'm often childlike and fine with that, but I wasn't feeling that way yesterday and his 'observation' seemed totally off.

Maybe this was already brought up on another thread but I don't recall... have you tried to consult with other therapists to see if someone else could be more helpful? Just in parallel. I know that you can't afford to see two, but maybe just skip a week or two with him and see someone else?

Yeah this is definitely something I've been thinking seriously about. It's probably a good idea. The only thing that's stopping me is that even skipping a week or two with him seems like a difficult thing to do...

Yes, but seeing him also seems pretty difficult right now and causes you a lot of pain. Of course I know these things are not rational at all and easy to say...

Hope you're feeling better now bud. It sounded like you were going through a real tough period so seriously, hope things got better.

Anywho, I've read quite a number of responses from our fellow users and since transference was brought up and it seems to be the main issue here (from what I'm seeing) and the best way to resolve this is to see another therapist.

You have to know one thing, the therapist you're seeing right now IS NOT professional. Saying things like "I want to hold you" is not something a therapist should say to a client because THEY KNOW of the effects it can have.

I studied psychology as well and in the study on code of ethics, we have to learn to deal with transference. If he is keeping you around and you aren't making much or any progress at all, something isn't right.

From the sound of it, do correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be doing worst :-O

That's a red alert signal already. If this is truly the case, then he is keeping you around for some other personal selfish reasons, maybe to satisfy a certain esteem needs of his own or perhaps even an ego boost etc.

Best way to deal with transference, again, change of therapist. Hope I'm reading the situation right and gave the right suggestion here.

Glad you shared this with everyone here btw. It's good to let off some steam and rant to help you feel better :-)

This part really sticks out to me. It's exactly how I felt about EMDR - a terrible feeling. And you, Luc, very kindly reminded me that my T had a part in things, too. You also told me you didn't think I'd failed at anything.

I don't think you've failed at anything, either.

I have had many such sessions that leave me feeling desperate. There are differences though - my such difficult sessions are not caused by ET and I don't ever have to wait a full week to continue discussing things.

The first difference - that I don't have an ET - I would actually consider minor. Although it for some reason felt humiliating to you when the T said that he sees you like a toddler I think he might have made a very true observation. I think I've told you before that I believe that sexual feelings typically mask much younger pain and thus a toddler or even an infant emerging somehow from all this mess sounds pretty logical. The hurt you describe feels familiar to me (at least it seems to me so, there is always the danger that I might be projecting) and to me it has always been associated coming from very young parts.

As for the session frequency, I know you've written that increasing the frequency wouldn't be an option for you. I know for myself though that having frequent sessions has been one important aspect that has enabled to me to tolerate surfacing these feelings, otherwise I probably would have had the urge to terminate very often. Maybe you could discuss the options of how you could get these feelings out of your system more frequently between session, for instance perhaps you could email him more often or call when you feel particularly difficult.

One thing that my T has told me repeatedly in such situations is that I don't tolerate lack but as something is lacking in my sessions all the time then it stirs up those difficult and intolerable feelings in me. He has literally said it to me tens and tens of times and until yesterday these words had absolutely no meaning for me. I think the reason I'm writing this response right now is because yesterday I suddenly had a glimpse of what he might mean by that. That indeed, something is constantly lacking in my sessions - the perfect understanding, perfect holding, perfect oneness. I think I previously did not realise that he was referring to those things when he talked about feeling the lack, mostly because I did not understand my self what is it that I demand from him. But yesterday for I moment I understood. I understood that he said that until I can't tolerate him being a separate person from me, until then I'm unable to accept the good things he is offering to me and the only thing I sense is this horrible lack that threatens to disintegrate me into pieces.

I don't really know what to tell you. Somehow it felt relevant to share my experiences here with you. I don't know if it helps you or not but I hope you somehow find your way through these very difficult feelings.

I emailed another T.

I've been thinking about the whole "toddler" comment. That's what got me so mad at t this recently just healed rupture - she told me I was "childish" for wanting to end therapy. There are different phrases that would not have bothered me near as much if t has used them instead of childish - some here in this thread. Like "young" or "youthful" or whatever along those lines. So much less infantalizing than "toddler" or "childish". For me, when t said I was childish, the negative maternal transference exploded, and she was my mother. And I yelled at her, we fought and I told her I hated her and all that. That happened on July 5, and it took us a couple of sessions, me quitting via email, a 3 week break from each other, and me humbly asking to come back and now we are fully past the rupture. It was really difficult and I was soooo miserable while it was happening. I really hope you're able to get some kind of resolution to your situation and I'm sending good thoughts and healing energies to you.

Thank you for sharing that, Art. I'm really glad to hear that you feel you're fully past the rupture!

Yeah - it has on multiple occasions really made me furious. Given that he knows how much it pissed me off when he said I was like "a petulant child having a tantrum" months ago, waiting for a moment where I desperately needed him to be understanding to call me 'a toddler' was pretty terrible of him.

I am a childlike person in many ways and I am comfortable with that. Sometimes I feel very childlike when I'm with him, and I'm fine with talking about that, too. But this was different, it wasn't really about me. It was about him.