When your t shares too much about their private life.

I don't see boundaries, my own or anyone else's, as black and white. I keep to fairly strict ones with the therapist and what I will and will not allow. The therapist I hired has much looser ones depending upon the client. I know other of her clients who had what I consider to be extremely more fluid boundaries with the woman than I ever would have allowed.
I don't consider black and white when talking about a therapist iof all things, to be a great and virtuous good.

I agree with feileacan about the difference between boundary and boundary. I, however, have a hard time seeing how most of them can be black and white and rigid - is that possible, or even if it is, is it a truly good practice? Also, in reality, from reading this forum, the literature, my own experiences - I am not sure I have heard of a single case of longer term therapy where the boundaries regarding how T and client did things were static over many months, years, from beginning. If they were, most likely they would get in the way of progress in therapy, or even just communication. What is helpful and harmful can also vary between client and client, and also during the course of work with one client. My personal opinion on this is that there may be a healthy, realistic range, spectrum for each boundary - and there are unhealthy, destructive extremes at the edges. I think most people post the critical comments about mona's T because she seems to operate on the edges. But if mona finds useful things in it, it is her experience and call.

There are also other aspects of the judgment topic, which would probably be better as a separate discussion, but just briefly. Stories on a forum like this are extremely limited by default - the OP usually chooses a few aspects to post, and there may be more over time if it's a repetitive theme, but still. We also only hear one side of it - the person's who reports it. Inevitably, if there is criticism, the poster often feels it's targeted to them, because they are telling a story with themselves being part of it.

I personally understand why people that are therapy students or more senior therapists here would feel disturbed by hearing extreme stories, and how they would extrapolate from them. I am not a T but a scientist, and often when I don't know the work of someone but am aware they are scientists as well, and see in some area of their life that they are overly sloppy, lack critical thinking or curiosity about new things or improvement - I can't help myself but cringe, at least inside. But it can be very unfair, and I have had numerous first hand experiences demonstrating it: quite often someone's personal choices and personal life management has very minimal or no parallels with their abilities and accomplishments in their work, and the quality of the work they do. I have seen quite a lot of examples both ways (stellar, seemingly perfect personal life and bad career choices with lack of success, and vice versa). I do truly believe that one can use personal examples to learn how not to do things when it comes to professional life. Or for a much deeper understanding that will never come from books and classes. For example, one of my main research areas is something I experienced in a very hardcore way, trapped in it way too long... doing the research never helped me to get out of the trap back then, but having resolved it eventually, I feel how the experience has made my understanding of the topic much richer and deeper, in ways that I do not see from many of my colleagues.

What I am more concerned about regarding mona's story (and similar ones) is the stress that difficult, ongoing life experiences can impose on our mental health in the long run - inevitably, these often affect how we are able to perform in other areas, and sometimes the realization of it comes only later. Again, speaking from first hand experience. Not the choice per se, but the potential consequences that cannot easily be seen ahead of time.

I do see that my own students very much like black and white thinking and application of rules (until, of course, it comes to themselves). They struggle and rail against the notion that it both does not exist in a vacuum and that it won't protect them.

Well okay. But as someone who has been badly hurt by a therapist who thought that grey areas in therapeutic boundaries were a-okay, I'm not willing to let such an assertion from a therapist go unquestioned.

I like this. I've been aware when trying to support Mona that I have a parallel in my own life with trauma bonding ( and my life experiences that contribute to having that issue ) and it would be easy to sit in a glass house and throw stones. And I've gone on about it a lot in therapy , because I need to , I would not feel happy for my T to be unsupportive of this. I've also caught myself not feeling very supportive of a member here due to what another member said , and been mindful of it ever since. " Oh , that's unhealthy behaviour " was the concensus and yes it is , but maybe the unhealthy behaviour continues until it doesn't need to anymore.

I don't think a T should cry during threapy.

For me, it depends on what kind of crying it is. If I had a therapist that broke out wailing about my stuff and/or her stuff I would have to quit. Previous therapists have shed a few tears at salient moments in my life story and our time together. It has been very healing for me. I would imagine other clients not so.

Existential psychologists, on the other hand, are expected to engage in discussions of larger events as a context for the problems of their clients. Obviously you don't like this method (though from what you say you've initiated it sometimes) .I considered it essential on occasion in my therapy because I felt it was useful to talk about the overall subject of psychology itself, but more important how my woes relate to the society we live in overall.

I'm glad for you that you have the kind of therapist who works with you to make these kinds of discussions you find useless or annoying short and rare.

Actually your post was before this comment. I did not choose to engage about question about my clients as they are nobodies business only me and my clients and the organisations I work for and my supervisors.
Why do you feel the need to question me as a therapist.
I still say boundaries aren't black and white and you can think that's wrong and that's your prerogative, neither is right or wrong just our own experiences.
You may well have your opinions but between you and "Ididitmyway" (who has since deleted her post) it feels very personal and like bullying.

Thank you stopdog, this is what I wanted to say but couldn't.

I know too much about my t

Thank you Attachmentbuenos,
Yes there are two sides to every story. As a mother our instinct is to protect and we need to trust out therapists and as therapists and clients will be different again. We learn from every experience and try to integrate it with what we already know. Sometimes we get it wrong in whichever roles we are in at any given times.

In my first comment, before you engaged with the client question, I wasn't talking about your client work. Read it again. I responded that way in response to that other post. I'm sorry you didn't find it useful but I find therapists with blurred boundaries a particular trigger for me. But this is your thread and clearly you didn't want the kind of response I gave so I will step away from the thread.

I really can't get my head round the hypocrisy of this post. Seriously, it makes no sense to me. You appear to be saying 'no-one should judge your ability to work in your chosen career based on your posts here mona... now excuse me while I openly judge the ability of other members here to work in their chosen careers.'

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this and assume it's accidental, but you should also be aware that some of the things you say appear to be rather specifically and unpleasantly targeting particular members here.

I don't believe that your clients are nobody's business in situations when people believe that you might pose a potential danger to their well-being due to your cluelessness about the ethical rules of your profession (because if you condone some of the things your therapist is doing to you, you are clearly clueless about the purpose of ethical rules). Just like it's everybody's business when an alcoholic gets behind the steering wheel and starts driving while drunk. I could have compassion for their problem and help them to overcome it and to get sober, but I won't stay silent when they are in denial of the fact that they have a problem and when their denial puts other people in danger.

My question was not about implying that ethical boundaries are black and white. This was a red herring you introduced to deflect the conversation from exploring how your blindness regarding your own therapy can cause you to become blind about your approach to your work, which can put your own clients in danger.

If you don't see the connection between what's happening in your therapy and your work as a therapist, that doesn't mean there is no connection. When other people see it, they bring it up. They can't, in good consciousness, let it go unnoticed and unaddressed.

Is this not supportive, judgmental? Hell yeah. There is no such thing as unconditional support of anyone under any circumstances. Support will always have its limits. I can support you with all my heart as long as I see that your destructive and harmful "therapy" doesn't affect anyone else. But the minute I believe it potentially puts other people in danger, which I do, my support will end at that point.

You shouldn't be surprised to see the reactions you are seeing here. You are coming to a forum where many people have been harmed by therapists who were confused about professional ethics and who were too caught up in their own personal dramas and all kinds of personal issues to be fit to do the work they were supposed to be doing. When they see you being on the same low level of self-awareness as their therapists were, understandably, it triggers their traumas and, understandably, they react strongly to your story. For them and myself, the fact that you are being abused by your own therapist doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to do your own work ethically and professionally, and, if someone believes that you may not even understand what it means, they become concerned about the well-being of your own clients. It seems to me that you don't understand what professional and ethical work entails, because if you did you wouldn't be condoning your own therapist's actions. As long as you choose to stay willfully ignorant about the connection between your own therapy and your work, you won't get much support from those who have been harmed by the ignorant therapists like you.

I'm hesitant to make this comment as I am not an "insider", but I keep wondering about one thing in this whole debate on how a therapist's own destructive therapy experience conflicts with their work ethic and professional ability. From all the therapists posting on this forum and sharing their experiences (including those that posted on this thread), I recall everyone reporting being stuck in unhelpful/unethical/harmful (wherever on this range) therapy themselves at some point. Mona's is just happening here and now and she has the courage to share it in real-time. Why do others feel so superior to her? And yes, this is meant to be judgment, or at least a strong opinion.

Maybe I am clueless, but I don’t see where in this thread Mona has said what her therapist is doing wrong is a-okay. In fact her post 6 states the opposite. In other threads, mona has called her therapist abusive.

She also recognizes that the woman has helped her. That doesn’t mean she thinks the woman’s behavior is all right and she should be excused anything. I get the sense mona feels trapped in this relationship, as a client.

Lots of people here on PC, including me, have been slow to leave bad therapy relationships where there has also been good. That obviously happens to therapists and potential therapists as well. Just because one is a therapist does not mean one is immune to the dangers and risks of therapy, or has any easier of a time breaking free of them. In fact it might make it harder to leave if you also move in the same professional circles.

I would think the best way to support mona is to encourage her to leave and be here for her. Not conflate her professional life as a therapist (which ethically she can’t even discuss here) with her posts here as a client.

All of us are welcome to use the ignore button.

A salient point , Mona is trapped in this relationship as a client with her T. I don't recall Mona ever saying this was ethical - she knows the T is abusive.

Just to respond to the people who are (at least in part) aiming their comments at me.

1) I don't judge her at all for being stuck in an abusive relationship and I certainly don't feel superior. If you look back on my posts in mona's threads over the last several years I have been nothing but supportive. I was particularly triggered by her answering a question about how she would handle boundaries with her clients. An issue she engaged with and that I see as separate to her attachment to the abusive therapist.
2) @@ the use of the word a-okay was a reference to my first therapist not to mona.

I used the word a-okay in total ignorance of the fact that you used it. It is a rather common expression.

And I was not aiming my comment at you. Or anyone, actually, but was made from a general sense that this thread has gone off the rails and I think the op is not being given the support she needs and is instead being raked over the coals for entirely putative and speculative problems that might arise with her clients because op has a problematic relationship with her therapist.

Okay sorry for making that assumption.

Many people all around the world have been through and are going through all loads of crap, but they go on to do their jobs quite well; the consummate professional. In my past, having been a caregiver, teacher, etc., I know what it is like to do what others would call a stellar job when inside I was a struggling mightily. If they had known, they would probably not want me at the job, but my FOO taught me well in that regard.

As long as someone is doing their job well if I need to be engaged with them, I don't care what is happening in their personal or emotional life.

Best of luck to you.

This thread reminds me of something else I often think about, in the context of the promises of therapy and many others. That awareness alone often does not lead to progress and solutions whatsoever. Being trapped in a destructive/abusive relationship with knowing full-well what is going on, with occasional attempts to try to understand and protect the abuser might be one of these? The other situation I am personally more familiar with in depth, and often compare to destructive relationships, is addiction. I think these often arise and operate in very similar ways, including getting out and the recovery process. Addicts of all kinds often reach a stage with the habit (typically involving attempts of quitting and relapses) where there is no denial anymore - yet it continues. Sometimes I think the consciousness, and being an "expert", actually hinders healing and delays solutions, because the person thinks they understand the inner workings of the issue and is able to keep it on a less destructive level.

I definitely experienced this with addiction and it created some of the worst, most painful cognitive dissonance and self-hatred for me: the conflict between a high level of awareness of the issue and still engaging in the problem, without resolution. For me, eventually this kind of cognitive dissonance helped to make very serious steps ahead/out because it became so unbearable I could not live with myself that way anymore (besides the myriads of other consequences). But it takes a lot more than awareness and willpower; I think these kinds of changes often require radical alterations in lifestyle in many different ways since the problems do not exist in isolation and are often reinforced by other less healthy co-existing habits and patterns. So for example, going back to the thread topic: I would imagine it would perhaps take more than just changing therapists...

Not sure if this is helpful, but I just remembered and wanted to share.

I don't want to explain that my previous posts were not coming from the intend of being superior to the OP. People can take my words however they want to take them. I stand by what I have said and I don't have the slightest need to justify my posts.

When someone says that they are "grateful' for the fact that their therapist has bent the rules for them and that they appreciate the fact that the therapist has been "real" with them by making a bunch of inappropriate self-disclosures, that IS condoning the therapist's unethical behavior. That's as clear condoning as it could get. Anyone who claims it is not lives in an alternate universe.

I took a moral stance in the matter that felt important to me and I feel good about it. I stand by every word I have said. I will continue to take a moral stance whenever I feel it is needed. With that I am leaving this thread, as there is nothing for me here to add.