Do/did you feel/think the therapist heard you or did you feel held by the therapist?

I glanced over this quickly cuz I wanna go make breakfast for my son (one of those rare mornings we're both here at the same time and all) and what caught my eye was "In relational integrative therapy it is based on a collaborative, witnessing, dialogical process." the witnessing part. t does that and from her I learned how to do that for myself, which has been super helpful for me to be able to do, not really sure I can explain it. But that jumped out at me. I'm going to read the article more closely after I make breakfast.

Not what I was thinking of when I wrote my previous posts, but...

Reading this, it actually explains why this is so hard/impossible to achieve in therapy. It is meant to mimic parent-child, but an adult client is not a child, the therapist is by no means a parent to them, and the frame in which therapy is conducted is not even similar to a family environment. Not only regarding the question of outside of session contact, but even in session. I personally do think it is an attractive and theoretically meaningful analogy but a false premise for the most part and big part of why so many clients are disappointed, develop unbearable cravings, get hooked and can't leave bad therapy (or even good therapy), and will not really resolve real life issues but get distracted with this illusion. I think this illusion can never last because the most basic frame of it is pretty much impossible to establish and maintain in therapy. Just my view though.

That article - while I thought it was crazy - was to illustrate more what I was trying to get at with the holding part of the question - to distinguish from whether therapists think about clients or not (a concern I do not understand at all -but comes up all the time - even in this thread). I read about those guys saying it (holding) is what they think/purport/sell that they do - I just was wondering if clients thought it had happened to them or not.

Interesting. At the end of the article under resources, is a book called "On Learning from the Patient". T said last week that she learns a lot from me. I didn't have time to ask her what she meant as I was on the way out when she said it, but now I want ask what she meant. Might be an interesting book.

An explanation of being "held", from the analyst who developed it while collaborating with his wife:

"Winnicott developed several theories and concepts that helped shape the way in which psychoanalysis is practiced today. Winnicott and his wife used the term “holding” to refer to the supportive environment that a therapist creates for a client. The concept can be likened to the nurturing and caring behavior a mother engages in with her child that results in a sense of trust and safety. Winnicott believed that this “holding environment” was critical to the therapeutic environment and could be created through the therapist’s direct engagement with a client. Winnicott also believed that antisocial behaviors developed from a person’s having been deprived of a holding environment in childhood and from feelings of insecurity."

I struggle with trust, and with feeling safe. I have felt both, but it comes and goes. When I feel "held", I feel comfortable, and that I can speak freely.

I have felt heard by current T -- usually not in the moment, in session (unless it's something that I'm not terribly upset about), but later on when she's changed her behavior based on something I've either explicitly said or even things I thought I didn't fully verbalize.

And, of course, there are enough and more times when I've felt (and continue to feel) not heard by her.

I think that's par for the course and has happened with most people I know (and vice versa, I'm sure).

As for the idea of being held -- current T does believe in it a fair bit. Has sometimes (makes me roll eyes, yes) even made the gesture of holding (put her arms out kinda thing). I've mostly just stared at her mutely then.

I will say though that when she's not actually made those hokey gestures but instead just sort of intensely been "present", caught every single nuance of my expression and words (things that I was only dimly aware of), and sort of gently (without poking, prodding or doing a bull-in-the-china-shop kinda thing) got me to go in deeper into whatever I was expressing without my freaking out (because suddenly it felt safe to do so), that I have felt like she "held" me in a way that I didn't feel like I'd go into a free-fall / lose myself or my mind if I let go and said / expressed whatever I wanted to.

Same here. Sounded like absolute rubbish until I personally experienced it.

I don't know - Safety? Sort of like the absence of some negative emotional state (feeling unsafe, uncomfortable, exposed) That I was so used to feeling I'd taken it for granted as normal.

Mostly I remember thinking it was odd that "held" seemed apt, since I'd never particularly liked being physically held.

Yes, I agree with this. That "held" just seems the correct term for the interaction/moment in time.

I haven't made it through all four pages yet, but if you haven't, could you share the link to that podcast? Sounds interesting.

I usually think my T hears me, and sometimes she'll actually say it. But I don't understand at all what it means to "feel held." How DOES that feel?

https://psychologyinseattle.squarespace.com

I've felt 'held' by him. Overall, it was a feeling of being loved. I felt soothed, protected, safe, cared about....a state of contentment.

(This was a few years ago. I described when and how I felt held to him and told him how good it felt for me and why, so he quit doing it.)

From stopdog's link:
"The holding may or may not involve actual physical holding; otherwise, with emotional holding the client’s anxiety, alarm, confusion, distress, and pain are all managed safely by the therapist. In such a holding (and appropriately safe and boundaried) environment, the therapist is consistently there as an attuned, solid, reliable, trustworthy presence."

This isn't what I was originally thinking when talking about feeling held, but going with this definition, this is a pretty constant in my sessions. But what's strange is my T has never used the word holding or told me she was trying to make me feel held, or ever implied that.

Once, mine said that he really wished he could hold me (I was kind of falling apart at the time). I asked if he'd hold the little stuffed chameleon I bring with me to sessions, which he took. I said "you can't hold me, but you can hold the chameleon." I felt held, honestly.

Even last session, when he told me he allows hugs and told me he felt a desire to hug me after our tough session, and I told him I wasn't there yet.... just his having said it crossed his mind made me feel held.

Funnily enough, I think I feel held by this therapist more often than I ever felt held by the last one who actually held me.

I also have felt more heard by this therapist than any before. He has noticed and reacted to some of the not-so-obvious but somehow most difficult parts of my trauma stories. I'll never forget the first time he reacted to a bit that nobody ever seems to care about but that is one of the hardest parts for me. It surprised me that he reacted, but I felt so heard and connected in that moment that it's really really stuck with me and built my trust.

When I was with my last T, I felt heard a lot of the time. Not always. Now that I'm no longer in therapy and we have become friends/acquaintances, I realize she didn't understand me as well as I thought she did. Like, she was nice enough to get me a present for a special occasion-- which I appreciate it-- but it's literally something I talked about disliking on multiple occasions when she was my T. It really threw me for a loop. That's just one of many examples. I care about her and she cares about me, but I don't think we understand each other as well as I thought we did when I was in therapy with her. It's a bit disappointing, but it's probably a common occurance. I think she's very good at being supportive in the moment-- but maybe she forgets things right afterwards? Or is the kind of person who is very in the moment and is totally connected when she's there, but then gets equally enmeshed in the next thing, and things don't really stay with her over time?

I don't like or understand the idea of feeling held. It kind of grosses me out. Not for me.

I asked Info about “being held” tonight. I tuned out halfway through her answer (because she started off talking about mirror neurons and got sidetracked) but she said something about how “being held” meant there was an emotional connection.

I notice it more after it has happened. For me it gives me the same feeling that I get after cuddling with my spouse. Oxytocin dump, probably. I don't think it's something my therapist does to or at me because it wouldn't work like that. It's more about a really intense connection in the moment. I honestly found it kind of disconcerting the first few times it happened. I told my T later that it was like her weird parlor trick, holding from across the room without touching. I think she was kind of offended. But it keeps happening, and eventually I decided to just go with it. I'm not sure how I would stop it anyway. It feels good, and she seems to think it's healthy and normal.

Good god. Did she say why such a thing would be useful to a client?

Something like many clients don’t or didn’t have that connection in other relationships in their lives. So I guess the therapist pinch-hits.

Why is it useful anywhere? Those guys are so full of themselves. Arrogant bastards.
I would not do such a thing with a therapist.
It never happened to me.

I dont get why it is so hard to understand. Its like going to a restaurant. They cook, you eat. So what? No, not every meal is going to be like this one. Does that mean you should only eat garbage your whole life? Really not getting what people are not getting.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

From reading this forum, I think many people like/crave an emotional connection with their Ts and get quite upset when the imposed or perceived emotional bond is withdrawn. I think some people don't need/want/care about this and others do.

Wanting it or not wanting is it different from whether one finds it there or not