Do/did you feel/think the therapist heard you or did you feel held by the therapist?

These phrases sound like more psychobabble to me, something coming from some therapy textbook that therapists are supposed to say or something. There was a reason I ended up working with therapists who didn't engage in that kind of diction with me. I would have rolled my eyes at them.

What I was aware of is that they were solid listeners. Because we were able to have conversations about and make connections between different things I said, I was aware they were very engaged in what I was saying -- they didn't tune me out. I have no idea what the feeling "held" thing pertains to. I suppose it again pertains to the level of engagement I experienced. ? . ?

The mirror neurons thing is a Daniel Siegel-ish concept from what I (very vaguely) recall and yeah, current T totally subscribes to it (has given talks about it and so on).

Former T (with who I had little of the warm fuzzies) would periodically give me a rather solidly rooted-in-biology type description of why this matters while growing up (evolutionary biology, Harley monkey experiments etc) and what happens if one doesn't get it and so on (however, neither she nor I had any hope or ability to attempt to fix that in session).

Yes, it is. To me it sounds like most people who want it either don't find it and then the T does not feel like a good fit, or fluctuate between feeling that connection and losing it, often repeatedly, when the T changes boundaries and such. So many discussions about it on this forum, I think most of those types of threads are initiated because people feel frustrated about not being sure about the care/connection, losing it, wanting more, or being fed up with attachment etc but not being able to shake it even when the T is clearly not helpful or straight depriving/abusive.

I have no idea what's a good statistic on finding it or not as the discussed cases are likely to be on the negative side mostly, much fewer really satisfied people talk about it (here and in general). I have some friends who state they are very or mostly happy with their therapy/therapists in this area, but knowing them personally, they don't tend to be ones that crave this holding-type connection in any big way, and they can move on or not ruminate over it too much. Or see lolagrace's posts on the forum, if I interpret them correctly. This is how the levels of wanting and getting are related, IMO.

I do not believe that therapy or a therapist is able to provide intense/stable emotional connection in ways that can truly substitute serious deprivations, yet some Ts claim it and keep clients in therapy on this basis. A safe place to talk about the deprivations and whatever can be, but that does not equal to the actual emotional connection in my mind. In an ideal case, for people who struggle in this department, therapy is supposed to take them to a stage where they are able to satisfy the needs in everyday life but instead, too often it gets stuck in clinging to the holding aspect of therapy but never feeling of really finding satisfyingly.

ETA: The mirror neurons thing is an area that is being researched in relation to how empathy works, or general social interaction, for example. Psychologists implicate them in the mechanism of transference, but that is hard to look at, let alone prove, experimentally.

I think it's rather normal that people who do look at therapy as primarily relationship-based, end up wondering if the therapist cares about them or not or get thrown off by the therapist changing boundaries.

So, I don't find anything strange about people starting up threads related to it or their therapists changing boundaries etc.

I'd be hard pressed to imagine that the same (sorts of) folks don't do that about other relationships in their lives as well -- we just don't see that because it's a Psychotherapy forum.

And, conversely people who tend to not worry too much about the connection to the therapist are also unlikely to fret (at least to the same degree and in the same manner as the first type of people) about other connections in their lives.

Then there's the question of self-selection in terms of the sorts of people (including therapists) that the first vs. second type of people get involved with.

All of that to say I don't think there's anything strange or pathological about people wanting to know or getting anxious about whether or not their therapist cares about them -- patterns get repeated in and out of therapy and people's lives.

The construct of 'This is therapy vs. this is real life' isn't one that can work well for everyone all around -- for folks who are focused on the therapy relationship itself (and I don't see anything wrong with that and nor do I consider it an inferior choice), that makes little sense.

And, as has happened many a time in the past, they'd find it equally bizarre that someone can go to therapy without looking at the relationship with the therapist.

The question was fairly simple I thought and had nothing to do with right or wrong.

Do/did you feel/think the therapist heard you or did you feel held (NOT physically) by the therapist?

I tried two - one never heard/understood me at all and the second one at least was able to act more like she did. The holding thing is a mystery to me altogether. And explanations are, to me, like when someone tries to explain why they believe in god or follow a religion. It is fine with me that they do -but I simply do not understand it or the language used around it. I do not understand how it is useful or comforting. Faith is a mystery to me whether in regards to therapy or religion.

Well, i stick by my answer. Its about whether or not someone is able to give themselves over to the experience, quite similarly to eating a meal prepared by someone else. For example:

It usually was not fun eating with my mother. At a restaurant or wedding, she would criticize every dm course. How in the world do you criticize chicken noodle soup?! She simply refused to cede control. Her relationship with the soup and therefore the cook was antagonistic. My relationship, OTOH, same soup, was one of feeling nourished and warmed; of being held. Thats why "the relationship" is so important in t. This might also explain why my main relationship is with food, not people.

So then you do feel heard and held by the therapist?

I think Una is onto something with the idea of allowing yourself to be open to the experience. There is something in there that is related to trust and vulnerability too. The chef is offering me a thing and sure I'm paying for it, but can I allow myself to truly enjoy the experience? Do I trust that the chef followed food safety guidelines? Can I allow myself to believe that the chef prepared this meal -- a meal s/he will never eat and is solely intended for my enjoyment -- truly wanting it to be delicious and satisfying? What if I'm really getting something satisfying from it and other people at the table say the food here is garbage and the whole concept of restaurants is a scam because you can cook at home for less money? Does that diminish this pleasant and powerful experience I'm having? Can I still let it change me on the molecular level?

The holding thing is maybe about giving youself over to the moment and the relationship without the nagging voice that says this is all nonsense and you aren't worth it anyway. That's my best guess at least. For me it's something that happens outside the level of conscious understanding. Maybe stopdog is right that that's what religion feels like to the faithful.

"Can I still let it change me on the molecular level?"

Oh my god - NO. That is truly horrifying to me. I never hired a therapist to "change me" at all and certainly not at a molecular level.
I may have to go breathe into a paper bag at this idea. The stuff of nightmares for me. And if that is what the woman was trying to do at me - all I can say is thank any deity you choose that I fended it off.

The last exchange with the woman I had was
SD "Why do you treat clients like they are idiots?"
W: "I don't believe anything I say is magic"

And that is one example of every time I let the woman speak she failed to understand or answer. So no - I was never heard by her. And the holding thing I just do not want. No matter how magical and warm and so forth others find it - I do not want it from a therapist.

I mean, life is a rich tapestry, right? I'm happy to change, which is maybe my point. The way I have been living up to this point is not sustainable. If it's either suicide or the abstract possibility of something else that could mean staying alive, then I'll happily take whatever is behind Door #2.

Actually ive been having fantasies of eating during sessions. Hmm...

I wonder - i am such a hermit, if i should even be participating in these threads.

I am not anti-change - but I will choose the changes - not any hired therapist. And for me - Door #2 is not better. But I did not go for that sort of reason and for me it was not any port in a storm was better than the storm.

For me, it's more collaborative than just letting my therapist do whatever she wants to me and to my life. To torture Una's metaphor, my T presents the menu and I decide which items appeal the most and we get started on that. The point, though, is that my T is showing me that there are other possibilities. When my mom cooked for me at home, there was one option, it was unpalatable to me, and I got blamed for being sick after I ate it. I like T's restaurant better. I don't know if my T can undo what was done, but I do know for sure that I feel better when I go there. And I think eventually I'll be able to cook healthy things for myself. (Therapy as cooking school...? Nope, that's it, the metaphor is officially dead.)

Yes. Every time I see my therapist, he emotionally holds me. He says "Awww, you must feel terrible." He frowns. He tears up. We have a strong emotional bond.

The relationship between my T and I is unique. He gets mad at me, and I get mad at him. I tell him he offends me with certain things he says, and he is honest with me too. I've told my therapist I want to know how he feels if he expects me to express how I feel. Last session, I told him he is only allowed in my head if he allows me to enter his.

Further evidence that backs up my feeling 'held' by R from this week, in our first session following my first anxiety attack. I had intended to speak about the experience as much as possible. I got a couple of sentences in, then started shaking, and handed her the printout of my notes on the experience.

'Oh, Lost...'

Full comprehension of how hard that experience was, and later admission of a physical response when I explained what had happened. If that isn't being held, I don't know what is.

To me if using the food thing -it is like me needing a lug wrench and them advertising lug wrenches -but when I get there all they offer or sell is soup. No matter what about the soup-it still is not a lug wrench

Well you finally said something *i* understand.

Yes I feel utterly heard, my T is a great listener and really hears what I say. Being held is a strange concept and my T never talks about stuff like that, but if it is an emotional contact and feeling of being safely heard and accepted then yes.

I find sessions with Info to be wonderful appetite suppressors. Like last night I went in hungry because no lunch and thought I would stop for dinner on the way home, but left so confused I just drove around randomly.

The restaurant metaphor...insofar as I understand it, okay, but if I want Italian, the therapist probably shouldn’t push fusion on me, or sneak in some fusion in a big bowl of risotto.

Yes and yes.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in our philosophy."

the second one I saw was better at appearing as though she understood what I was talking about.

“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”

---"Well...aren't you going to change into your costume?"

---"I never change out of it, sir."

Rosencrantz:
I don't believe in it anyway.

Guildenstern:
What

Rosencrantz:
England

Guildenstern:
Just a conspiracy of cartographers then.

Yes, over the years I have felt heard and held by my therapist many times. That has been the best and most efficient part of my therapy.

My T says that when we do imagery exercises, she's "holding" me. I definitely don't feel that, although I notice her voice changes to be warmer, she tries to sound gentler, she leans in etc. A technique taught in psychotherapy and counselling books.

I do feel heard by her sometimes. She doesn't just parrot what I say, but tries to reword it to check if her understanding is correct. That's also a counseling and psychotherapy technique.