Emailed T that I found her bf

You're not a bad person for not knowing boundaries. I'm really bad at them too. A lot of us are.

You're also not a bad person for being curious about your T's personal life.

However, your behaviour of not respecting your T's boundaries is an issue which will not endear you to your T.

My issue is my expression of anger towards my T via text. She tells me it's not my anger that's an issue, but how I express it towards her. She says it pushes her away, hurts her, she feels wronged, it elicits frustration in her and does not encourage the connectedness I seek.

And yet do I stop? I'm trying to, and I struggle a lot with stopping this behavior. Perhaps similarly to how you keep asking T even though she makes it clear she doesn't want to tell you?

It's definitely not easy. I mean this as kindly as possible.

My parents invade my fledging boundaries and I was not allowed to have boundaries growing up. It feels...violating...and not closeness-inducing when I set a boundary and a parent gets upset / angry with me for not wanting to tell them personal things. It also feels icky when a sibling goes all "why can't you tell me? Tell meeee!" or otherwise is persistent when I've already said no.

I don't even tell my closest friends and my own therapist what my partner's name is. Because I'm a really private person. It's not because I don't trust them, but because I'm a private person and my partner doesn't even want me going around telling friends his name because he's not comfortable...and I want to respect his wish.

Regarding finding out things and then telling her, maybe try to postpone by 5 minutes every time you're tempted to look her up?

i can haz theery?

Do you think a part of you wants her to terminate You? Then the money will no longer be such an issue? No judgement at all. I search my T also but I was curious about you statent that if she doesn't like it she can terminate ypu

I'm not necessarily agreeing that part of you wants to terminate...but could this be part of the testing? I'm just thinking how recently I was open with my MC about love feelings (not the first time). He said it was OK I felt that way. And then shortly after that, we had a conflict, and I was pretty critical of him and expressed some anger (during a phone call), which I'm usually bad at doing. He ultimately said we had to reduce outside contact (later confirming that he wasn't rejecting me, that I could still contact him some).

Anyway, here's how this relates to you: I'm wondering if part of me, first with the love declarations, then with expressing criticism and anger, was trying to test him on another level. Like almost daring him to reject me, in a sense. In some ways, I'm tired of dealing with the transference, so maybe I just want it to be done--and MC rejecting me is one way of eliminating it. Or if we had some big conflict where I felt like he wasn't the T or person I thought he was...that could serve to reduce or end it, too.

So...I wonder if, in your case, part of you is frustrated or tired with feeling certain ways about your T, and you're looking for ways to "blow it up," in a sense? It maybe be completely subconscious. Like you're just not sure how to deal with it anymore, and are trying different things? Not sure if this makes any sense...and I'm not saying this in any way as a criticism of you, because I'm wondering if I could be doing the same thing...just something to think about.

Hi Rainbow! I want to jump in here and give you a hug (huggg!) and say I think everything is going to be okay. Your therapist has been with you a really long time and cares deeply about you, and looking up a name or picture really isn't going to be the thing that breaks the camel's back. It will probably be good to have more discussions about it with your T but I really think it is going to be okay.
People here tell you what they think but they don't even come close to giving up on you either. They keep responding here kindly and truthfully because you are a part of the community and you matter. Just like you matter and you are a part of the community with your T.
Just remember we are all here because we all have stuff we suck at. Don't sweat it.

This.

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agreed as well!

I'm not sure this is about not knowing boundaries. I think when one is unaware of Something, They don't spend as much time as you thinking about what you say you've done. And as someone pointed out, you're aware of what you will let be known about yourself.
I wonder if it's to do with the responses you think this topic will bring you. Hence you're not feeling left out here.
I think you know it would be a hot topic. You don't seem to really engage with any solutions on here or with T.
I think you've found a hot topic and go with it over and over.

I don't think you're a bad person but I do think it's a tiny bit manipulative to proclaim yourself to be, because that just seems designed (or you know it produces) a social response to assure you that you are not.

From your threads it seems that it is a theme in your life that you don't have the kind of relationships that you want, and it may be that the issues between you and your T are about those broader issues. The current thing, I have no trouble with people googling other people including their T's, but telling a person that you know something she has declined to tell you is a whole other thing. That's like throwing it in her face that you got for yourself what she refused to give you, like a child who's refused a cookie and who climbs up the cabinets to eat them all for herself. Except more personal than that.

Being intrusive in someone's life feels bad all around, I think. Having someone be intrusive to the person who wants some privacy is exhausting and creates the opposite effect of wanting to push the other person away. So it seems (which I think is true for many of us with certain issues) that we want to feel closer to the person, but the behavior we engage in is self defeating in the sense that it is unlikely to produce what we want. And the more we want the thing we're after, the less likely it is that we will be thoughtful about what we're doing and engage in the kind of obsessive and auto pilot behavior.

But obviously this is working for you in some way, and maybe looking at how this rinse and repeat cycle benefits you will move you in another direction. Look at the effect, whether it's here on the board, as Mouse suggested, or in your relationship with your T. It probably felt good to hear from her that your relationship is not ruined, "she still loves me."

But what if you widen your focus to your real life relationships? Can you see this intrusive-push away pattern with your adult children or your friends? That is where the real benefit of this exercise will be. Learning to be more mindful in how you choose to relate to people can completely change your life.

I think this constant obsession with your therapist and her life (because that's what it is: an obsession) is a distraction. A distraction from your loneliness, from the regrets you seem to have about your life. The energy and time you pour into this could be focused onto something else: a new hobby, new friends, travelling, etc. You life isn't over, you can still do a lot of things even if you think you are old (I don't remember if you have ever said how old you were). I'm mentioning the distraction aspect because it was definitely like that for me with my ex therapist. I don't subscribe to this idea that everything has something to do with our childhood and that somehow every single one of our actions is because something happened when we were 3 years old or because our mother didn't kiss us enough or whatever.

What strikes me Rainbow, is your reply to Unaluna upthread that your parents were loving and not mean. Oh geez. What a dichotomy. Is that something you've explored?

Most loving parents were mean at times or about certain things, and most parents who were often mean were also sometimes loving. I realize that this isn't the primary topic of the thread but unpacking the complexity of this strikes me as fundamental to understanding boundaries.

Because in order to understand the boundaries of those we like, love and are close to, we have to see them as complex human beings with minds and preferences of their own. Otherwise we will perceive every boundary as a personal rejection rather than a way to honour the uniqueness, the personal preferences of the person we love.

To be sure, we don't have to love people to respect their boundaries, nor we have to understand their reasons for having them. But in close relationships, especially for children, it helps to understand why we have boundaries and that it is not a question of being loved enough.

When I teach my children to knock on a closed door before opening it, I hope to convey to them that the person on the other side of the door has a right to privacy. I am not saying that if we all loved each other more, they could just barge in whenever.

What a good point. Because if i did something my mother didnt want me to do, like be myself, then i was both being mean to her and not loving her, according to her. If i wasnt an open book. Not that she could even read what was written there.

I agree that this is a good point--my parents were loving, but didn't give me what I needed emotionally. Like didn't accept me as how I was, didn't give me support I needed for my mental health issues (OCD and anxiety, then later depression). My ex-T has said that my mom just wasn't a good fit for me.

So it's not really loving vs. mean or good parent vs. bad parent. It's how your parents were for you. They may have parented in the best way they knew how, but it could have been all wrong for you.

My mother does this to me- finding out personal things and "busting" me that she "knows". She does it to my siblings too. She doesnt do it for a bad reason, but bc she wants more intimacy. It is self defeating though, bc when she does it I fear her, feel invaded, and humor her at best while suppressing real anger. I then create distance, then the cycle goes on. I quickly recognize in myself a desire to replicate that behavior with my T when he was a blank slate. I wanted to google him, and tell him things I found, "bust him". His initial refusing to tell normal things seemed controlling, and finding out seemed like balancing the power. I never did tell him though, bc the epiphany happened first that I was playing the role of my mom. The whole thing was a valuable lesson on the distancing that comes with busting someone with their own personal info. The quick rush of power isnt worth the long term damage.

Rainbow- hugs to you.
This sounds really painful for you. It took courage to even start this thread and I’m proud of you for exploring these issues in your life.

Maybe it will help you to know I relate to your posts in many different layers.
I have done many of the things you have done.

I have googled PrevT and and T ...and I see nothing wrong with that. In my case, I think it would be odd if I didn’t try to know who they are, how they are perceived in the world, if I can trust them, if they are who I ‘think’ they are. Your posts have given me much to talk to T about I won’t detail here.

When I googled PrevT (back in the ‘90’s when info might not have been as secure) I wasn’t looking for anything particular, just anything. I accidentally found information about legal trusts in her family..(for instance)..like you found her bf name. I actually printed it out and took it to therapy. I told PrevT about it and handed it to her. Part of it was concern I found it, pride that I found it, and there has always been an aspect of me wanting to feel special to PrevT and T.

I found and have driven by PrevT’s house. There exists the dichotomy of me feeling special like part of her family but realizing I am not. I have expressed before the home sickness feeling of having finally finding my ‘mother’ but not allowed in her house. I actually took a friend (who has a criminal history) by her house. I was just proud of her and wanted my friend to see her ‘castle.’ I was oblivious to what I had done until I told PrevT and she gasped, *MY NAME!* duhme! At least I ‘got it’ as soon as she said it.

She didn’t terminate me over any of these things (which may have been worse than things you have done). She helped create a boundary for me. She said I was allowed to drive by but not be on her property. It’s incredible and I’m sorry she had to say it. I hadn’t intended to get out of the car. I never meant to worry her.

There was also an element of, ‘You won’t tell me? I’ll find out anyway..’

PrevT tried to explain to me that no matter how much she gave to me, it was never enough. It hasn’t been until these past few years I have realized...
That’s how big the ‘hole’ is.

.I am not a bad person...sometimes I am unwise, don’t see the consequences..

I have googled T. I know where she lives. I found it on GoogleEarth. I’m not going to drive by. So, I have changed, some.

You are not a bad person, either. There is a reason for your neediness (if that’s what it is)...or feeling of exclusion. I have rejection issues, too.

I hope my telling you all of this is helpful.
You are very brave. You are not alone.

Do you feel like there is a ‘needy hole,’ too?

esme

And pre

Thanks, unaluna. I DO need the relationship with T first.

Thank you. My T hasn't minded the googling. She used to ask me what I found out. So I think you're right. She specifically didn't want to tell me her bf's last name. Part of that is she KNEW I would look for more information and she knows doing that usually makes me feel bad about myself. I'm not sure if she cares what I found because it's all professional stuff about him, nothing personal. But that's not your point. It IS hard for me to respect people's boundaries and if that was her boundary, I should have stopped with noticing his name. I shouldn't have googled her family in the first place because I was searching for personal information. I just couldn't stand it when she said she's not going to tell me what's wrong.

You're right! T and I discussed that once. I would NOT want anyone on here to go snooping about me, so I'm not really the opposite. I meant that I'm pretty open about my life to my family and friends though some friends aren't to me. One didn't want to me her age and I found it online. She is a very private person and she got very angry with me for looking. I didn't tell her I found it. Eventually she did tell me her age. I have a problem. I admit it.

Thank you. I was thinking about telling her I have the urge to google and not doing it but it's been so long, and everyone googles, so....... I DID hold back from going on Facebook because I knew I'd find more personal information about T's family. So do I get partial credit? I've felt so lousy physically that I haven't done much of anything lately. I'm too tired and achy all the time.

It bothers me that I am not sorry I found out about T's bf, because I feel happy that she found someone like him. I don't know if that's transference for wanting to be her child, and I like the "Daddy", or if I'm truly happy for her. Probably both.

Thank you. I don't think you've said anything wrong to me. I'm in distress because I don't know how to stop myself when I really want to find out information. I didn't google or go on FB to look up T or her family for about 2 years, since the time I pestered her about her bf's name. I don't know what to do because, yes, it's just feelings, and I don't have to act, but I want to know about T. I don't think that's going to change...when I'm triggered. About a month ago, when we were focusing on my being present with her, I told her that when we connect that way, I don't need to know more about her. But then came the "distracting" session, and her trip getting cancelled, and me getting triggered to know why.

Thank you. I am embarrassed to say that T and I did work on this the other times it happened, but it apparently wasn't enough. I don't think you were reading or posting on PC when I had threads about my driving past T's house, and her telling me that was crossing boundaries because I didn't have permission, and that I didn't realize it would affect her. She told me she was scared! She didn't know me too well then. I promised I'd never do it again (this was the second time because she lived in a different location) and I didn't after that. She knows that people Google and didn't seem to mind except that it made me feel upset with what I found. It's different when she didn't want to tell me her bf's last name. She said she likes to keep her private life separate from work. So I messed up again. I hope discussing it again will be more productive. But if people keep things from me, it makes me want MORE to find it out myself, and makes me more angry and hurt. So I'll tell that to T again.

Thank you. Your reply is interesting because I would be upset if I were your friend and you wouldn't tell me your partner's name. This is a good example because I don't even know you, and I feel triggered. I can see how deep my issue is. I can also understand how your texting and my persistence with T will not bring about the close connection I want with her. I've been doing fine for a long time now because nothing came up in her personal life. But now something has. I haven't had the urge to Google her in a about 2 years but now I do again. It's like going back to square 1, except I won't go on FB because that hurts me too much.

I don't know why I typed that. Maybe a part of me does want to quit therapy, but most parts can't bear to think of her not being in my life anymore. I wish she were my friend, not my T.

I'm not sure, but maybe there's something to what you're saying. I don't know if my T is worth $165/hour but I feel safe and comfortable when I'm with her in her office. I don't want to be without her as my T. We've gone through too much together.

Aw, you're so sweet, Amyjay. I appreciate what you wrote very much. Thank you. to you too.

I think you're partially correct so I'm not going to get defensive. Well, maybe a little. You don't know me, so you don't know if I engage with any solutions here or with T. I start a lot of threads about my therapy, hot topics or not. I admit I like the attention, but that's not my main reason for starting threads. I want to interact with those who understand and feel it's safe to do so here. NOT because it's a hot topic. You don't have to believe me but that's the truth.

I admit I was feeling sorry for myself, and wanted to hear that I'm not a bad person. So what's wrong with that? You're correct about the effects of crossing T's boundaries. It has the opposite effect of what I want. I don't think I cross my family and friend's boundaries because they don't let me. It's more complicated with family. They leave me out and it hurts like with T, or vise versa, I should say. Except for one friend who drives me nuts with her privacy, I have to accept that my kids don't share much with me. I'm not sure if it's because I'm intrusive. Some is because they don't want to worry me. I feel hurt when a close friend doesn't even tell me she's going on vacation ahead of time. Things like that. I think because she knows I get jealous and I worry. It's not so simple.

I think you're right except that I haven't focused on my T and excluded other things in my life. I've spent a lot of time on painting pictures and cleaning up the mess in my house from many years of clutter piling up. I have a lot of friends. I'm afraid to travel right now because of medical issues. I do have regrets about my life though. Some people age quicker. I'm not that old but I feel like I am because I can't do what I used to do and I'm exhausted. I can't even go swimming now but I hope I will be able to again in the future. It's no fun right now. I have some new responsibilities that are pleasurable but stressful.

What I bolded is a problem for me. Thanks for writing it. I think I do see every boundary as a personal rejection! You hit the nail on the head!!! I need to stop thinking that way!

I haven't explored anything about my parents being loving and not mean. T knows they loved me very much. Why should they be mean?

Yes, my Ts have all said the fit between my mom and me as in infant must have been wrong for me. They loved me but didn't give me what I needed. That doesn't mean they were mean, though.

Thank you! Your post is very powerful and I will think about it. I think I do it for more intimacy too. I equate people not telling me things with them shutting me out, not liking or loving me, purposely leaving me out of their lives. I don't remember this from childhood, or maybe it's the passing notes in school but not ever to me. In college, finding a note my roommates wrote about something they were planning and it said (obviously I found it, in the waste basket), "Don't tell 'rainbow". I have a history of feeling left out but not by my parents.

Wow! I can't believe we're so much alike in the things we have done regarding our Ts! You wrote that you showed your T because of concern, pride, and wanting to be special. Me too!

Driving past T's house, telling her, and not understanding that she didn't like it and was actually scared! I wouldn't have gotten out either. She kept saying 'what if I had been out walking my dog?" I didn't understand that, and said "so what?" I wanted to be part of her life and it is the most difficult thing for me to realize that she doesn't want me to be!

I also feel like "you won't tell me; I'll find out myself!! I happen to be an excellent researcher but had to give up on finding T's bf when I was searching the first time. I didn't need to find it anymore, and now that I did, accidentally, it doesn't even mean the same thing to me. Maybe because there wasn't any thrill to the search? It was just there, right in front of my eyes!

There must be a hole or I wouldn't feel this way. I wouldn't be diagnosed with BPD. I wouldn't want to see T after T for many years. I don't know what it was in my life except the guesses Ts have made. It is what it is. I always want more too. I like that T signs her emails "love, T" and is there for me most of the time. I did notice she didn't sign this latest one where she said I didn't destroy our relationship with "love". I think she was in a hurry. I know she'll won't stop giving me "therapy love" which to her means a form of real love. She knows I need it.

Thanks so much for your post to me.

Going along w what SalingerEsme wrote-my mother spent years constantly trying to know more about my life than what I was willing to give her. All it did was have me push her farther away and resent and dread phone calls and visits w her. It took her a long time (and therapy), but she finally accepted that she has to meet me where I am at and be okay with it, even if she wishes it were different. I still don’t tell her much about my life personally, but our relationship is much better. I don’t live in constant dread that she is going to get upset bc I don’t tell her certain things, and we are able to be relaxed around each other.

"Originally Posted by stopdog View Post
I did not say you are a bad person. I would think you could change if you wanted to do so. I did not even say you should change - that is up to you. I think changing your behavior might make it easier for you in the long run. There is a separation between feeling and acting on that feeling. So you can feel sad or left out but not act in a way that is not conducive to respecting another's boundaries. Feeling and Acting are separate.
Again -googling and finding out stuff about a therapist is not a big deal in my opinion. It is all the other stuff around doing it that I find (I am not saying the therapist does) off-putting and the exact opposite of treating the therapist like you respect her or find the relationship special.
Thank you. My T hasn't minded the googling. She used to ask me what I found out. So I think you're right. She specifically didn't want to tell me her bf's last name. Part of that is she KNEW I would look for more information and she knows doing that usually makes me feel bad about myself. I'm not sure if she cares what I found because it's all professional stuff about him, nothing personal. But that's not your point. It IS hard for me to respect people's boundaries and if that was her boundary, I should have stopped with noticing his name. I shouldn't have googled her family in the first place because I was searching for personal information. I just couldn't stand it when she said she's not going to tell me what's wrong. "

The googling is not the point I was making. In my view of things, one can stand things - one usually chooses not to do so. But my point was not about looking up info.
I wish you luck with it. It does not seem to be making you happy and I hope you can figure out a way to make your life look more like you want it to.

I'm a-okay with your internet sleuthing. It's the have to run to your therapist and confess. To me it's more like "Ha, ha, ha, ha, I know your secret." Then you come to PC and tell the whole class her secret behind her back.

Once when was on vacation with family I was very upset and walked out. I was in a strange city and very suicidal at the time. I called my therapist to let her know I was done. Through my pain I could sense her angst, and feel her pain, but it should not have mattered because we agreed that suicide was always an option for me. It did matter because I cared about her. I was able to tell her I would get myself safe and head home ASAP. The phone call shook her up enough that she called another therapist to help her with her feelings. We discussed the phone call when I returned and she said her colleague calmed her by telling her thatAesB was able to consider how she felt to base my decision not to end it all. He was basically saying, "It was not all about her, she considered your feelings about what she was doing and how it would affect you (the therapist). Those words gave her comfort. And for me, suicidal thoughts that were present 24/7 for decades never haunted me again.

Your relationship with your therapist is special and hopefully you will continue to strive to keep it that way. If she does not know you are googling she willnot be affected. It's when you throw it in her face. Yes, I know it is quilt, but maybe if you see it as "not nice" like you have taught your children and your grandchildren good manners. If your children have boundaries where did they get them? Surely, not just your husband.

By the way, I don't see you as a bad person at all. You have a very likable online presence. You like many of us are just trying to figure out the junk life as thrown in your path.

You once said your father and you had a strained/estranged relationship when your mom passed or maybe when he remarried.I don't believe this would have happened if he had unconditional love for you like you remember it. My opinion only. Maybe you can explore this need to know in relation to the more recent relationship with him.

About your session fee, you have chosen to cut of your nose to spite you face. Don't do that to yourself. Your therapist was perfectly fine with what you paid her. Go back to the hundred that you were trying to get used to, but you were in the mist of a tantrum with her. I think your therapist will understand.

You and your therapist do a lot of meaningful work together and you hang in there. Too me you are a strong woman on an amazing journey.

To answer your question, it's not that I think that your parents were mean or didn't love you, it that nobody's relationship with their parents is as simple as "they were loving and not mean." I think that kind of black and white thinking might be part of what is difficult for you. It is very difficult for me to imagine that someone who struggles so mightily with boundaries grew up in a household where reasonably healthy boundaries were modeled, enforced and respected most of the time.

So you know, where does it all come from?

I grew up in a home where I was loved and cherished in many ways. But I was not allowed to say no to certain things, and being agreeable and cooperative was valued very highly. I also have a quieter temperament and don't enjoy fighting. So it has been very hard for me to learn how to say no, to not smooth over other people's appalling behaviour in order to keep the peace, to advocate for myself, to feel that I am allowed to have preferences and gut feelings without having to justify and defend them.

What was your template for boundaries? What happened (or didn't happen) for you that makes it hard not just to respect your T's boundaries but to understand why she has them at all? The fact that your family of origin may have had difficulty in this area doesn't make your parents bad or unloving people, it makes them ordinary, loving but flawed humans who have left you with the task of figuring this out.

Rainbow wrote.....
I haven't explored anything about my parents being loving and not mean. T knows they loved me very much. Why should they be mean?

Exploring our past isn't just because sometime was mean.
What type of therapy are you in? The your past in 7yrs hasn't been explored has floored me.