T said "you don't pay your friends to talk to them"

I think if someone is frustrated with another poster - it is their own problem. People change at their own rate and sometimes keep doing the same thing until they figure out how or even why - when they have what is to them a good reason to stop. Just because someone does not change in the time frame for others does not make it wrong. I think if some one gets frustrated, perhaps walking away or reading another thread is a better plan than fussing at or blaming the person who one finds frustrating.

For the record I'm not at all. I've been there big-time.

Not to hijack the thread but this is really interesting to hear about. So many people seem to want to be friends with their T after therapy it's good to hear a first-hand response. For many, the idea of being friends with a T seems much better than the reality of it. I try to remind myself as much as I sometimes think that I would like some sort of friendship with my T, in reality, it would likely never work for us exactly because of the reasons you have mentioned. I know there is no way that he could give the same attention to me that he currently gives me in therapy. Good therapists spend a lot of their day listening to others and putting their own needs aside. It only makes sense to me that outside of therapy their own needs rise to the surface perhaps even more so than an average person. Like the rest of us, they must find ways to have their needs met through outside relationships. For some, this likely means that yes they become, more self-absorbed, less attentive etc as you say.

I would like to think though that the empathy, understanding, care, and kindness that my T shows are at the core of who he really is. That yes, in the real world he may be more selfish, less attentive, less consistent, more flawed but underneath it all those traits still hold true.

Did you feel like your T was almost a different person when you became friends with her or did she maintain any of her original traits that you experienced in therapy?

I am certainly not and if other people are then that is their problem and not yours. You are on your own journey and sharing it here with us which is courageous. Places like this allow us to hash out our thoughts and also help others so don't be worrying about frustrating others. If they don't find a particular post or poster frustrating and don't want to be so frustrated they can simply make the choice not to read those posts

Also not frustrated with you, Rainbow. I'm just not sure what to say that will be helpful since I struggle so much with transference, too.

Though it's interesting--with current T, I keep thinking to myself, "He's helping me as a T. That's what I want from him. Not something else (whether romantic, paternal, etc.). Because then he couldn't be my T." And I don't feel like I have the transference for him--though it's only been 4 months or so, and it did take longer for it to develop for MC and ex-T. But he's also much better with boundaries--they're clear and, so far, have been generally consistent. The long, caring e-mail response I got from him recently--I paid for that, so, as he put it, he was responding as part of his job, not out of charity. He tries to keep it more clear that it's a professional relationship rather than a personal one--and that I'm paying for his professional expertise, not to get to know him as a person.

I wonder if part of this is that your T has blurred the lines too much--I know you said recently that she's been less open with you than some other clients because she thought telling you more info could be bad for you. But it still seems she's been fairly open with you about some things. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this might not just be about you, Rainbow, but also about your T and the dynamic between the two of you. Maybe something she is doing is creating these needs and desires. Such as hinting around that something is going on with her family, but not being specific--which I know would make me want to know more. Just some stuff to consider...

Feelings are feelings, not something you choose or can just control at will. You don't seem to act them out in inappropriate ways like stalking the T in physical reality, showing up at her office at times when you don't have an appointment, manipulating her in sneaky ways etc. If discussing this longing over and over is what you want to use your therapy for, there is nothing wrong with it, it is your time, money and energy.

I am also not sure that you are not exploring the longing/transference properly. You have discussed many times even on this forum how it is related to dissatisfaction with your family of origin, people not letting you into their life enough etc. Is there so much more to be learned than what you already know? The thing about transference is that, I think, awareness and analysis on its own rarely makes the feelings go away. Some Ts claim that it does but I think it is simply not true, especially for the intense and stubborn feelings that you are experiencing. If things were so simple, people would not engage in abusive relationships, destructive habits, repetitive distractions while not addressing problems. Kinda ironic, but I think if simply discussing these things over and over and identifying the origins would resolve them, there would not be much need for longer term psychotherapy to begin with.

The thing about real life friendships is definitely that they will never truly fulfill the types of longings that you have about your T. It is a wish, a fantasy in your mind and not how adult friendships work. You already recognize this, I think, when you say that you don't want to crowd your friends, so you manage it in a realistic and respectful manner. I am actually not even sure that transference feelings always stem from old unmet needs, sometimes we had everything realistically possible going for us and we just want more and more and more. And transfer these desires onto many people, things, activities etc. These is a reason why I like to compare these things to addictions, not just because that is what I am familiar with personally. One usually does not engage in excess because we need it or what it seems to provide in the moment, to be healthy and balanced. It is not even always a substitution for a healthier form of fulfillment. Often we just have desires based on fantasies that feed on itself and can be very distracting or even destructive. I think this is where the idea of focusing on stopping a behavior first instead of trying to understand it is very valid, because often there is really nothing to be understood more other than we chase momentary pleasures, real or imagined, often merely anticipated and we find out from doing it that it does not really provide much. This is where voluntary, conscious, forceful stopping the behavior can be the best solution, but it does not always work. You already don't seem to turn your longings into behavior other than bringing it to therapy and to this forum again and again.

I would think that even if you only use your therapy to experience these feelings and talk about them, so that they are not projected into different areas of your everyday life and relationships and cause disruption and destruction, it is a great use for it. I think that some people here (including myself sometimes) react to your posts in a more critical way not because we are frustrated with you, just because you report very similar concerns regularly and in association with frustration and emotional discomfort, so we try to say different things for you to consider/try. But perhaps recognizing and accepting that certain things are just not going to change and learning to live with them (as you alluded to several times) is a better solution, especially if you can contain them (i.e. in therapy). Accepting the out-of-control parts of ourselves and keeping the desires/urges contained is often a much more viable strategy compared with fighting them and condemning them endlessly. It also reminds me of the message in the Serenity Prayer - I am not a religious person and don't really pray, but I really appreciate its wisdom and mature view of reality.

Sorry about this lengthy post, for some reason your posts always inspire a lot of thoughts in me, which is interesting on its own given that your specific interpersonal challenges are not even something I struggled with, but difficult to control desires and intense cravings that can take over all sanity in general is something I know very intimately. I admire your courage to so openly discuss your repetitive challenges, because I don't tend to do it much while they are still ongoing, and for me this pattern of refusing much vulnerability and being affected was pretty much the main reason why therapy never worked for me the same way it does for many others. You and quite a few others who regularly post on this forum have an ability and strength that I personally don't have and find it very hard to develop even knowing full well I have these strong armors that certainly not only protect but get in the way. It is people like yourself who can really use therapy in the ways it is meant to be used. How much and how far is for you to decide, not anyone else.

At first I thought she was very much the same person. Now, I’m not sure if I just got to know her better and see who she really is or if she has changed over the last 2-3 years. The reason therapy ended is because she retired (in her 40s), so she hasn’t practiced in 2-3 years. So she isn’t putting herself “on hold” at work every day, and then her needs seem magnified later. So I’m not sure where the self-absorption comes from. I definitely didn’t experience that from her until we became friends. She also completely lost the ability to “see” me or understand me. Maybe it’s just no longer a priority for her? Honestly, she seems like a different person to me now. Fairly recently, when I had an argument with a family member, I turned to her thinking she would understand my side— and she didn’t. At all. Even though she knew my history (from years of therapy) she just totally got it wrong and then acted really condescendingly towards me. I was pretty taken aback. If she were still my T, I would have told her that and tried to work through it with her. But now, since we are friends but not super close friends, it feels like I’m “not allowed” to really pick apart things she says/does. She just gets frustrated when I try to tell her she “messed up.” She does not take constructive criticism well! If I’m anything other than happy go-lucky, she just seems uninterested or like I’m being a burden. So, really, it’s not worth it. For about 1 1/2 years she felt like a real friend (with obvious flaws), but now she feels more like an acquaintance. Honestly, I think I’m a much better friend to her than she is to me. I’m much more attentive and patient and I genuinely care. I haven’t felt that from her in awhile. It’s pretty disappointing. I understand now why people say you shouldn’t become friends with your former T. I don’t think she did anything unethical and I don’t feel damaged by the friendship. Just disappointed that she isn’t as awesome as I thought she was. She was great at her job but not a great friend. She’s probably the flakiest human I know. In fact, it was much easier to talk things out with my family member and mend fences with him than with my ex-T!

I am not sure that the Ts who engage in friendships (or other kinds of relationships) after the end of therapy really change. Probably it's more that they show many more sides of themselves and engage in ways that are more complex than the highly controlled, actually contrived persona of their professional self. An analogy that comes to mind is meeting people online and having purely virtual friendship with someone. Encounters over the internet are extremely limited and simple compared with the full palette of how someone communicates and behaves in full-blown 3D reality; everything is done using one or a few highly restricted and controlled channels of communication. This is why so many people have had bad experiences with online dating, for example. I think therapy is even more limited given that the image that the T lets on is pretty much a designer "person", infused with all sorts of fantasies and perceptions that have no reality testing. Then when things get more complex and realistic, all kinds of other features surface. I often say that I do not doubt that there are stories in which ex-client/ex-therapist develop a great personal relationship, but these are probably pretty rare cases and situations where the client is no longer looking for the maintenance of the features and attitudes experienced in therapy much, but has an openness to experiencing a lot more and very different things as well. Expanding the relationship to conserve the same attention, tolerance, acceptance and one-sided focus as during therapy is simply unrealistic. I don't think that the T that does not behave the same way in a private relationship as in their work is inconsistent, dishonest or changing - just a regular human like everyone else. So, if an ex-client is willing and want to get into that sort of relationship, a more diverse, complex palette is definitely what will come with it. Otherwise it would not be a personal relationship/friendship.

This is interesting. It must not be nice to have been so disappointed by her true self but I'm glad it hasn't damaged you. I guess it does also reinforce that Ts do sometimes perhaps 'put on a bit' of what they portray. Some probably more so than others. I mean my T is always understanding and empathetic but I'm sure there are times he would really like to say 'Jeez move on already' or 'aaaggHRHRHRHR' lol.
If she retired so early maybe she found she had to 'put it on' too much and just got tired of it all and burnt out.

I do think some people are more themselves at work than others but it's very rare we are all 100% of who we are at work no matter what job we are in. I have a cousin who is in a really high well-paid construction job. He is in charge of various teams of people and lead projects etc. In work, he is clearly very good at his job. As a man though he has so many negative traits that make me wonder how he functions in work. Although he is fun, friendly and nice he is ALWAYS late for everything (for everyone, not just me), goes out drinking a lot and is quite disorganized and forgetful. None of these traits, however, translate to who he is in work.

I think there are better ways for certain Ts to deal with certain subjects. Attachment is very comoon amonv clients. Sad thing to say is that when brought up in session or when T finds out how the T responds is crucial. I guess it’s best for them not to encourage or agree to something that isnt considered ethical. It’s best for them to be upfront. However for those clients that are attached when a T says that they can’t be a friend it can be interpreted as rejection. I guess it’s all on how they approach it and it’s individual to the client on the method used. I know it doesn’t feel good. When I brought my attachment issue to my T she told me to find someone like that in the world. That felt like a slap in the face but she I got got the point.

Stepping away from therapy changes one's perspective, I think.

It seems kind of strange now--
As if it's the therapy that is causing your agony. If you didn't have the therapy, there wouldn't be constant longing for the T and wanting more than the relationship is. Seems like a potential way to distract from life problems.

But attachment is used so broadly here. I can't help but wonder if there are impulse control or OCD issues being reinforced by the therapy. That's what comes to mind when others say you are deriving benefit from the therapy. Somehow the therapy, the conversations about your longings, are reinforcing the cycle.

Even when there is negative feedback, perhaps the cycle is a way your mind came up with to cope with all the guilt resulting from not being able to resist your impulses.

I’m sorry that you are still struggling. I try to read PC when time allows and I am never frustrated by your posts.

I see the friend issue with your therapist as a standin for the issues with your parent/s. For me, it was having to mourn what I thought I wanted from my therapist; for her to make me perfect so my family could fill my unmet needs. The things is I did not know I had them. I had loving and caring parents. But it was in the ways they showed them that did not suit my needs. Contrary to most people that post here my therapist believes those needs do need to be met in someway or another to heal and therapy not being the only way, but I was able to get those needs met with her. I remember telling her in absolute terror that she was destroying me by asking me to give up my parents. She wasn’t. My therapist only wanted me to give up the Fantasy” that I maintained them to be. She wanted me to let go of the facade. I think I was afraid that if I did it would leave me empty. Givng up that facade was the most difficult thing I ever did in my 50 plus years, but I was then able to finally see shades of grey in all parts of my life; friends, family, parents, and therapist.

I was given a book by my former therapist this and I thought of your journey (as well as my own and a few others) as I read through it laughing and criying. You are not alone in revisiting a situation time and again. In the book, Up From The Pavement, even a practicing therapist with a PhD had difficulty sharing candy in her Halloween bucket with her hospital roommate. They were adults. She put her journey on a private blog (after a motorcycle crash) that left her getting various comments like you have received. I have not been able to read the last 60 pages yet, it I look forward to how she let go - or maybe she didn’t. I do know she has a wonderful life and pays her gift of life forward.

Good luck to you.

I have also posted before to having a friendship with a former therapist. My experience has been the opposite of another poster. We have had a wonderful, caring and loving relationship as good friends. Do I miss what we had before as therapist and client? Rarely. Maybe, our friendship has endured because she is the same sweet and crazy person she was in therapy. She is the same person I had as a therapist and I have not felt a power imbalance from day one of our friendship. She has and I know she will help me through whatever I need like a good friend and I would do the same for her and have to an extent. Like any friendship, former therapist and client friendships work or they don’t work and that’s okay.

I want to respond to the rest of the posts that I didn't get to before.
FJ, in my session today when I told T I was sad about not being able to be her friend she had me tell her where in my body I feel the sadness. I was present with her and able to do that. At first I didn't want to bring up the subject because I told her I would get hurt. She laughed when I told her I was radically accepting that I am not going to accept not being her friend. She thought that meant I was accepting it. It turned into something humorous but she wasn't making fun of me.

Thank you, kecanoe. Today I feel good about my relationship with my T. I told her we don't have to be friends because I felt better when she shared something about how she was feeling today and why. That was good enough for me. Then we got into the "let's find another word to describe our relationship". She's really trying to meet me more than halfway with this, which is why I like my T so much!

TY, stopdog. I like your advice!

TY.

I find it interesting to read about post therapy friendships so you are definitely not hijacking my thread! I don't think post therapy friendships usually work out. All my Ts said we couldn't ever be friends, even after therapy was over.

Thank you very much!

I'm glad you like your new T. I'm not sure if my T has blurred the lines; she's open with everyone, she said. Definitely not blank slate! She admitted she wasn't sure how much she could disclose to me so as not to feed my obsession, or in her terms, "wanting to merge with her." She apologized for saying the words "I'm not going to tell you" about why she was distracted. I know enough now to satisfy me. She and I know I get triggered by feeling left out and we know where that comes from in my past, at least as much as we're ever going to figure out. I think it's going to be better now.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply and your compliments to me. I appreciate them. I agree with many of your points, especially that accepting the way things are for me in therapy is the best way to proceed. By not fighting what I don't want to accept, in a way I accept it. That's what T told me today! It started T thinking about finding another word for our relationship instead of friend, after we discussed it. So some good is coming from my feelings and thoughts. It's true I can't get what I want from my friends, but I can get some of it. I have to accept that too. Radical acceptance is hard but freeing.

I'm sorry you're disappointed with your T. The fantasy is not always the same as the reality. My T would most likely disappoint me, too, but I know her specific traits would still be there. Yours is a cautionary tale but I'm sorry it happened to you the way it did.

You make excellent points!

Thank you. That's very interesting!

I agree. I'm so glad my T is open to my discussing our relationship and making small changes in how she relates to me. She told me she had feelings for her Ts, not exactly like mine, but she does understand.

Possibly, though I don't understand exactly what you are saying. The way I relate to my T isn't distracting from my life problems. My problems are very clear. I agree that I shouldn't post so much about my sessions here, that maybe that is reinforcing the cycle. That's hard to carry out, though.

Thank you! I tried to find that book but it seems like it costs a lot of money, and it's only online? It sounded interesting.

You are very fortunate that your friendship with a former T worked out. I think that's unusual but I'm happy for you. Thanks for sharing.

—she wants you to work on finding real friends aside from her. Often they don’t spell things out because we would resist that also. What a hard job it must be. I prefer a lot of clarity, like a workbook w goals, but sometimes they just have to be soothing without causing dependency. Hey, I can’t even train a dog, too impatient. I would be a horrible therapist.