[rainbow8]

T told me that I have my life and she has hers and they don't cross. And that we aren't friends. She keeps saying she's been in therapy too. I emailed her that unless she was strongly attached to her T and wanted T to be her mother, sister, friend or partner, and wanted to "be in her T's life, she will NEVER understand me! I wrote that I'm angry and sad for having my feelings, but I do not want to accept that we aren't friends. I said I pretend a lot!

So, I felt better telling and writing her how I feel. I did not do that for drama. I did it because that's where I am and I had to get it out once and for all.

That was not my entire session! T had me find 3 things in the room that I see, 2 things I hear, and 1 feeling in my body that doesn't hurt. She wants me to do that every day. She also gave me a weird pamphlet about pain. How it's not in the tissues as much as in the brain. I'm in a lot of physical pain these days.

[here today]

So sorry that you don't feel understood by your T. I didn't either. When I first started going to therapy I didn't even know that I wanted to be understood, although I think at some point along the way I thought that they were supposed to understand me. Which, of course, is different.

I think that I also pretended and lived in emotionally in a fantasy world that was so "real", the way things were "supposed to" be. And I wasn't even aware of that. So at least it sounds to me like you're doing good to recognize when you're pretending!

I hope that putting your frustration in words and getting it out will be a good step forward for you.

[ruh roh]

This may be as far as it goes for you, then, since there is no way of turning your relationship into something it can never be. Aside from that, are you okay with using therapy to do the things it can help with, like coping with health issues and getting older?

It sounds like your therapist has a good head on her shoulders, and that is exactly the kind of therapist you need.

I have been and am strongly attached to my T, I do fantasise about him being my father, friend

Possible trigger:

and sometimes my lover

so I do think I understand you.
But there comes a point that, if I don't hold both my fantasies and the reality in my awareness, the therapy will no longer be useful.
Transference is there to tell us something. If it becomes our only reality (ie we don't on some level accept and acknowledge that it isn't reality) we can't hear what the transference is trying to tell us. We can't take care of the young parts if we can't step outside of the intense feelings and listen to them.
I know it is horrendously hard work (I am in the midst of it myself) and it feels counterintuitive to hold two realities and give them both space and respect, but unless you find space for that (as my T put it yesterday, finding the space where fantasy and reality coexist) then I fear all this pain will lead to yet more pain, not healing. Because hearing the transference and becoming aware of what it is telling you is such an important part of healing the wounds of earlier years.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Why is the reality of not being friends with your T so painful? And why do you place so much importance on the word "friend". Friend is just one type of relationship. Why can't you accept the relationship you do have with your T as special?

Originally Posted by Runcible Spoon

I have been and am strongly attached to my T, I do fantasise about him being my father, friend

Possible trigger:

and sometimes my lover

so I do think I understand you.
But there comes a point that, if I don't hold both my fantasies and the reality in my awareness, the therapy will no longer be useful.
Transference is there to tell us something. If it becomes our only reality (ie we don't on some level accept and acknowledge that it isn't reality) we can't hear what the transference is trying to tell us. We can't take care of the young parts if we can't step outside of the intense feelings and listen to them.
I know it is horrendously hard work (I am in the midst of it myself) and it feels counterintuitive to hold two realities and give them both space and respect, but unless you find space for that (as my T put it yesterday, finding the space where fantasy and reality coexist) then I fear all this pain will lead to yet more pain, not healing. Because hearing the transference and becoming aware of what it is telling you is such an important part of healing the wounds of earlier years.

Thank you for this... me being in the midst of transference-y struggles myself right now. The holding both the fantasy and the reality at the same time bit. Makes so much sense to me! Cuz that's when I get into my deepest work .... When I'm able to do that... Never realized what I was doing.... thank you !

[Mike_J]

My therapist has told me she isn't going to be my "paid friend" hurt more than a bit to hear that but I do understand.

[ElectricManatee]

I think there is a part of me that wants to be my T's friend. Actually no, I mostly want to be her (adult) child, and I know it will never happen, even if I really, really want it. But I also believe that I have a good, skilled therapist and that she really cares about her job and sees her work as a big part of what gives her life meaning. So I try to take some of the longing for closeness and connection and really pour it into going deep in therapy, bringing up all the feelings I have about events and people in my life. I try to be vulnerable and take everything I want to work on and put it on the table for her to see, even when that's scary and stressful. I have found that this gives the energy and longing an outlet that feels healthy and productive for both of us. I know that my T is so impressed with the work I'm doing and honored to be a part of my journey. That's not something either of us could do if we were friends, but it is so special and important to us. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it helps me a lot to think about what the therapist/client relationship is, rather than what it isn't.

[Anastasia~]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I think there is a part of me that wants to be my T's friend. Actually no, I mostly want to be her (adult) child, and I know it will never happen, even if I really, really want it. But I also believe that I have a good, skilled therapist and that she really cares about her job and sees her work as a big part of what gives her life meaning. So I try to take some of the longing for closeness and connection and really pour it into going deep in therapy, bringing up all the feelings I have about events and people in my life. I try to be vulnerable and take everything I want to work on and put it on the table for her to see, even when that's scary and stressful. I have found that this gives the energy and longing an outlet that feels healthy and productive for both of us. I know that my T is so impressed with the work I'm doing and honored to be a part of my journey. That's not something either of us could do if we were friends, but it is so special and important to us. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it helps me a lot to think about what the therapist/client relationship is, rather than what it isn't.

ElectricManatee--
Thanks so much for this!!

Rainbow--
I hope you can find a way to work through this, it sounds really painful.

[unaluna]

Runcible, such a wise post! And pose. Ie position. Why not take that attitude towards our loved ones, to adore them and respect them, but not crowd them or feel we have to approve of them. (Unless youre raising / teaching kids, then yeah some judgment is appropriate.)

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

So, I felt better telling and writing her how I feel. I did not do that for drama. I did it because that's where I am and I had to get it out once and for all.

What struck me is where you say you had to get out your feelings “once and for all.” Haven’t you had similar versions of this conversation with your T many times? It seems like you may be stuck, repeating this conversation over and over without really resolving it— by accepting the reality of the T relationship.

I don’t know if my experience will be useful here, but I’ll share it. My T and I actually did become casual friends after therapy, and it has been pretty disappointing. I liked my relationship with her in therapy so much better!! In therapy, she paid attention to me, she remembered what I shared, she showed up on time, she kept appointments, she made me feel better, etc. In real life, as her friend, she has not done the same. She is late, flaky, selfish, self-absorbed, inattentive, a bad listener, and..honestly... kind of boring. She’s not a bad person; just a regular, person who has their flaws, like we all do. The kind of relationship we have with T feels special because the attention is on you. It makes you feel really cared about. But, when T is off the clock, they don’t pay that level of attention to their friends or family much of the time. Sad but true. I don’t think you really want to be T’s friend; you want someone to pay attention to you in that way more of the time! Trust me, I do too. Not my ex-T. But I really miss having that kind of attention. The best way to get it is to form friendships with people in real life, several people, who meet some part of that need. You can’t depend on just one person for that; it’s impossible. But if you develop more relationships with more quality people, you may get more of that in your life.

There are a lot of good posts in this thread. Good luck Rainbow!

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by here today

So sorry that you don't feel understood by your T. I didn't either. When I first started going to therapy I didn't even know that I wanted to be understood, although I think at some point along the way I thought that they were supposed to understand me. Which, of course, is different.

I think that I also pretended and lived in emotionally in a fantasy world that was so "real", the way things were "supposed to" be. And I wasn't even aware of that. So at least it sounds to me like you're doing good to recognize when you're pretending!

I hope that putting your frustration in words and getting it out will be a good step forward for you.

Thanks. I don't know why I am focusing on this now. I know it's better that my T is my T. I'm rebelling against something, or just plain angry about my life.

Originally Posted by ruh roh

This may be as far as it goes for you, then, since there is no way of turning your relationship into something it can never be. Aside from that, are you okay with using therapy to do the things it can help with, like coping with health issues and getting older?

Yes, I like using my T for stability. m know her for 7 years. That's a long time.

Originally Posted by scaredandconfused

It sounds like your therapist has a good head on her shoulders, and that is exactly th

e kind of therapist you need.

Yes, my T I'd a good one!

Originally Posted by Runcible Spoon

I have been and am strongly attached to my T, I do fantasise about him being my father, friend

Possible trigger:

and sometimes my lover

so I do think I understand you.
But there comes a point that, if I don't hold both my fantasies And the reality in my awareness, the therapy will no longer be useful.
Transference is there to tell us something. If it becomes our only reality (ie we don't on some level accept and acknowledge that it isn't reality) we can't hear what the transference is trying to tell us. We can't take care of the young parts if we can't step outside of the intense feelings and listen to them.
I know it is horrendously hard work (I am in the midst of it myself) and it feels counterintuitive to hold two realities and give them both space and respect, but unless you find space for that (as my T put it yesterday, finding the space where fantasy and reality coexist) then I fear all this pain will lead to yet more pain, not healing. Because hearing the transference and becoming aware of what it is telling you is such an important part of healing the wounds of earlier years.

Thank you, Runcible Spoon. I think I know what the transference is telling me. I want someone like T in my
life.

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

Why is the reality of not being friends with your T so painful? And why do you place so much importance on the word "friend". Friend is just one type of relationship. Why can't you accept the relationship you do have with your T as special?

I thought I accepted the reality of the situation but something is blocking me. I do have a special relationship with my T. I'm not sure why I'm feeling the way I do.

Originally Posted by ArtieSwimsOn

Thank you for this... me being in the midst of transference-y struggles myself right now. The holding both the fantasy and the reality at the same time bit. Makes so much sense to me! Cuz that's when I get into my deepest work .... When I'm able to do that... Never realized what I was doing.... thank you !

You will get through this! Thanks for understanding.

Originally Posted by Mike_J

My therapist has told me she isn't going to be my "paid friend" hurt more than a bit to hear that but I do understand.

I know!

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I think there is a part of me that wants to be my T's friend. Actually no, I mostly want to be her (adult) child, and I know it will never happen, even if I really, really want it. But I also believe that I have a good, skilled therapist and that she really cares about her job and sees her work as a big part of what gives her life meaning. So I try to take some of the longing for closeness and connection and really pour it into going deep in therapy, bringing up all the feelings I have about events and people in my life. I try to be vulnerable and take everything I want to work on and put it on the table for her to see, even when that's scary and stressful. I have found that this gives the energy and longing an outlet that feels healthy and productive for both of us. I know that my T is so impressed with the work I'm doing and honored to be a part of my journey. That's not something either of us could do if we were friends, but it is so special and important to us. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it helps me a lot to think about what the therapist/client relationship is, rather than what it isn't.

Originally Posted by Anastasia~

ElectricManatee--
Thanks so much for this!!

Rainbow--
I hope you can find a way to work through this, it sounds really painful.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Runcible, such a wise post! And pose. Ie position. Why not take that attitude towards our loved ones, to adore them and respect them, but not crowd them or feel we have to approve of them. (Unless youre raising / teaching kids, then yeah some judgment is appropriate.)

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

What struck me is where you say you had to get out your feelings “once and for all.” Haven’t you had similar versions of this conversation with your T many times? It seems like you may be stuck, repeating this conversation over and over without really resolving it— by accepting the reality of the T relationship.

I don’t know if my experience will be useful here, but I’ll share it. My T and I actually did become casual friends after therapy, and it has been pretty disappointing. I liked my relationship with her in therapy so much better!! In therapy, she paid attention to me, she remembered what I shared, she showed up on time, she kept appointments, she made me feel better, etc. In real life, as her friend, she has not done the same. She is late, flaky, selfish, self-absorbed, inattentive, a bad listener, and..honestly... kind of boring. She’s not a bad person; just a regular, person who has their flaws, like we all do. The kind of relationship we have with T feels special because the attention is on you. It makes you feel really cared about. But, when T is off the clock, they don’t pay that level of attention to their friends or family much of the time. Sad but true. I don’t think you really want to be T’s friend; you want someone to pay attention to you in that way more of the time! Trust me, I do too. Not my ex-T. But I really miss having that kind of attention. The best way to get it is to form friendships with people in real life, several people, who meet some part of that need. You can’t depend on just one person for that; it’s impossible. But if you develop more relationships with more quality people, you may get more of that in your life.

[Myrto]

Every week you seem to have the same « insight » about therapy: my therapist and I aren’t friends, I am not part of her life, I wish the relationship could be more than what it is.
Every week. If I recall you have been seeing this therapist for 7 years, shouldn’t you be past that at this point? You don’t seem to accept that she is your therapist and nothing more.
Honestly I don’t think you ever will.
You are going in circles.
But I think you get something out of this and so does your therapist or she wouldn’t keep seeing you even if you keep rehashing the same exact thing every damn week.

[Amyjay]

I agree it is the same cycle and the same insight over and over. But what you get out of putting yourself through this is greater than the both the monetary cost and the emotional pain it causes you. So I suppose it is "worth" it.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thank you, Runcible Spoon. I think I know what the transference is telling me. I want someone like T in my
life.

In all honestly rainbow, I'm not sure you do know what the transference is telling you. Transference isn't usually about here-and-now desires. If it was about wanting a friend like her, I doubt the feelings would have this intensity and ferocity.
Transference is much more likely to be a young part trying to tell you what needs were unmet back then, what pain she underwent, so that the adult parts have an opportunity to step back, hear and recognise those needs in the here-and-now. Then you can find healthy ways to meet those needs which do not end up damaging your current life. Because you will no longer be acting from unconscious desires.
To use my example, my intense and consuming love for my therapist has become ever stronger since I have allowed my teenage part into the room. This information has allowed me to focus on my teenage years, and I think about how those years felt for me in relation to the feelings I feel towards my therapist now. I have discovered that I buried a great deal of longing for my absent mother and that I searched for love by instigating sexual relationships with older men. Allowing those feelings and patterns to reemerge in a safe space has allowed me to better understand my inexplicable self loathing and assuredness that I would be abandoned. Now those feelings and their origins are conscious I can reexamine them with new evidence from my current life.
This is only my example of my transference. The nature of and story behind yours will be different. But it is there to be discovered and only can be when you acknowledge it isn't about here and now desires.

Originally Posted by Runcible Spoon

In all honestly rainbow, I'm not sure you do know what the transference is telling you. Transference isn't usually about here-and-now desires. If it was about wanting a friend like her, I doubt the feelings would have this intensity and ferocity.
Transference is much more likely to be a young part trying to tell you what needs were unmet back then, what pain she underwent, so that the adult parts have an opportunity to step back, hear and recognise those needs in the here-and-now. Then you can find healthy ways to meet those needs which do not end up damaging your current life. Because you will no longer be acting from unconscious desires.
To use my example, my intense and consuming love for my therapist has become ever stronger since I have allowed my teenage part into the room. This information has allowed me to focus on my teenage years, and I think about how those years felt for me in relation to the feelings I feel towards my therapist now. I have discovered that I buried a great deal of longing for my absent mother and that I searched for love by instigating sexual relationships with older men. Allowing those feelings and patterns to reemerge in a safe space has allowed me to better understand my inexplicable self loathing and assuredness that I would be abandoned. Now those feelings and their origins are conscious I can reexamine them with new evidence from my current life.
This is only my example of my transference. The nature of and story behind yours will be different. But it is there to be discovered and only can be when you acknowledge it isn't about here and now desires.

Now that's therapy.

[MoxieDoxie]

I have no desire to be this new T's friend but was obsessed with my ex-T. Now I do not know if that means my inner child has matured, I am in recovery or it says something about him and that we have not build a rapour yet.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I think there is a part of me that wants to be my T's friend. Actually no, I mostly want to be her (adult) child, and I know it will never happen, even if I really, really want it. But I also believe that I have a good, skilled therapist and that she really cares about her job and sees her work as a big part of what gives her life meaning. So I try to take some of the longing for closeness and connection and really pour it into going deep in therapy, bringing up all the feelings I have about events and people in my life. I try to be vulnerable and take everything I want to work on and put it on the table for her to see, even when that's scary and stressful. I have found that this gives the energy and longing an outlet that feels healthy and productive for both of us. I know that my T is so impressed with the work I'm doing and honored to be a part of my journey. That's not something either of us could do if we were friends, but it is so special and important to us. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it helps me a lot to think about what the therapist/client relationship is, rather than what it isn't.

Thank you. I have thought that too, how unique and special my relationship with my T is. For some reason I'm stuck right now. T always tells me how far I've come. I'm glad you found a way to reconcile your wants and the reality of therapy.

Originally Posted by Anastasia~

ElectricManatee--
Thanks so much for this!!

Rainbow--
I hope you can find a way to work through this, it sounds really painful.

Thank you! I sure hope I do. I appreciate your acknowledgement of my pain very much.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

What struck me is where you say you had to get out your feelings “once and for all.” Haven’t you had similar versions of this conversation with your T many times? It seems like you may be stuck, repeating this conversation over and over without really resolving it— by accepting the reality of the T relationship.

I don’t know if my experience will be useful here, but I’ll share it. My T and I actually did become casual friends after therapy, and it has been pretty disappointing. I liked my relationship with her in therapy so much better!! In therapy, she paid attention to me, she remembered what I shared, she showed up on time, she kept appointments, she made me feel better, etc. In real life, as her friend, she has not done the same. She is late, flaky, selfish, self-absorbed, inattentive, a bad listener, and..honestly... kind of boring. She’s not a bad person; just a regular, person who has their flaws, like we all do. The kind of relationship we have with T feels special because the attention is on you. It makes you feel really cared about. But, when T is off the clock, they don’t pay that level of attention to their friends or family much of the time. Sad but true. I don’t think you really want to be T’s friend; you want someone to pay attention to you in that way more of the time! Trust me, I do too. Not my ex-T. But I really miss having that kind of attention. The best way to get it is to form friendships with people in real life, several people, who meet some part of that need. You can’t depend on just one person for that; it’s impossible. But if you develop more relationships with more quality people, you may get more of that in your life.

Yes, I've had similar conversations but it used to be wanting to be a baby or child in T's family. Maybe this is progress? I was more honest in my email. It felt different. T hasn't been validating my physical pain the way I want. Could be that too. Yes, sharing your experience with being a friend to your ex-T is helpful to me. Thank you! I do know that T would be different as a friend. I have to focus on that knowledge more. Yes, you are correct in my wanting more of what T gives me. I have a couple of good friends who fit that category but I don't want to wear them out! They have problems too! So here's where I need to say "I can never wear T out because I'm her job". In a good way. I do believe that but at the same time the reality of therapy triggers me.

Originally Posted by Rayne_

There are a lot of good posts in this thread. Good luck Rainbow!

Thanks, Rayne.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Myrto

Every week you seem to have the same « insight » about therapy: my therapist and I aren’t friends, I am not part of her life, I wish the relationship could be more than what it is.
Every week. If I recall you have been seeing this therapist for 7 years, shouldn’t you be past that at this point? You don’t seem to accept that she is your therapist and nothing more.
Honestly I don’t think you ever will.
You are going in circles.
But I think you get something out of this and so does your therapist or she wouldn’t keep seeing you even if you keep rehashing the same exact thing every damn week.

Okay. I agree but my therapy hasn't been about this for a while. It's been about stresses in my life and physical pain. It's been about relationships with others. I choose not to post about those things because they aren't about the therapy process. So I should be past this. Hearing that isn't helpful even if it's true. "Shoulds" aren't helpful to anyone.

Originally Posted by Amyjay

I agree it is the same cycle and the same insight over and over. But what you get out of putting yourself through this is greater than the both the monetary cost and the emotional pain it causes you. So I suppose it is "worth" it.

Well, going over and over may result in a different outcome. Radical acceptance of my not wanting the reality may make me want to change. I don't like my feelings particularly but that's what they are.

Originally Posted by Runcible Spoon

In all honestly rainbow, I'm not sure you do know what the transference is telling you. Transference isn't usually about here-and-now desires. If it was about wanting a friend like her, I doubt the feelings would have this intensity and ferocity.
Transference is much more likely to be a young part trying to tell you what needs were unmet back then, what pain she underwent, so that the adult parts have an opportunity to step back, hear and recognise those needs in the here-and-now. Then you can find healthy ways to meet those needs which do not end up damaging your current life. Because you will no longer be acting from unconscious desires.
To use my example, my intense and consuming love for my therapist has become ever stronger since I have allowed my teenage part into the room. This information has allowed me to focus on my teenage years, and I think about how those years felt for me in relation to the feelings I feel towards my therapist now. I have discovered that I buried a great deal of longing for my absent mother and that I searched for love by instigating sexual relationships with older men. Allowing those feelings and patterns to reemerge in a safe space has allowed me to better understand my inexplicable self loathing and assuredness that I would be abandoned. Now those feelings and their origins are conscious I can reexamine them with new evidence from my current life.
This is only my example of my transference. The nature of and story behind yours will be different. But it is there to be discovered and only can be when you acknowledge it isn't about here and now desires.

Thank you. Over and over I've been told it's because of unmet needs from the past, mostly because of my mother and not having a good fit. Also her being overprotective and anxious. My T always says it's a young part and asks "What does that part need from you?" Usually it's just to be loved. Accepted. Be noticed. I've discussed being rejected by peers. I don't know if all that has helped or not if I still want T so much. I'm better than I used to be. I don't have difficulty leaving sessions like I used to have, for example. I do know it's not about my T but I can't get past wanting it to be.

Originally Posted by MoxieDoxie

I have no desire to be this new T's friend but was obsessed with my ex-T. Now I do not know if that means my inner child has matured, I am in recovery or it says something about him and that we have not build a rapour yet.

Thank you. I didn't have this problem with one T. Sometimes it's just the person and how they affect you.

[rainbow8]

I realize most people are frustrated with me. I'm sorry.

[Favorite Jeans]

I think Runcible Spoon explains so well about figuring out what very intense longing you're trying to address. I know you've talked about having been a preemie and not having had the holding you needed. I'm sure that had an impact but I suspect there's more.

The other thing I wonder about is grieving. Can you sit with your immense sadness that T cannot be what you wish she could? Can you just let the pain of that wash over you and breathe through it and feel all the angry, miserable feelings that come with it and keep breathing? Just be sad. It is sad. Your T can't be your friend. Don't email her, don't try to make her understand. Don't try to make anyone understand. Just feel how sad you are and accept it and be gentle with that feeling. The intensity of that grief dissipates but you do have to feel it. Don't fight it anymore.

[kecanoe]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I realize most people are frustrated with me. I'm sorry.

I'm not frustrated with you, Rainbow. Like you, I am making baby steps toward independence from my T1. And sometimes I go backwards. I know that one of the reasons I still see T1 is because I just don't want him out of my life.

I think it is fine to go over and back over issues like being dependent on Ts. Some of us never got that intense attention from our parents and it does just feel good to get that attention. I'm not sure that there is a "resolve" to be had. For me, I keep seeing T1 because it lowers my suicide risk. Yeah, it's expensive. Yeah, it doesn't seem like we are really addressing my "stuff". On the other hand, I've tried drugs, alcohol, men, overeating, and probably some other stuff. It is definitely better than an addiction!

I don't know that I agree that the goal of therapy is to not need to see a T anymore. If that happens, fine. But that is not my goal. They tell me that will happen. We'll see.

I guess what I am saying is that it is fine to be in therapy with whoever you want for as long as you want. Only you know if it is better than not seeing T. I've just emerged from 6 months of insisting that I don't want the goals that T3 thinks I should have, so maybe I am sensitive on this issue. But as my daughter would say, "You do You".