Therapy failure

(((Here today))) Have you made a list? Seriously. I was going to ask you yesterday to join a "write your life story" class. I made a list in the mid 90's (before prozac et al) of ALL the weird incidents of my life up till then. I think it was like 100? Idk.

I USED to think i was an expert at therapy. Now i think im an expert at telling the story of my life. It feels like to me that you are at a point where something changes. A guy i worked with once said to me, "oh no, you still think youre getting somewhere in life?" We were both in our forties. Hes like, "i gave that fantasy up long ago!" I was taken aback, but i didnt change.

This is YOUR life's work. There are guides out there.

I know one who’s like this even when she’s off duty. She gives unrequested therapy and accosts others with inflated boasting. Her #metoo story was about how beautiful and awesome she is. She wants to be seen as a goddess.

I kinda sorta get what you're talking about and agree with what I bolded. I had a weird incident happen last fall -- well I kinda think it was weird, like to think it was weird. Other people might not, but. . .

I keep remembering it, try to keep remembering it, maybe if I'm lucky some others like it will happen? Is that sorta what you are talking about? Or something else?

Could you elaborate? Maybe tell some more of your story? In a PM if you prefer.

Hey, my story is all out here! I feel like im pulling teeth trying to get something from you. We have both given big picture, some details...

What is this thing that happened to you? Why not tell us about it? I dont mean, "tell us about it." I mean, "why ARENT you telling us about it?" What is holding you back? (THEN, yeah, maybe, tell us about it.)

Why does OP have to give you something? Why would anyone?
How would it help?
What would hold me back is how much this site is always telling people it is all their fault how much the client fails and that therapists are perfect.

Its not even about therapy, really. Except the OP says she is unhappy. I am saying, the best tools she has are at the ends of her hands, her legs, and maybe her neck! Also, a t can be a tool. I think we are in agreement again!

Hey, i pooped like 4 times yesterday. Anyone will be hard pressed to pop my cheerful bubble. Except if my landlord yells at me, that might do it.

Hi HT, thanks so much for the sharing this extensive story! I will have feedback later on a few things, just need to take care of a lot of work stuff now. One thing though: if I were you with this story, it would be 100% clear to me that therapy never really worked much to address what you truly wanted to address (except the Anorexia in the beginning), and I would completely close down the whole idea for present/future, except lessons and conclusions that could be helpful. There is no way I would try (even consider) therapy again after all this and, in that context, it is not important at all whose "fault" it was that therapy was not useful for you really. I would also think it's just a waste of mental energy at this point to cultivate resentments and think about what exactly happened with the Ts. You don't even have those painful attachment feelings that keep many people from moving on.

It sounds like you are feeling somewhat better these days, so you can certainly function without therapy and use alternative resources. I also don't think it is ever late to try new things as long as we are alive and able to try.

More later

Okay, here is a bit of follow-up. So the main reason I asked earlier to share some of the specific aggressive/"evil" interactions was because based on everything else I see from you, HT, it was so hard for me to imagine that you would be truly evil and destructive on someone. I was more thinking that you perhaps see those aggressive impulses and occasional acts way worse and you torture yourself thinking it's an evil part.

Now reading the story, it actually confirmed that feeling quite a bit. What you describe from your therapy experiences, to me, sounds quite benign impulses that you sometimes acted out. But people act out similar momentary emotions in very similar ways in everyday relationships all the time. We sometimes overreact and voice it, and next moment calm down and move on. This is primarily what I see in your story, nothing abnormal or unusual even. Maybe there was more, but what you shared does not even involve much criticism presented to your Ts or putting them down in complex ways, they are more just impulses that come and go quickly. Of course who likes to be called a b****, but people call each-other names all the time in heated moments.

What I personally consider more evil behavior is complex, persistent manipulation, gaslighting, self-centered undermining someone else's sense of self or wellbeing. That cold malevolence (passive aggression?) as well. Are you prone to those things? Does not seem to, from your story and from the way you communicate on this forum.

Also, for me personally, it wasn't your last T's reactions and eventual termination that sounded inappropriate, she did not do it abruptly after all and tried to continue to engage for a while. More the T who said "I thought you were better than that". I understand the impulsive annoyance since you did provoke her, but that is something very immature to say, especially by a T to a client.

Anyhow, my main point with this discussion is trying to suggest to be less hard on yourself and how you judge occasional feelings and aggressive impulses. It sounds like you reject them yourself quite persistently. I can tell you that I said much worse things to my first T - they weren't impulses but I criticized him both as a T and as a person in sophisticated, thought-out ways that really cut into some of his insecurities and compensatory behaviors, and made them transparent. I can't blame him much for reacting strongly and yet I don't think I was evil or even wrong to do it. I have a tendency to react to manipulation of different kinds similarly and, while it can come across strong and piercing, it is primarily self-protection and the reason why manipulators don't usually go far with me. I also refuse to see those reactions and protection as bad parts just because what is voiced is negative/critical, it's just elements of a whole and is there for a good reason, which is far from mere destruction.

On the whole topic of working on creating a more solid sense of self that you often bring up - I really wonder if that is possible through therapy at all, for anyone? I won't debate it though as, I admit, I don't even understand the lack of sense of self from the inside. I think it's one of those things that people who don't experience directly cannot truly comprehend. And perhaps this is part of the reason why Ts are often not too helpful with it? It's not something one can easily understand simply via psychological knowledge and training. But in my mind, one's sense of self develops over time through complex interactions with the world and experiences. How could one single relationship, which is as limited as therapy, achieve that?

Of course I know what I wrote here is highly subjective, it is my view. But I am quite certain that many other people would see it/you similarly.

Thanks.

This kind of "normal" social feedback was not available to me throughout the many years of "therapy" for a number of reasons -- I was withdrawn, anxious, and "weird" in high school after I came back from the mental hospital (I spent my junior year there) and even to a certain extent in college. And I probably didn't pick up on cues and nuances. My family was little help in understanding people and social interactions, and because of my temperament I may well could have benefitted from more help with that than some. Didn't need help with math, but probably could have used some better help with that.

Any therapy I was doing back then was focused on what was wrong with me. I focused on that, too, expecting that if I could get OK, then I could be more socially acceptable and things would go better. I was so focused inward I didn't see the outside world in lots of ways. Yes, sure, that was a "problem" of mine, that I was so self-absorbed, but I'm far from sure that a good way to help with that is more inward-focused "psycho-" therapy.

I don't think that a good way to effectively work on social identity and integration is psychotherapy either. Just think/talk about it and expect something to change. Therapy also made me just more self-absorbed and stuck in analysis paralysis, I am way too introspective even by default, it is often my go-to avoidance mechanism. I like the introspective nature of myself and it definitely helps to also be more socially competent, but there is a healthy dosage and there can be overdose.

My opinion is that the best way to improve social consciousness/skills and to feel more integrated into communities is to go out and experience it, no matter how awkward - and learn on the go. That way we can also learn to pick up social behaviors from others that do not come naturally. Choose people who are not overly insecure and can establish and maintain meaningful relationships - for me, this is how I feel socially secure and find healing experiences. Not with a therapist, simply by talking about my secrets and challenges. Of course this is hard to do when someone is depressed, I know it very well. For me, it can be being fully aware of what keeps me stuck and what I should do do get better, but impossible to somehow bridge the gap between awareness and constructive action. And this is my issue with therapy: it does not really encourage action, actually often the opposite (we are not supposed to act out). Just come and talk... and maybe magic happens.